Lon Horiuchi A Spokesperson For HS Precision ?
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Deanimator
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Nah, I'm thinking more like the Kempeitai. Waco was Lon's minor attempt to emulate the Japanese Imperial Army's "Three Alls Policy" (kill all, loot all, burn all)
Deanimator
Member
Anybody who LIKES Lon Horiuchi should be considered too dangerously unstable to BE in law enforcement.
They'd better be thinking of the civilian marksman now, because a lot of us will be doing everything possible within the law to harm their business.
Deanimator
Member
What happened at Ruby Ridge is no more of a mystery than what happened at Malmedy. The only mystery is why people would dirty themselves in both cases defending the perpetrators.
TEDDY
Member
trolls
I note the organizations our resident troll has.very interesting.
I note the organizations our resident troll has.very interesting.
hankdatank1362
Member
Teddy, I wouldn't call someone with three times as many posts as yourself a "troll."
Mike (RCVPYemen) makes an interesting point. If even the prosecutor didn't think there was enough to make a case on, then there probably wasn't.
So Lon isn't a homicidal bastard (maybe). He was just a terribly inept decision maker and marksman, in a profession where you are prided on your judgement and accuracy.
I'm still suprised he wasn't charged with something. The "Whoops! I killed someone by accident!" defense wouldn't work for any of us, so it shouldn't work for him.
In any sense, HS Precision exercised terrible judgement in deciding to make Lon their endorser.
Mike (RCVPYemen) makes an interesting point. If even the prosecutor didn't think there was enough to make a case on, then there probably wasn't.
So Lon isn't a homicidal bastard (maybe). He was just a terribly inept decision maker and marksman, in a profession where you are prided on your judgement and accuracy.
I'm still suprised he wasn't charged with something. The "Whoops! I killed someone by accident!" defense wouldn't work for any of us, so it shouldn't work for him.
In any sense, HS Precision exercised terrible judgement in deciding to make Lon their endorser.
X-Rap
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Its disgusting to me to find out after all these years this POS has been promoted and given a plum job in the agency rather than been forced into retirement and obscurity or better prison. Only in the gov. does somebody accidently kill someone they have the crosshairs on, move on and help cause another shootout/stand off, then after a s**t storm of public trials and hearings not only walk away but keep his job and from the sounds of it be promoted to the upper levels of his department.
And they wonder why we don't really trust them
And they wonder why we don't really trust them
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Just a pet peeve, but in the United States, law enforcement officers are civilians too.
Guys- read that catalog page more carfefully. They did not hire that creep as a spokesman. They published a statement from a satisfied customer. The letter was written not for Horiuchi's personal perspective but by him as the then head of the FBI sniper program.
It's analagous to using a politico's endorsement. While the individual might suck, the title next to his name is really nice.
It's analagous to using a politico's endorsement. While the individual might suck, the title next to his name is really nice.
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X-Rap
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mp you are right, the letter is an endorsement. Do you think Frigidare would print an endorsement from Jeffrey Dahmer complimenting them on the quality of their refrigerators? Maybe Hitler sending a letter to Kohler praising their shower heads.
What HS did was stupid and I'll bet when the smoke clears we will discover that the 22 yr old marketing wiz that printed the letter knew only of his credentials as the FBI's top guy in the sniper program and nothing of his murderous past.
My guess is that some in the business see it only as that and care little of the history or quirks of those they serve and supply.
What HS did was stupid and I'll bet when the smoke clears we will discover that the 22 yr old marketing wiz that printed the letter knew only of his credentials as the FBI's top guy in the sniper program and nothing of his murderous past.
My guess is that some in the business see it only as that and care little of the history or quirks of those they serve and supply.
Treo
member
Whom you said you think you might have met
Everything else I agree with
Deanimator
Member
Kind of like Rheinhardt Heydrich's endorsement of IG Farben's product as a satisfied customer... that product being Zyklon-B... But hey, "Deputy Reichsprotektor of Bohemia and Moravia" is a REALLY snazzy title...
Deanimator
Member
At this point it's looking pretty certain. How many Infantry captain Horiuchis were there in the Army in '81?
Treo
member
Probably not many. When did he graduate the point?
BHP FAN
Member
This has GOT to be a bad dream...right?
mordechaianiliewicz
Member
Now, a boycott of HS Precision is definetely in order. But, in addition, I would say that they probably don't care that much about the civilian market.
As for Horiuchi.... the reason that they didn't (in Idaho) pursue this was due to chain of evidence reasons. This was an FBI job, which means the FBI had all the evidence. In a battle between Idaho vs. Lon Horiuchi it's really Idaho vs. The FBI. The FBI can hold out on evidence, Horiuchi can lie under oath, the matter can be appealed to a friendly court.... you get the picture.
Instead of go through all that, Idaho dropped it.
What is certain is that Lon Horiuchi should not have been an FBI sniper. Regardless of whether he was incompetent, or sociopathic, neither should be synonomous with Federal law enforcement.
I am not discounting your story of meeting Mr. Horiuchi, Deanimator, but what is it Horiuchi, said, did, etc. that gave you the impression that he would have been equally at home with a Japanese Kill and Rape Squad in Nanking pre-WWII as in rural Idaho killing white seperatists in cold blood?
As for Horiuchi.... the reason that they didn't (in Idaho) pursue this was due to chain of evidence reasons. This was an FBI job, which means the FBI had all the evidence. In a battle between Idaho vs. Lon Horiuchi it's really Idaho vs. The FBI. The FBI can hold out on evidence, Horiuchi can lie under oath, the matter can be appealed to a friendly court.... you get the picture.
Instead of go through all that, Idaho dropped it.
What is certain is that Lon Horiuchi should not have been an FBI sniper. Regardless of whether he was incompetent, or sociopathic, neither should be synonomous with Federal law enforcement.
I am not discounting your story of meeting Mr. Horiuchi, Deanimator, but what is it Horiuchi, said, did, etc. that gave you the impression that he would have been equally at home with a Japanese Kill and Rape Squad in Nanking pre-WWII as in rural Idaho killing white seperatists in cold blood?
suspicious package
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Maybe technically, but have you seen the way they are trained now?benezra said:
Randy Weaver was "selling" to the 'ATF - who entrapped him by insisting he cut a barrel below legal limit. All this in order to persuade him to infiltrate a group and become an informant. He refused, and that brought him up on the charges, then the raid.
I have met Randy Weaver in person. For the record, he is no nut, and he has what could be accurately described as a racialist view. I.E., he simply does not want to mix with colored. A passive personal choice.
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Just to hit a few points:
-you can't say "...just following orders" in defense of a bad LEO shooting. Each shot has to have real justification (ability, opportunity, jeopardy), just like any post about civilian self defense. LEO's are not military snipers, who can fire on combatants not engaged in hostile acts (you can shoot at an enemy soldier taking a leak).
suspicious package- "...but have you seen the way they are trained now?"
LEO training is regulated in State statutes. It is also reviewed by civilians to ensure compliance with all sorts of directives, i.e. test scores, content, annual or periodic re-certification, instructor credentials, etc. I don't know what the FEDS have in place for training, but I'm guessing it is pretty standard.
I'm amazed LH still has a job...at a minimum.
LAK- Entrapment is when you use undue pressure to make a person commit an act that they would not ordinarily do, like pretending to have a terminal illness (writhing in pain) and asking someone to get some controlled meds to ease your pain.
If the GOV said, "Chop these barrels or we'll rat you out to some dangerous friends of yours and tell them you're an informant" that would be a no-go. If I ask you to chop a barrel, with no strings, and afterwards try to have you "work off" your violation that is legal.
-you can't say "...just following orders" in defense of a bad LEO shooting. Each shot has to have real justification (ability, opportunity, jeopardy), just like any post about civilian self defense. LEO's are not military snipers, who can fire on combatants not engaged in hostile acts (you can shoot at an enemy soldier taking a leak).
suspicious package- "...but have you seen the way they are trained now?"
LEO training is regulated in State statutes. It is also reviewed by civilians to ensure compliance with all sorts of directives, i.e. test scores, content, annual or periodic re-certification, instructor credentials, etc. I don't know what the FEDS have in place for training, but I'm guessing it is pretty standard.
I'm amazed LH still has a job...at a minimum.
LAK- Entrapment is when you use undue pressure to make a person commit an act that they would not ordinarily do, like pretending to have a terminal illness (writhing in pain) and asking someone to get some controlled meds to ease your pain.
If the GOV said, "Chop these barrels or we'll rat you out to some dangerous friends of yours and tell them you're an informant" that would be a no-go. If I ask you to chop a barrel, with no strings, and afterwards try to have you "work off" your violation that is legal.
suspicious package
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Either you didn't understand my point or you didn't understand my point. The training is now militarized and centers around escalating to a physical confrontation followed by overwhelming force. Police training now subtly but heavily emphasizes a shutdown of conscience and a focus on following orders in the quest to force compliance from the citizen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have seen the result with my own two eyes. Most of us here have read dozens of current news stories with our own two eyes that confirm this.beatcop said:
The "test scores" you mention have no bearing on my point that the current training is not just bad, it is dangerous. You unwittingly admitted my point by referencing "all sorts of directives."
You totally misstated my point. You seem to think I am referring to incompetence when I am NOT. I am referring to a systematic problem with police training that has turned them from peace officers into militarized robots who are frequently control freaks with a statistically high rate of domestic violence.
The "all sorts of directives" are the standards of training...task, conditions, standards that are to achieved.
I think that a lot of organizations have taken a hard look at some situations like North Hollywood, Columbine, etc and have decided to meet a rifle with a rifle, so to speak, but I can't say that any of my training has even remotely appeared to endorse a shutdown of conscience.
You did hit on a key point though, "compliance" is the goal when force is applied. The force stops when compliance is achieved. That's the textbook answer...
Yes, there have been some big screw-ups. Those ruin public trust and confidence at a rate that can't be mended.
I think that a lot of organizations have taken a hard look at some situations like North Hollywood, Columbine, etc and have decided to meet a rifle with a rifle, so to speak, but I can't say that any of my training has even remotely appeared to endorse a shutdown of conscience.
You did hit on a key point though, "compliance" is the goal when force is applied. The force stops when compliance is achieved. That's the textbook answer...
Yes, there have been some big screw-ups. Those ruin public trust and confidence at a rate that can't be mended.
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