M4/m16
- Thread starter 1911crazy
- Start date
- Status
docnyt
Member
What would you like to know that's not on Google or the search function?
acmax95
Member
I have a DPMS Oracle which is probably the cheapest AR you can buy already built. I have had mine for a few months and had no issues. I have fired Federal brass cased as well as Wolf/Tula steel cased ammo and had no issues at all.
I have no issues recommending the DPMS based on my limited personal experience.
I have no issues recommending the DPMS based on my limited personal experience.
A far better brand (not saying all DPMS guns are bad, just that my experience was that they were a crapshoot) is the Palmetto State Armory rifle selection. Look at their mid-length guns, or their patrol carbine ($1000 rifle that ships with 1 magazine and an Aimpoint? Talk about an amazing deal, one of the best optics out there and a mil-spec rifle to go with it!).
docnyt
Member
I can't speak for the DPMS since I've never had one. I do have a Bushmaster XM15E2S I bought used as my first AR. It's been pretty solid, has eaten all commercially available 5.56 and .223 ammo I've fed it. It likes to be run "wet" as a lot of ARs do. Also have a .22 upper for it that runs great. You'll probably find in your search that Bushmaster is not exactly the top of the line when it comes to M4s (take LWRC for example) but mine has treated me well.
I like Bushmaster barrels better than DPMS barrels
Not impressed with the bolt/carrier assemblies from either
The upper and lower receivers are comparable to any top grade stuff out there
The lower parts in either are servicable if not spectacular
Both use commercial diameter tubes on slider stock assemblies
DPMS A2 fixed stock assemblies are better than the Bushmasters(easier to open trapdoor)
If I was choosing an assembled ready to shoot rifle, I would choose the Bushmaster.HTH
Not impressed with the bolt/carrier assemblies from either
The upper and lower receivers are comparable to any top grade stuff out there
The lower parts in either are servicable if not spectacular
Both use commercial diameter tubes on slider stock assemblies
DPMS A2 fixed stock assemblies are better than the Bushmasters(easier to open trapdoor)
If I was choosing an assembled ready to shoot rifle, I would choose the Bushmaster.HTH
VeryOldDog
Member
I have a DPMS Panther™ Lo-Pro Classic with an Aimpoint red dot mounted. It was purchased in 2007 and is one of the most accurate firearms in my safe. My wife usually shoots with it at the range and uses it for hunting. At fifty yards the groups are within one inch. At 100 yards, she can tear the center out of a two inch target. I must admit that this was purchased before the acquisition of DPMS by the company that snapped up Remington and Marlin. Here is a link to the rifle:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/image.aspx?id=51&type=large
She never misses when taking coyotes or prairie dogs.
I have been using the Rock River Arms LAR Entry Operator 2. It is also a very fine rifle but in my opinion not as precisely accurate as the DPMS. If I had to do it again, I would have purchased a longer barrel on the Rock River or gone back to acquire another DPMS. The shooter is probably at fault rather than the rifle, although I do get better results with the DPMS. I have a Burris red dot mounted on this as well. This is the Rock River:
[/IMG]
There is an irony here. When I served in Viet Nam, I hated the rifle because it would jam and have to be constantly attended to. Because I was in a very special recon unit that would go to areas outside of South Viet Nam, I turned the rifle in and used a World War II Thompson sub machine gun with 45 ACP to match my pistol. Now, these AR's are so reliable and dependable and completely more accurate. If we had the quality of the Rock River for example, every GI would have been better off.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/image.aspx?id=51&type=large
She never misses when taking coyotes or prairie dogs.
I have been using the Rock River Arms LAR Entry Operator 2. It is also a very fine rifle but in my opinion not as precisely accurate as the DPMS. If I had to do it again, I would have purchased a longer barrel on the Rock River or gone back to acquire another DPMS. The shooter is probably at fault rather than the rifle, although I do get better results with the DPMS. I have a Burris red dot mounted on this as well. This is the Rock River:
There is an irony here. When I served in Viet Nam, I hated the rifle because it would jam and have to be constantly attended to. Because I was in a very special recon unit that would go to areas outside of South Viet Nam, I turned the rifle in and used a World War II Thompson sub machine gun with 45 ACP to match my pistol. Now, these AR's are so reliable and dependable and completely more accurate. If we had the quality of the Rock River for example, every GI would have been better off.
Last edited:
ok any suggestions for an ar thats with extremely good value to price ratio eight or nine hundred dollars to be exact.and some other good names in the ar business all though i abscess about guns i know less than i would like about the M4/M16 platform
kwelz
Member
there is great irony here. RRA is not something I would ever wish to inflict upon our fighting men.
VeryOldDog
Member
Kwelz:
I do not want to get into a pissing contest with you but the Rock River Rifle is far better than the issued AR in Viet Nam. At least I can go to a range and fire 10 magazines of 30 rounds each and not have a stoppage where the Viet Nam issued AR rifle you could not fire 11 rounds out of 20 round magazine loaded with 19 rounds. There were a lot of dead Marines because of that. Numerous problems with the bolt, barrels, springs, magazines, etc., etc. Viet Nam became a proving ground for the evolution of the AR technology and delivery platform. The new Colt AR is night and day better than the one they issued in 1967.
When I retired from the Marines in December of 1990, the AR had become a fairly reliable tool. Even so, I never used one again until I purchased the DPMS. I always chose something else from the armory like an H&K product. I also never gave up my 45ACP for the Berretta.
With kind regards,
Ed
I do not want to get into a pissing contest with you but the Rock River Rifle is far better than the issued AR in Viet Nam. At least I can go to a range and fire 10 magazines of 30 rounds each and not have a stoppage where the Viet Nam issued AR rifle you could not fire 11 rounds out of 20 round magazine loaded with 19 rounds. There were a lot of dead Marines because of that. Numerous problems with the bolt, barrels, springs, magazines, etc., etc. Viet Nam became a proving ground for the evolution of the AR technology and delivery platform. The new Colt AR is night and day better than the one they issued in 1967.
When I retired from the Marines in December of 1990, the AR had become a fairly reliable tool. Even so, I never used one again until I purchased the DPMS. I always chose something else from the armory like an H&K product. I also never gave up my 45ACP for the Berretta.
With kind regards,
Ed
kwelz
Member
No doubt that the early M16s were bad. There were a number of contributing factors from ammo, to lack of maintenance to design shortcuts. Most all of them were caused by the same source. Cost cutting by people who had never spent a single day in uniform.
This is why the TDP is so important today for the M4. It sets forth the minimum guidelines for a reliable weapon. You can surpass those requirements but you can't fall short. The reason I take issue with companies like RRA that you mentioned is that they dont' bother to follow these requirements. In many ways they have more in common with those early M16s than they do with today's reliable M4s.
This is why the TDP is so important today for the M4. It sets forth the minimum guidelines for a reliable weapon. You can surpass those requirements but you can't fall short. The reason I take issue with companies like RRA that you mentioned is that they dont' bother to follow these requirements. In many ways they have more in common with those early M16s than they do with today's reliable M4s.
Zerodefect
member
Whoever was in charge of procuring the first batch of M16's was an idiot. Who cares what happened in Vietnam, apparently we were stupider then.
Today we know what works and what deosn't. Yes, the RRA's are better than the OG m16's, but that deosn't mean that there aren't way better rifles for the same cash expense in todays market. For those that like Shrubby, Cerberus, Del-ton, hey more power to ya', but when someone asks for a recommendation, I'm going to bash those every time.
1911crazy, you wanted advice, I say skip both. Look towards Colt, BCM, LMT, DD.
Similar cost, better stuff.
Look at BCM's epic list of upper recievers. Let us know what types of uppers may work for you. BCM has an example of just about every type of upper you could want. It'll help you get an idea of what type of carbine setups are available. Also look at one of Ar15.coms pic threads. Let us know what type of style you like and we can figure out the best matching deal.
Epic Ar pic thread to give you some ideas:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/510264_Official_AR15_com_Picture_Thread_part_22.html
BCM's list of majik uppers:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm
As you can see there are a great many types of Ar styles out there. Short range carbines, to longer range SPR's, and everything in between.
Today we know what works and what deosn't. Yes, the RRA's are better than the OG m16's, but that deosn't mean that there aren't way better rifles for the same cash expense in todays market. For those that like Shrubby, Cerberus, Del-ton, hey more power to ya', but when someone asks for a recommendation, I'm going to bash those every time.
1911crazy, you wanted advice, I say skip both. Look towards Colt, BCM, LMT, DD.
Similar cost, better stuff.
Look at BCM's epic list of upper recievers. Let us know what types of uppers may work for you. BCM has an example of just about every type of upper you could want. It'll help you get an idea of what type of carbine setups are available. Also look at one of Ar15.coms pic threads. Let us know what type of style you like and we can figure out the best matching deal.
Epic Ar pic thread to give you some ideas:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/510264_Official_AR15_com_Picture_Thread_part_22.html
BCM's list of majik uppers:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Upper-Receiver-Groups-s/1.htm
As you can see there are a great many types of Ar styles out there. Short range carbines, to longer range SPR's, and everything in between.
Last edited:
thanks for the links.anyway the kind of AR i would like should be tough use mil-spec parts if possible be accurate and reliable. as to the looks it's supposed to be the barbie for men right so i can probably play around with it
. to be honest i don't understand what you mean about the upper receiver
. to be honest i don't understand what you mean about the upper receiverkwelz
Member
WW is pretty much identical to the bushmasters that were made in that plant before. In other words you can do better for the money.
Also I prefer this Picture thread.
I find it very interesting to see the progression of professional shooters gear over the past 5 and a half years.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=642
Also I prefer this Picture thread.
I find it very interesting to see the progression of professional shooters gear over the past 5 and a half years.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=642
Bobson
Member
Windham Weaponry employs ex-Bushmaster employees almost exclusively, and was started by a large group of the people who were laid off from Bushmaster when it was bought out by The Freedom Group (Cerberus Capital) in 2006.
From what I understand, Windham Weaponry rifles are higher quality than current-production Bushmaster rifles, but that's to be expected, if you're familiar with the several other firearm manufacturers The Freedom Group bought out, and their many quality-control issues as of late. They include Marlin, Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, and H&R.
From what I understand, Windham Weaponry rifles are higher quality than current-production Bushmaster rifles, but that's to be expected, if you're familiar with the several other firearm manufacturers The Freedom Group bought out, and their many quality-control issues as of late. They include Marlin, Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, and H&R.
triggerhappy101
Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2011
- Messages
- 16
i have a question about the quality control of DPMS is it consistent or sporadic and are they good guns for the price or are there other company's with better guns for the same price
Last edited:
JustinJ
Member
For the money Colt is the best buy, IMO. That being said, a cheaper AR maybe fully suitable to your needs.
triggerhappy101
Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2011
- Messages
- 16
thanks for that JustinJ
C-grunt
Member
My duty gun is a Bushmaster. They are not made for high volumes of fire. Mine has broken 4 times. Every Bushmaster my dept bought has had some sort of problem. It is accurate and feeds/fires reliably.
Bushy/DPMS/RRA...etc. all cut corners. If you want a rifle for self defense get one from a company that doesnt cut corners and use the cheapest parts. Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, KAC and BCM. These rifles are built right.
Bushy/DPMS/RRA...etc. all cut corners. If you want a rifle for self defense get one from a company that doesnt cut corners and use the cheapest parts. Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, KAC and BCM. These rifles are built right.
would someone please tell me about the core 15 M4:banghead:
Stricky
Member
Here is a recent review of a core 15: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/552177_core_15_NiB_BCG_review.html
"For $1000 the Palmetto State Armory Optics Carbine is the best buy. You get an M4 with an Aimpoint Pro optic included for $999. Nobody can touch that deal." (quote from another AR thread)
"For $1000 the Palmetto State Armory Optics Carbine is the best buy. You get an M4 with an Aimpoint Pro optic included for $999. Nobody can touch that deal." (quote from another AR thread)
- Status