Light carbine concept

Status
Not open for further replies.
Thanks, fireside44, and others who have taken the time to think over the concept.

Personally, I feel that .30 Carbine is overlooked and has the potential to be much more popular. It was designed from the start to be a low-recoil round fired from a light weapon by people who didn't get a lot of training or trigger time but needed something more effective and easier to use than .45 ACP from a Colt 1911. I grew up shooting all sorts of mostly vintage guns and the M1 carbine was always my favorite long gun--easy to shoot, not too loud (no ear protection back then), and confidence-inspiring. My thought was to go for a modern gun to keep all those positives without the high cost and reliability issues of an authentic (now very vintage) M1 carbine.

On the weight question, 5 lb is very doable. A stock GI-issue M1 carbine complete with sling, oiler, bayonet lug, magazine, and 15 rounds weighs under 6 lb. With no sling, oiler, or bayonet lug, a 10-round magazine, synthetic stock, and modern manufacturing materials and techniques, 5 lb is easy. John Garand's first (and eventually unsuccessful) entry into the competition that led to the M1 carbine weighed 4.9 lb in steel and wood complete with 5 round magazine (empty, I believe). See https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-rifle-program/garand-carbine/
 
Well if you're heart is set on 30 carbine go for it. The lack of popularity will hurt sales unless your weapon is priced affordably, like $500 max. I'd also make sure it's reliable with steel case ammo. But to succeed I think it better be something special that demands a second look for buyers with regard to .30 Carbine.

Since you were suggesting detachable mag models as well you may want to consider adding another caliber of two to bolster interest. Also, if mags aren't sub 30 bucks that's gonna be a deal breaker for many. Thanks to AR-15s there is little reason already to buy pistol caliber carbines because they often weigh more and the cartridge is less powerful and mags are cheap for AR. I can get a decent AR from S&W for 5-600 so there needs to be a reason, beside just ban states, for me to consider your offering. You're not selling steak you're selling sizzle, think about that.

Please don't take this condescendingly, but considering the growing female market for your gun. Make it AK stupid level easy to learn with good sights. Have some pink and baby blue stocks available for the kids and the ladies. Low recoil, easy to operate, and dad likes it too! Business is tough you'll need to exploit every angle your weapon can offer the end user over other more familiar offerings.
 
An AR, in 350 Legend, with a crappy "all state” lower and a Brownells 180 upper receiver so it won’t look ridiculous with the buffer tube sticking out.

I think that the Carbine would work in an AR, but the “new hotness” will always get better and more cutting edge support. I understand the love affair with wood, I am a carpenter, but the carbine was a tool and tools are better when they don’t warp crack or split and can be left for long periods basically neglected.
The magazine can be flush, but stripper clips are out. Why have a bunch of ancillary pieces to cart about? put them in magazines that are slim and light as a strip of Garand rounds.

If color is truly the litmus test of social acceptance the receivers can be Cerakoted Patriot Brown with wood stocks.:thumbup:
 
People have already tried to make the 30 Carbine round better, hence why the 5.7 Johnson exists.
 
cluttonfred said:
I feel that .30 Carbine is overlooked and has the potential to be much more popular.
Click to expand...

Let’s play a game - a game I’ve played with dozens of researchers, product developers, engineers, inventors, investors, and marketers for the last 16 years...

You have a feeling 30 carbine should be more popular in the modern market. Defend this feeling with an answer to one simple question:

“Why?”

If you can objectively defend your feeling with real market trends leaning towards a future where an investment in engineering, tooling, and marketing would hit a responsible ROI hurdle, then you have a product.

So, “why” is a novel design in .30 carbine superior to the market favored AR platforms, or other (relatively low market volume) PCC’s which have all gravitated either towards their corresponding brand pistol magazines or standardized to Glock magazines? Prove out some market trends which would even justify sending out market analysts to determine an estimated return. “Why” would a blind magazine, stripper clip fed firearm be preferred in today’s market over the ever-growing market of detachable magazine repeaters? What evidence do you have of any market support for a single modern model which has been fed by stripper clips? Why would your particular iteration, combining multiple design aspects which have each become independently obsolete rejuvenate these dead technologies? Why have other companies - professionals in their fields with generations of experience behind them - neglected this idea?

“I want one and I think it would be great” simply aren’t satisfactory answers to this question. So many folks fancy themselves inventors, and so many of them get emotionally invested in their “baby,” blind to how ugly it might really be to everyone else in the market - it’s unfortunate when creative energy is fully wasted on what will obviously be fruitless technologies.
 
Last edited:
Bfh_auto said:
The 30 carbine is not a great cartridge.

That with a wood stock would be my choice.
To me the 30 carbine is an in between. It sucks at everything.
Click to expand...

This is my thoughts as well, but everyone has different opinions.

One might as well go with a PCC in 40, 45, or 10mm. The 30 carbine leaves little benefit in the performance aspect to resurrect in lieu of said PCC calibers or better yet 7.62x39 or 300BO.

But if one must have a stripper clip fed internal box magazine with neutered "nanny state" features, I'll stand by my original suggestion of a SKS with a lightweight stock shooting a much more potent round than the 30 carbine.

I think there is a reason that the 30 carbine died with the m1 carbine.
 
Last edited:
Varminterror said:
Let’s play a game - a game I’ve played with dozens of researchers, product developers, engineers, inventors, investors, and marketers for the last 16 years...

You have a feeling 30 carbine should be more popular in the modern market. Defend this feeling with an answer to one simple question:

“Why?”

If you can objectively defend your feeling with real market trends leaning towards a future where an investment in engineering, tooling, and marketing would hit a responsible ROI hurdle, then you have a product.

So, “why” is a novel design in .30 carbine superior to the market favored AR platforms, or other (relatively low market volume) PCC’s which have all gravitated either towards their corresponding brand pistol magazines or standardized to Glock magazines? Prove out some market trends which would even justify sending out market analysts to determine an estimated return. “Why” would a blind magazine, stripper clip fed firearm be preferred in today’s market over the ever-growing market of detachable magazine repeaters? What evidence do you have of any market support for a single modern model which has been fed by stripper clips? Why would your particular iteration, combining multiple design aspects which have each become independently obsolete rejuvenate these dead technologies? Why have other companies - professionals in their fields with generations of experience behind them - neglected this idea?

“I want one and I think it would be great” simply aren’t satisfactory answers to this question. So many folks fancy themselves inventors, and so many of them get emotionally invested in their “baby,” blind to how ugly it might really be to everyone else in the market - it’s unfortunate when creative energy is fully wasted on what will obviously be fruitless technologies.
Click to expand...

Agreed. For me, I would love to have a modern rifle platform for the 7.62x25 or 9mm Largo. Will I get it? No, but its fun to dream.
 
Varminterror said:
Let’s play a game - a game I’ve played with dozens of researchers, product developers, engineers, inventors, investors, and marketers for the last 16 years...

You have a feeling 30 carbine should be more popular in the modern market. Defend this feeling with an answer to one simple question:

“Why?”

If you can objectively defend your feeling with real market trends leaning towards a future where an investment in engineering, tooling, and marketing would hit a responsible ROI hurdle, then you have a product.

So, “why” is a novel design in .30 carbine superior to the market favored AR platforms, or other (relatively low market volume) PCC’s which have all gravitated either towards their corresponding brand pistol magazines or standardized to Glock magazines? Prove out some market trends which would even justify sending out market analysts to determine an estimated return. “Why” would a blind magazine, stripper clip fed firearm be preferred in today’s market over the ever-growing market of detachable magazine repeaters? What evidence do you have of any market support for a single modern model which has been fed by stripper clips? Why would your particular iteration, combining multiple design aspects which have each become independently obsolete rejuvenate these dead technologies? Why have other companies - professionals in their fields with generations of experience behind them - neglected this idea?

“I want one and I think it would be great” simply aren’t satisfactory answers to this question. So many folks fancy themselves inventors, and so many of them get emotionally invested in their “baby,” blind to how ugly it might really be to everyone else in the market - it’s unfortunate when creative energy is fully wasted on what will obviously be fruitless technologies.
Click to expand...

Not to mention it’s old and has a boring name. Needs to be cool to make it, look at the other versions of the same round that failed before the marketing push and name made the 300 blackout more than just another flash in the pan.

With the right bullet, you could make one your 30 carbine..,
 
The problem with 30 carbine is not a problem of the round or the guns it was chambered for, but in its first and primary role as a military arm. It’s not adequate to use for defense against humans. As a small/medium game round it’s great. BUT there is a rub there, why would we want to bleed off power or add weight by making it semiauto when a simple lever, bolt, or pump would work. That leads to thinking more in the line of an unobtainable rifle, or a PCC lever which are typically little piggies on weight... but the Marlin 62 isn’t, and I have one. It’s actually one of my favorite guns. I haven’t gotten to use it much since I bought it, but I love it, and I like the direction of the original post.

The THOUGHT of the Blackhawk revolvers was a good one too, but the muzzle blast from using slow powders made that not such a great idea after all. 32 mag isnt so far off and uses pistol powders but it’s a good gun... hmmm.... whoodathunkit.... pistol powders in pistols and rifle powders in rifles... what silliness.
 
For a short range compact carbine woods gun I would get a Ruger Deerfield in 44 mag. I don't have any experience with the model, but would take it over a mini 30 since it has a push button safety, and would take it over an old ruger 44 carbine because it has a detachable mag for ease of loading/unloading. And I would put a red dot on it.
 
I appreciate the constructive feedback, thanks all, but I going to protest the idea that .30 Carbine is "not adequate to use for defense against humans." The ballistics put the .30 Carbine from a carbine ahead of .357 Magnum from a service revolver and real world experience from people like Jim Cirillo show that .30 Carbine with expanding bullets is very effective.
 
cluttonfred said:
The ballistics put the .30 Carbine from a carbine ahead of .357 Magnum from a service revolver
Click to expand...

I expect you already realize and understand, handguns have been proven to be orders of magnitude poorer stoppers of men than rifles, en mass. So the premise of a rifle which only slightly surpasses a handgun is underwhelming at best.

Naturally, notwithstanding is an entire market of firearm buyers who have no delusion of meeting human flesh in front of their rifles, such AR9’s, Sub-2000’s, and PC’s are popular for other pursuits. Which circles us back to my questions above - objectively, how is this .30 Carbine carbine supposed to supersede any of the existing models which have market-preferred chamberings and design features?
 
The ballistics put the .30 Carbine from a carbine ahead of .357 Magnum from a service revolver and real world experience from people like Jim Cirillo show that .30 Carbine with expanding bullets is very effective.
Click to expand...

I wonder what data Jim is using, I bet more people are killed by .22 long rifle rounds in a year than .30 carbine but that doesn’t make the former a better choice or the other worse. Data from service revolvers is undoubtedly going to be somewhat dated and not include rifle data.

Seems like an odd argument to me.
 
I don't know about the .30 Carbine, but I would like a fast-handling, woodsy-looking autoloader in .357, 10mm, and/or .44, with a tube or detachable rotary magazine holding 4-5 rounds. Not so much as a rail on it! Basically the Ruger .44 Carbine with bugs worked out, perhaps somewhat updated. A trim pump along the lines of the Rem. Model 14 would be cool, too.

While I'm daydreaming, what about offering .50 AE in both? :D
 
jmorris said:
I wonder what data Jim is using, I bet more people are killed by .22 long rifle rounds in a year than .30 carbine but that doesn’t make the former a better choice or the other worse. Data from service revolvers is undoubtedly going to be somewhat dated and not include rifle data.

Seems like an odd argument to me.
Click to expand...

He's responding to the post which says it's "not adequate". It's been shown to be very adequate with expanding bullets and I don't know why someone looking at the ballistics would assume otherwise. Most handguns can't fire 110 gr bullets at 1900+ feet per second. It can even match the energy of a number of .223 loads. Is it as good as a .223? Well, that wasn't the question.
 
cluttonfred said:
I appreciate the constructive feedback, thanks all, but I going to protest the idea that .30 Carbine is "not adequate to use for defense against humans." The ballistics put the .30 Carbine from a carbine ahead of .357 Magnum from a service revolver and real world experience from people like Jim Cirillo show that .30 Carbine with expanding bullets is very effective.
Click to expand...
Real world experience??? Why were so many carbines ditched in WW2? They would kill a man for sure, but they would not stop him. A hit with the 30 carbine let them fight for a few seconds before they realized they were dead in which time they could shoot, grenade, or stab a man. For defense, negative, and I don’t care if it’s a crackhead stealing your TV, a Japanese soldier on Midway, or a ticked off jealous husband, if somebody is intent on killing you, your firearm had damned well better stop them before they get a chance to kill you back. Your comment to the .357 magnum is a good point, it is favorable when compared to a handgun, but what is the common complaint about stopping effectiveness of a handgun?
 
Goosey said:
He's responding to the post which says it's "not adequate". It's been shown to be very adequate with expanding bullets and I don't know why someone looking at the ballistics would assume otherwise. Most handguns can't fire 110 gr bullets at 1900+ feet per second. It can even match the energy of a number of .223 loads. Is it as good as a .223? Well, that wasn't the question.
Click to expand...

Ballistics by the inch shows a few loads in 357mag pushing heavier bullets, faster than the 110gr 1900fps threshold FYI.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
 
Goosey said:
shown to be very adequate with expanding bullets
Click to expand...
Yes, with the caveat. Where do you buy .30usm1c ammunition with expanding bullets? Special ordered ammo, or handloads. Caveats also make other things great, like the Ford Pinto, a GREAT family car if you don’t get hit in the back. Or pet alligators, great guard critters as long as you keep your hands out of his mouth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

cluttonfred
  • Locked
Light carbine concept
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
kozak6
K
cluttonfred
  • Locked
50-state legal home defense carbine - a concept
2 3 4 5
Replies
104
Views
5K
Ed Ames
E
cluttonfred
  • Locked
  • Poll
Would you buy a modern carbine in... .30 Carbine?
2 3
Replies
65
Views
3K
LeonCarr
L
cluttonfred
  • Locked
Dream carbine...part 2
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
Dionysusigma
D
cluttonfred
  • Locked
Straight-blowback carbine in .30 Carbine?
2
Replies
32
Views
6K
justin22885
J
Back
Top