Long Distance Single Shot Rifle

Which "old world rifle" would you choose for 1000 yards shooting and why?

  • Winchester 1885 High Wall

    Votes: 30 30.9%
  • 1874 Sharps

    Votes: 38 39.2%
  • Remington #1 Rolling Block

    Votes: 11 11.3%
  • Springfield Trapdoor

    Votes: 8 8.2%
  • Other (please elaborate)

    Votes: 10 10.3%

  • Total voters
    97
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ArchAngelCD

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As the question states, which "old world rifle" would you choose for 1000 yards shooting and why? I'm thinking about buying something in the "old world" line of rifles but I can't decide which to buy. (or at least try to buy) I have no where right now to try and shoot 1000 yards but I can shoot them at a 400 yard range. I would just love to try and hit something 400 yards away with a big slow moving bullet like a 405gr 45-70 or even a 45-90. There are plenty of replica Winchesters and Sharps rifles out there and the Remington is available today from the Remington Custom Shop. I'm so confused!! :p

I would appreciate it if you would explain your choice so I can understand the virtues of each.

Thanks in advance...
 
A Gibbs-Farquharson, or the modern Ruger Number 1 updated variation. It has a much faster lock time than any of the old external hammer single shots.
 
Thats all well & good, but Ruger #1's are not legal in NRA or BPCRS sanctioned Black Powder matches because they are a modern design.

As for lock time?
The Winchester High-wall ain't no slouch.
However the Remington Rolling-Block and side-hammer Sharps are really slow in comparison.

And they win way more 1,000 yard & BP Silhouette matches then High-Walls.

rc
 
Probably because companies like Shiloh Sharps are building better off-the-shelf long range match rifles with better barrels then anyone else.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/

I can think of no advantage a Sharps action has over the Rolling-Block or High-Wall.

It's just that most of the Rolling-Block clones are coming from Italy and are not as well made as the Shiloh Sharps. Seems to me the old real ones with modern barrels do pretty darn good though.

The Japanese Winchester and Browning Hi-Walls with Badger barrels are very good too. But just not as much development work has been done with them, as there aren't that many top guns shooting them.


rc
 
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The Shiloh site is one of my dirty pleasures. I spend hours on there drooling over their rifles.
If I were to compete in LR BPCR I'd take:
http://www.shilohrifle.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=37
in 45-90 minimum with the longer heaviest barrels I could have and still be legal.
The 45-90 offers more umpf over the 45-70 and will reach the longer ranges better.
 
Hmm, photo better than words

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Although I have not shot the old guns farther than 600 yards, I feel qualified to discuss the matter. (Don't we all?)

I voted Highwall because the lock time is a theoretical advantage and the self cocking action is a real advantage when shooting under BPCR Metallic Silhouette time limits.

My main match rifle is now a Jap Browning "highwall" BPCR model with US Badger barrel. Caliber is .40-65 because that is all the recoil I can enjoy.
Note that the Miroku guns, now "Winchesters" are not faithful copies of the original. They look similar, are at least as strong, and shoot well, but are mechanically different. They lack set triggers or much adjustment of the single pull but can be tweaked to about a two pound pull which is fine for me. Stock attachment is by throughbolt instead of tang screws, a definite improvement. (Which is also available from Meacham on their BPCR models that are otherwise close copies of Winchester.)

My previous match rifle was a real Winchester Single Shot .38-55 which is a joy to shoot but did not always knock down the metallic silhouette rams (46 pounds, 500 metres.)

You can get highwalls from Winchester/Miroku, Meacham, Ballard, C. Sharps, Uberti, and Pedersoli. McGowen Barrels is still trying to bring their "American Gun" to market.

As rcmodel says, Sharps 1874 replicas lead the pack.
Good barrels and good quality general construction trump the theoretical disadvantages of the heavy side hammer and its slow lock time. A spare firing pin in the range box would be a good idea, though.
Shiloh turns out a great quality rifle with a lot of options. They have good "customer service", legions of loyal and vocal customers, and their own internet board. C. Sharps, which used to be part of the same company, produces another fine rifle right down the road from Shiloh.
Pedersoli sends in decent quality Italian reproductions.
There are other imports but they are seldom seen in matches. Quality is variable to put it kindly.
There are or have been a couple of other small US makers but their output is small and their rifles seldom seen.
There is a very expensive German made Sharps, of all things.

The 1874 is not the only Sharps.
C. Sharps makes repros of the rare 1875 Sharps. It lacks the movie credits of the 1874 but is a good solid rifle with the advantage of being the least expensive American made BPCR. Its Badger barrel will shoot with any.
Axtell builds (Built, maybe, the riflesmith.com site is down and there are rumors of Mrs Axtell offering the company for sale.) reproductions of the 1877 Sharps which can only be described as sensuously attractive. C. Sharps now lists the 1877 if you have a lot of money to throw around.


The Remington Rolling Block was the other main buffalo hunting and target rifle of the 19th century. It was made in tremendous variety but a lot of their production went into military rifles for foreign lands.
If you want a new one, I would give the Remington Custom Shop version a pass. The few I have seen were not of a build quality up to the high price.
If you want a nice Rolling Block, Dave Higginbotham's Lone Star Rifle Co. of Texas, America turns out a very good one, with a lot of options. He will even fix up your old real Remington to look and shoot good.
The Pedersoli Rolling Block is ok.


The Trapdoor Springfield, being a military rifle, can be a lot of fun but is not seen in serious competition except by a few rugged individualists who just want to prove It Can Be Done.


"Other" covers a lot of ground.
When I shot at Bon Aqua, Tennessee, I saw a lot of Ballards. This largely because the guy who owned the range had set up as a Ballard dealer and could offer good prices for good rifles. They are not otherwise real common but do have their points, like stock throughbolts, fast lock time, positive headspace control, and good triggers. It is not a real strong action but that matters only to the varmint hunter, not the BPCR shooter.

CPA turns out newly made Stevens 44 1/2 rifles. That is a good accurate gun, and probably the easiest to swap out barrels on; you can even get a .22 barrel and a rimfire breechblock. It was late in the single shot rifle era, used mostly for Scheutzen, and lacks the cachet of the old buffalo guns. Nothing wrong with it as an actual shooter, though.

BZ Arms makes a replica of the Remington (No 3) Hepburn side lever single shot. It is another good rifle even though not seen nearly as often as the Sharps or Rolling Block.

Then you get into the REALLY scarce stuff.
Steve Earle makes replicas of the Frank Wesson single shot actions. You have to get the rifle completed by an independent gunsmith but they sure come out nice. The Wesson No 1 is an almost line for line double of the Alex Henry sidehammer. The Wesson Midrange is kind of odd looking but I bet it will shoot.

There is a new outfit making Peabody rifles in continuation of the old Providence Tool Company. This is the original sidehammer Peabody design, usable in NRA Silhouette competition, not the hammerless Peabody Martini... which was adopted as the Martini Henry, using the names of the hammerless striker designer and the barrelmaker, completely losing sight of the origininator of the tipping breechblock action.

Phew.
There are probably some more that I do not know of or recall offhand.
Plus, there are gunsmiths who can make an old single shot look and shoot like new. I have seen original Hepburns, Rolling Blocks, and Winchesters in use.


Let's talk briefly about SHOOTING the darn things.
My interest is in BPCR, Black Powder Cartridge Rifles.
Cast bullets and real black powder will actually get the best target performance out of these old guns. Nitro will give higher velocity if you wish to hunt something bigger than buffalo, but black is better otherwise. Quality casting is necessary and match grade BP loading is demanding, but that is part of the fun of it.
You will find that a 405 grain .45 bullet is light for even 400 yards. The Army went to 500 in 1881; modern shooters are up in the 525-540 gr range for most such use.
 
This is a great post. I've been sweating a hi-wall for some time, but recently got to hold (not shoot) a rolling block and it felt great. I'd love to shoot that rifle. Maybe I just need both.
 
Never taken one out to 1k, but if I needed to i'd use this one:

RustysRags.jpg
(old photo, prior to installation of aperture rear sight, tunnel front, and Browning "barbed-wire" sling)

:)
 
The reason that I voted for the Sharps is that there are excelent set triggers for it. I think that a quality trigger offsets the longer lock time, giving the advantage to the Sharps.

My personal favorite is the Rem. Rolling Block. I love the design and the history. I just don't love it at 1000 yds.
 
I wish I could post pictures but can't. I have a Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express 34' heavy barrel in 45/70 fitted with an RHO telescopic sight. When I bring it to the range I get all kinds of "oohs" and "ahhs". Some ask to shoot it ,until they see what the round looks like. Those that have fired "Baby" were amazed at how easy it is to hit even small objects in particular golf balls at 100+ yards.
 
It is clear that some folks like the ye olde Sharps '74 and others the newfangled Winchester '85 (I like both!), but I can't help but notice that the falling block design is well in the lead. :D
 
Yup.
I once saw an old Winchester advertisement for the 1885 as having the strong Sharps breechblock with a modern center-hung hammer. They knew what they were starting from.
 
Jim, everything I have heard about strength seems to indicate that the 1885 is a fair amount stronger than the '74. I don't know why that would be, as the two are very similar in design, perhaps this is assuming that the 1885 has better quality steel (a Miroku copy)?

:)
 
I suspect that if you were determined to blow up a few guns, the 1885s would stand more than the 1874s of a given vintage.
However, Kirk Bryan of Shiloh says that his rifles will safely handle loads developed for Ruger No 1s, although he recommends you load below maximum and let the longer barrel typical of the Sharps make up any lack in velocity. That is ample for any use I have in mind.

Actually a lot more. My Browning BPCR has never been sullied by the first grain of smokeless powder and my real Winchester has not seen a speck of nitro for at least 15 years. If you shoot real black powder, theories of design and material become a lot less important. The Ballard is not a strong action by any current standard, but it will do anything required with black and its other design features mean it will do so with good accuracy.
 
Mr. Watson,

Here is the link to the Peabody @ Providence Tool Company LLC...very fine remake of the original in many ways:http://www.providencetoolcompanyllc.com/

By the way, your post was well written regarding the various options. As one that actually had the opportunity to utilize all of the rifles for 1000 yard silhouette and fixed target at 1500 yards, with both a combination of replicas and originals. The one that surprised me the most was an original '73 Trapdoor, made in 1877 (77 R rear sight), shooting a 20-1 500 grain (dropped at 510, w/SPG around 515) Hollow Base Postell in front of 65 grains of FFFg (I know, I know...pushing it, but it gives almost the same performance as 90 grains of Fg cartridge type Swiss) and using the information pertaining to trajectory from the Sandy Hooks trials. That old rifle was amazingly accurate.

That all being said, a custom High Wall with a Badger, Kreiger, North, Obermeyer, or Bartlein barrel would be my go to, even if placed on a replica action like this:

1885HighWall-1.jpg

I have also found through much experimentation that the .44-77 seems to be the go to round up to 600 yards...pushing it's luck though at 1000.
 
Based on research, experience of a personally-known, not just virtual friend, and emotion, of the poll choices, 1874 Sharps, as made by Shiloh. My actual experience has been limited to briefly owning a Browning 1885 in the 1990's. I only plinked with it a few times, before trading it toward a Ruger Number One.

More research might prompt me to go with a rolling block from Lone Star, if I ever become wealthy enough.

I may stay with my Rugers, unless I decide to compete in BPCR. The Ruger stock is perfect for my body's structure, and the Gibbs-Farquharson look suits my fancy. Frederick Selous favored a .451 Gibbs Farquharson during the blackpowder cartridge era, and he is one of the most truly interesting men of that time, IMHO, though of course he hunted mostly in Africa.

In any event, I won't voluntarily part with my Rugers, one of which is .45-70. I would like to have one re-barreled with a longer tube more suited to BPCR.

Notably, a very well-known BPCR match, the Quigley Shoot, accommodates Rugers. It is likely that other local matches do so, too.
 
I'd like to suggest that to start, you consider one of the Italian Sharps or Rolling Block repros, in particular a Pedersoli, as they have excellent bbls. Shoot it for several years before making up your mind to get a top-of-the-line American made one... Uberti's are also good, and I understand their bbls are made for them by Pedersoli... (I have the Long Range Target Rifle with a 34" bbl...would not go over 32" next time, but that's just my preference) Either one is WAY fun to shoot. But then I've hardly ever seen a gun that wasn't fun to shoot.
 
a very well-known BPCR match, the Quigley Shoot, accommodates Rugers. It is likely that other local matches do so, too.

No doubt. Not everybody is in cahoots with the NRA. Even NRA BPCR Long Range allows PERIOD hammerless rifles like the 1878 Sharps Borchardt that are not permitted for metallic silhouette. But it gets expensive setting up a gun for a particular outlaw match.

I have seen some wild debates about whether the Miller Model F is a close enough rendition of the Farrow to be allowed as a 19th century design, too. The only one I have ever seen being shot was by a kid maybe 14 years old. That is an indulgent Dad for sure.
 
Jim summed it up nicely. I own a Pedersoli Sharps in 45-70 and it's capable of shooting better than I am. It hangs right along with the Shilohs at our local BPCR match. Pedersoli makes excellent quality barrels. In the hands of a really good shooter the Shiloh is probably a little more accurate, but what you're really paying for with the Shiloh is superb craftsmanship. My Pedersoli is nice, but put a Shiloh next to it and there's no comparison.

I agree that the Sharps rifles do best with black powder and cast bullets. You do need to spend some time finding the right load. There are an awful lot of variables that go into BPCR load development. Finding the right bullet mould, the brand and granulation of powder, the amount of powder, amount of compression, alloy hardness, it can make your head spin. It's a ton of fun though, and nothing compares to hearing that big BOOM and seeing a perfect smoke circle drift downrange on a still morning. And then hearing the clang of lead on steel about 2 seconds later.

Then there's sights. You'll want to spend money on a decent tang sight. A quality sight with repeatable adjustments is essential to shooting these guns accurately.

Speaking of building a gun for an outlaw match, I found an old Martini-Henry action that I'm having a guy build into a custom .38-55 for me. It won't be legal for NRA silhouette, but with a fast lock time and an externally adjustable scope it ought to be killer for our local outlaw match :D

If any of you guys are ever in Lincoln, NE the first Sunday of the month give me a shout and come shoot in our match. It's a lot of fun, no prizes except for bragging rights, and trying to avoid the teasing you get when you come in last. We allow any single shot .38 caliber or larger, smokeless or black powder, plain base cast bullets only.

mot2.gif
 
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I have been looking at getting a 45-70 for a while. I was hoping to get input about whether an H & R Buffalo Classic or Ruger No. 1 would be a better gun in terms of accuracy and being able to heat up rounds. Thanks for the help.
 
The Ruger will handle much hotter loads than the H&R, and will most likely be more accurate. Not to mention I think the No. 1 is one of the most beautiful rifles ever made, second only to the 1874 Sharps :D. You'll pay a lot more for it, though.
 
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