Looking at getting a winchester m70 Super Grade. Need some caliber advice

[King Cobb]

I have decided to upgrade my deer rifle. I hunt white tail in central Texas and the Hill Country. Pretty much just from a stand or a blind. Other then that I will take it to the range or maybe go hog hunting when they start tearing up the ranch.

My past guns have been a 60s Era beat Rem 700 in 30-06 and my father's custom sorter built on a Swedish mauser action in 25-06. Both had scopes on them that are a good 30 years old at least. Also hunted a bit with a BLR .270.

Caliber wise I am looking at 25-06, .308, 30-06, or while I have no experience with it, I have read some really good things on the .264 winchester magnum. Consider 7mm and 300 more bullet then I need.

I don't shoot long range on game, out past 250 yards or so I wait for it to come closer, plus with the trees and hills, their aren't a lot of places I can see that far anyway.

Any advice on caliber among those would be appreciated. Also any suggestions on a good scope would be nice, all my guns have had older scopes already on them.

 

[Art Eatman]

My two hunting-in-Texas pet rifles have been a .243 carbine and a long-barrel .30-'06. My legs got old and tired and I moved to a 700Ti in 7mm08.

I played around with a .264 for a while, but it was somehow not the deal for the way I hunted. Good ballistics, but way more than necessary.

With hogs on the menu, I'd go with the '06. Particularly if you handload.

I'm still using Leupold Vari-X II scopes from the old days. They work as well now as they ever have. I see no point in "upgrade".

 

[Corn-Picker]

I always recommend 308; practice ammo as low as $0.50/round, more loadings than any other medium game caliber, and more than enough for anything in Texas unless you encounter an angry bull that's strayed from some farmer's field.

 

[natman]

I have decided to upgrade my deer rifle. I hunt white tail in central Texas and the Hill Country. Pretty much just from a stand or a blind. Other then that I will take it to the range or maybe go hog hunting when they start tearing up the ranch.
...
Caliber wise I am looking at 25-06, .308, 30-06, or while I have no experience with it, I have read some really good things on the .264 winchester magnum. Consider 7mm and 300 more bullet then I need.

I don't shoot long range on game, out past 250 yards or so I wait for it to come closer, plus with the trees and hills, their aren't a lot of places I can see that far anyway.

Any advice on caliber among those would be appreciated. Also any suggestions on a good scope would be nice, all my guns have had older scopes already on them.

I don't shoot long range on game, out past 250 yards or so I wait for it to come closer

Good for you. You have no need whatsoever for the 264 WM. Any advantage it would have over a 270 would only be apparent well past 250 yards. Since you hunt mostly from a blind or stand, there's no need for a super light rifle, so you might as well get a long action.

I'd recommend that you get your Winchester 70 in 25-06, 270 or 30-06. Get a Leupold 2x-7 or 3x-9.

 

[jmr40]

The Super Grade comes with a longer somewhat heavier barrel along with a beefier stock. It is a big, heavy gun. Well over 8 lbs in 270 or 30-06, closer to 10 lbs after scope and mounts. With that in mind I'd not like one in anything smaller than 30-06 and I feel the Super Grade is just better suited for the magnum calibers.

While I prefer to use something 30-06 and smaller for a general purpose rifle, I just feel the smaller calibers are better suited in the more compact versions of the model 70.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

I've got three M70s...two EWs in .30-06 and 7mm RM and a high grade with grade III wood in 7x57. All three are wonderful rifles.

Were I primarily a deer hunter, particularly in TX where white tail run a little small, I would opt for a .270 Win. It's all the cartridge/bullet you need and the 130 gr has wonderful ballistics out to 300+ yards. I have a .270 Win in a Ruger 77RSI and it's a wonderful lightweight rifle using a wonderful reloader's cartridge.

FH

 

[HOOfan_1]

For the range you plan to hunt, I would probably get a 7mm-08...with .270 as a secondary option

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

I hunt same part of Texas with lots of hogs, gonna treat myself to another hunting rifle for retirement. I have a 7mm-08 I really like and might get another, I believe you can get this rifle in .257 Roberts, one caliber I don't own a rifle in.

 

[Laphroaig]

When I think Model 70 and deer hunting, I think .270. Of course, I was brainwashed by Jack O'Connor as a kid.

So I'd say .270. 270 WSM would be my second choice.

Laphroaig

 

[King Cobb]

Found a place here in Houston with a .308 and 7mm. Seeing if they can get me a 25-06.

Any suggestions on scopes? I have literally never bought a scope, always used the old ones that were already mounted.

 

[Slamfire]

Caliber wise I am looking at 25-06, .308, 30-06, or while I have no experience with it, I have read some really good things on the .264 winchester magnum

.

The 264 Winchester is a barrel burner. I just looked at the current calibers Super Grades come in, http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?mid=535203&family=001C, too bad the 6.5 X 55 Swede is not there, that is an outstanding round.

You really cannot go wrong with a 270 Win or a 30-06 for the animals and distances you specify. The 270 Win and a M70 is a classic combination. The 7mm 08 is an excellent cartridge, it is a little different than the norm. The 7mm 08 duplicates the velocities of the 7 X 57 Mauser but in a 308 Win length case. For a hunting rifle, the 30-06 does everything the 308 Win will do, and a bit more, so I would chose the 30-06 over the 308 unless you have to have something different.

I have had excellent experiences with Leupold scopes. Optics today are so much better than they were 20 years ago. It is hard to give advice on scope power, it is a choice of how much metal and glass you want to carry around and how much magnification.

 

[redneck2]

I don't know that there's a right or wrong as far as caliber. I'd maybe go for a 7-08 if that's an option, but I don't think the critter you whack really cares all that much about caliber. A 130 launched at 2,800 fps is gonna be the same no matter what the case looks like.

As for scopes, go over to the scopes and sights forum. Lotsa opinions there. Me, I'd get a Leupold VX-3 in probably 3-9 x 40 but that's just me.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

For a Win 70 SuperGrade the .270 Win covers all you want. If you were wanting a light weight compact version of the Win Model 70 I'd choose 7mm-08

 

[Frostbite]

You have great taste. I agree with the .270 Winchester suggestion. Great caliber.

 

[OldBrownDog]

I'll vote .270 or 7mm-08 as well. For a scope, take a look at Leupold's VX-3 3.5-10x40 for the .270 and the VX-3 2.5-8x36 for a 7mm-08. The 2.5-8 is a little short for a long action, but it's perfect for getting good eye relief on a short action. The 3.5-10 is excellent on a long action.

 

[Toklat3]

Mod 70 Super Grade

I have one in 300 win mag but live in Alaska I think 270 would do nicely in Texas

 

[Toklat3]

One more

Leupold VX 3 3.5 x 10 Just need to load some ammo!

 

[King Cobb]

Well ended up having to order a .270 since that is what I settled on. Will be here next week.

Still deciding between a vx-1 or a vx-2.

 

[Gordon]

VX2 is a good scope, 3-9 run very reasonable.The VX1 would cheapen up your package IMHO and you would be buying better soon. My advice is to steer clear of the Redfield style mounts and rings. Warne are good and cheap, Talley mounts and rings would be fitting on a Super Grade.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold-vari-x-ii-3-9x40mm-rifle-scope.html

http://www.opticsplanet.com/talley-...-winchester-70-1-quot-style-black-finish.html

 

[jmr40]

The VX-2 is all the scope you'll ever really need. It is worth the extra money to buy one with long range dots to me. The VX-1 is a very serviceable scope. About 3-4 years ago Leupold upgraded the entire VX line of scopes. A current VX-1 is essentially an older VX-2 and the current VX-2's are using the same lense coatings and technology as 3-4 year old VX-3. In fact the VX-2's I own are a much better scope than some 5-7 year old VX-3's I own.

If I were spending the money for a Supergrade I'd not go cheap on the scope. VX-2 would be the minimum on this rifle and I'd look at VX-3 which is even better too.

This is something else I'd consider. Zeiss dropped their very popular and excellent 3-9X40 Conquest several years ago. This is supposed to be the exact same scope resurrected and branded as a Cabelas brand. (according to a recent Outdoor Life article). I've looked through one in Cabelas and feel it is the same scope with different badges. The specs are exactly the same as the one I own. If this is the same scope, I'd highly recommend it.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Shoo...escopes/_/N-1100246/Ns-CATEGORY_SEQ_104535180

 

[King Cobb]

It won't be in until next week. I plan on doing a lot of research into the Vx-1 vs. 2 debate between now and then.

From what I have read on Leupolds website, I just don't get that big of a difference for me. Nitrogen vs. Argon mix doesn't seem a big concern to me. All I have ever had are friction nobs and I can't remember ever spending much time adjusting after sighting in. I get the VX-2 has better glass, but that doesn't mean the VX-1 is garbage. It will still be better glass then the 30+ year old scopes I have used.

I am certain the coatings do make a difference, but with everything I have read, the human eye can only detect so much light anyway, so I imagine there is a law of diminishing returns coming in here on the difference between 92% light and 95%?

Like I said I have about a week to decide so I am gonna keep researching and studying the info at hand, but so far the arguments I have gotten for the VX-2 over the VX-1 are largely: It will look cooler on your rifle(not sure how, looking at them in the store they didn't look that different), click adjustments(again, for me I don't think they are necessary), and the inestimable better glass argument, which again I don't know that they are that different.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I don't appreciate the assistance, I just have always been about the value I get for the money I spend (I know, for a 35 year old guy, I sound a lot like an 80 year old).

Any more advice or assistance is greatly appreciated.

 

[Offfhand]

Quoted from post above:

"The 264 Winchester is a barrel burner."

This is an interesting comment, I've heard, and read, this said before about various calibers and I suppose it means the barrel wears out and loses accuracy but I've never seen it clearly defined.
It would certainly be less confused if someone supplied comparative numbers. For example, after how many shots would a .264 barrel be "burned" out? 100, 200, 500, 1000, or more??
Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[King Cobb]

No actual experience, but from researching it on here and over at chuckhawks, the typical number seems to be somewhere between 900 and 1000 rounds.

 

[Slamfire]

Since you purchased a 270 Win, let me share my experience with load testing in the 270 Win as it might save you some time and frustration.

I ran a series of ammunition tests in my FN Deluxe in 270 Win. I tried a bunch of powders that were in the closet. Some of them were old staples: IMR 4350 and H4350. I wanted to get a good decent accuracy load with 130’s as I believe the 130 grain bullet is the best overall combination of weight and velocity for this cartridge. It turns out my rifle does not care for 130 grain bullets, it shoots best with 150’s. Bummer.

I was disappointed with the velocities I got with my 130 Noslers’ and 55.0 grs H4350. I wanted 3000 fps and I did not get it. The only ammunition I got 3000 fps was Federal factory. My rifle shot best with the 150’s, and that velocity is disappointing. I get better velocities with 150’s in a 308 Win.

I finally bought IMR 4831 and tested that in my 270 Win. This is a very popular powder in this caliber. It turns out to be the velocity champ in this rifle. As usual, I lubricated my cases prior to shooting. This breaks the friction between chamber and bolt and applies the full thrust of the case to the bolt. Normally I detect maximum loads by having either a stiff bolt lift, blown or leaking primers. Lubing the cases removes parasitic friction between case and chamber, forcing the system to fully load the bolt. This removes false indications of low pressure, which would be an easy bolt lift, which will happen when the case carries some of the load. Well, that is what normally happens. Here, I did not feel a stiff bolt lift even though I pushed 130 grain bullets to 3200 fps. Maybe the heavy mainspring hid some pressure indications. I also did not experience any blown primers or leaking primers. However, on reloading these cases, I found a few with loose pockets, which is a positive indication of too much pressure, and so, in the future, I am going to keep any IMR 4831 velocities to 3000 fps or less.

My lot of WC852 is an odd ball lower burn rate lot. Accurate Arms sells this powder as AA2700 and their powder is a bit faster burning. I think it has potential as I received a good 150 grain group with the stuff.

I think the only useful advice I can give in this post is to skip testing any other powders but IMR 4831 or H 4831.

[SIZE="3"]FN Deluxe 24" Barrel new Wolff 22 pound mainspring
		
							
100 gr PSP Remington Factory					
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	3024			 			
Std Dev =	11			 			
ES =	27			 			
High =	3035			 			
Low =	3008			 			
N =	5						

130 gr Winchester Power Point SP Factory 				
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	2789			 			
Std Dev =	17			 			
ES =	42			 			
High =	2809			 			
Low =	2767			 			
N =	5						
							
							
130 gr Federal Hi Shok Factory					
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
							
Ave Vel =	3028			 			
Std Dev =	38			 			
ES =	103			 			
High =	3088			 			
Low =	2985			 			
N =	5
							
							
130 gr R-P Bronze Point 55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2732						
Std Dev =	36						
ES =	102						
High =	2790			 			
Low =	2688			 			
N =	6						
							
							
130 gr Nosler BT  55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.3"	
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2833		                                                    	 			
Std Dev =	15			 			
ES =	39			 			
High =	2848			 			
Low =	2809			 			
N =	5						

130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
					 	 		
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	2942			 				
Std Dev =	5			 				
ES =	10			 				
High =	2948			 				
Low =	2938			 				
N =	5							
								
								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
					 	 		
14 Mar 2012 T =  80 °F 						
								
Ave Vel =	2952							
Std Dev =	53							
ES =	119							
High =	2999							
Low =	2880							
N =	6							
								
								
130 gr Nosler  55.0 grs AA 4350 wtd lot 9-95 Rem cases WLR OAL 3.250"		
								
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	2961			 				
Std Dev =	6			 				
ES =	16			 				
High =	2967			 				
Low =	2951			 				
N =	5							
	

						
							
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
					 	 		
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	2942			 				
Std Dev =	5			 				
ES =	10			 				
High =	2948			 				
Low =	2938			 				
N =	5							
								
								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
					 	 		
14 Mar 2012 T =  80 °F 						
								
Ave Vel =	2952							
Std Dev =	53							
ES =	119							
High =	2999							
Low =	2880							
N =	6							
								
								
130 gr Nosler  55.0 grs AA 4350 wtd lot 9-95 Rem cases WLR OAL 3.250"		
								
8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	2961			 				
Std Dev =	6			 				
ES =	16			 				
High =	2967			 				
Low =	2951			 				
N =	5							


150 gr Speer Flat Base  53.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
							
29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F 					
							
Ave Vel =	2704		                                                       	 			
Std Dev =	18			 			
ES =	49			 			
High =	2727			 			
Low =	2678		         	 			
N = 5


								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  57.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	2959			 				
Std Dev =	26			 				
ES =	65			 				
High =	3005			 				
Low =	2940			 				
N =	5							
								
								
 					
					
								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  58.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	3041			 				
Std Dev =	23			 				
ES =	63			 				
High =	3067			 				
Low =	3004			 				
N =	5							
								
								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  59.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	3126							
Std Dev =	16							
ES =	43							
High =	3149							
Low =	3106							
N =	5		 					
								
slight primer cupping around firing pin, probable primer pocket expansion, over max load	
								
130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  60.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
2 Sep 2014 T =  93 °F 							
								
Ave Vel =	3215			 				
Std Dev =	18			 				
ES =	48			 				
High =	3240			 				
Low =	3192			 				
N =	5		 					
								
slight primer cupping around firing pin, probable primer pocket expansion, over max load	
[/SIZE]

 

[Slamfire]

For example, after how many shots would a .264 barrel be "burned" out? 100, 200, 500, 1000, or more??
Thanks for clearing this up.

I met a guy whose 264 Win mag key holed around 700 rounds.