Intune
Member
Oh, was this not a complete thought? Well then that would make
a... Naw, not gonna go there...
Have a grand week folks.
Man pulls CCW to stop a fight
- Thread starter Froggy
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Have a grand week folks.Jeff - I, too, have spent the majority of my adult life in the USMC and LE and Training.
You and I agree on most things covered. However - the reason I support training as a part of the licensing process is to PREVENT Civilians for making that fatal mistake in a heated moment of a stressful encounter.
I prefer the training to AVOID the potential for the time when
I would prefer to help folks AVOID the use of force all together if possible.
I would prefer to help folks KNOW what they are in for should they be forced to use Lethal Force.
I would prefer to help folks become EFFECTIVE should the need to use Lethal Force to protect themselves or their loved ones.
And - AS I HAVE STATED REPEATEDLY - Training is NOT the issue - Demonstrated Capacity is sufficient in my book... However you get there.
YMMV...
You and I agree on most things covered. However - the reason I support training as a part of the licensing process is to PREVENT Civilians for making that fatal mistake in a heated moment of a stressful encounter.
I prefer the training to AVOID the potential for the time when
and to avoid the inevitable when
I believe most folks - when forced to engage in such an encounter - will fall back to the most basic level of training in their personal experience history.
I would prefer to help folks AVOID the use of force all together if possible.
I would prefer to help folks KNOW what they are in for should they be forced to use Lethal Force.
I would prefer to help folks become EFFECTIVE should the need to use Lethal Force to protect themselves or their loved ones.
And - AS I HAVE STATED REPEATEDLY - Training is NOT the issue - Demonstrated Capacity is sufficient in my book... However you get there.
YMMV...
White Horseradish
Member
TC-TX, it has been shown here twice now that this man had his training. Post #58 and post #83 of this thread.
So, how exactly did it help in this instance?
So, how exactly did it help in this instance?
cassandrasdaddy
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i missed where
it showed anything more than he had a permit? did someone show that it required trainning ?
i generally like darwin except in cases like this where if he fubars its likely to be someone else that goes extinct. i've seen folks without a clue own guns and get in trouble its only magnified when they carry in public
it showed anything more than he had a permit? did someone show that it required trainning ?
i generally like darwin except in cases like this where if he fubars its likely to be someone else that goes extinct. i've seen folks without a clue own guns and get in trouble its only magnified when they carry in public
grimjaw - No offense, but I NEVER said that I thought training should be MANDATORY... Please Re-read the thread...grimjaw said:
I stated that I support a Demonstrated Level of Competence and - in lieu of that - IN MY OPINION - I think that the training requirement is a good thing to have in the licensing process.
Old Dog
Member
Coming quite late to this thread. I used to think like TC-TX, but my last 13 years living in the great state of Washington -- NO training requirement for CPLs -- has totally changed my mind.
As Pax, and others, have noted, there appears to be no statistical validation that CHL/CCW/CPL holders in states without training requirements engage in more bonehead activities or violate more laws, than those licensees in states that have training requirements.
TC-TX believes that a "Demonstrated Level of Competence" should be required in order for every citizen to exercise a right that's existed long before anyone passed laws for "training requirements" to carry firearms for the defense of their lives and the lives of their loved ones. I can't seem to recall any society in the past few thousand years (other than some of our states subsequent to the passing of firearms laws in the 20th Century) that required its citizens to "demonstrate competence" with their chosen defensive weapons in order for them to be allowed to carry their weapons ...
I'm wondering how one reconciles a belief such as this with a true belief in the 2nd Amendment.
evan price
Member
I personally know of people who have carried for years with no CFL, no training, and they have probably shot all of 30 rounds through their gun in their life. Is that good?
By the same token I don't feel we should have a comprehensive firearms training course akin to the drivers' ed type classes most states mandate.
However, I think if you are going to carry a pistol, the purpose of which is to preserve your life in a close surroundings in which other noninvolved targets may be destroyed, hurt or killed, you should put up with a LITTLE insurance that you know what the **** you are doing. What's wrong with proving your competence? Maybe a multi staged permit...?
The whole problem most anti CCW people see is that fear that the wild west syndrome will take over. They see CCW as this evil geniie that will make us all turn into roving bands of murderers. And popular media has done more to reinforce the negative stereotype than nearly anything else.
By the same token I don't feel we should have a comprehensive firearms training course akin to the drivers' ed type classes most states mandate.
However, I think if you are going to carry a pistol, the purpose of which is to preserve your life in a close surroundings in which other noninvolved targets may be destroyed, hurt or killed, you should put up with a LITTLE insurance that you know what the **** you are doing. What's wrong with proving your competence? Maybe a multi staged permit...?
The whole problem most anti CCW people see is that fear that the wild west syndrome will take over. They see CCW as this evil geniie that will make us all turn into roving bands of murderers. And popular media has done more to reinforce the negative stereotype than nearly anything else.
The guy who pulled the gun is an idiot! Like it was said before, check your attitude at the door. Sounds like to me he has his head up his arse!
The air he breathed is horrible. Some people don't understand what is entailed in having a CCW. Just my 2 cents!
tommy
The air he breathed is horrible. Some people don't understand what is entailed in having a CCW. Just my 2 cents! tommy
arthurcw
Member
TC-TX wrote:
Please re-read post #58. It's a bit more than an assumption. He was not hauled away for "carrying an illegal weapon" and was said to have had a permit, so it's really just logic, not an assumption.
Yes, I would have taken a class anyway.
Yes, I am VERY upset I was forced to in TX.
No, no amount of firearms training would have helped this bozo. Maybe some therapy sessions.
Please re-read post #58. It's a bit more than an assumption. He was not hauled away for "carrying an illegal weapon" and was said to have had a permit, so it's really just logic, not an assumption.
Yes, I would have taken a class anyway.
Yes, I am VERY upset I was forced to in TX.
No, no amount of firearms training would have helped this bozo. Maybe some therapy sessions.
Jamie C.
Member
When are people going to learn that you can not legislate good sense? ( I'd have said "common sense", except the whole problem is it seems to be the most uncommon thing in the world. )
Also, I'm still trying to get my mind around this whole concept of licensing a RIGHT...
Anyway, I'll reserve judgment on the fellow in the article... Who knows, maybe the other fellow really did throw the first punch, and the guy drew his gun only after he figured out that was the only way to de-escalate the situation? Without having actually been there, there's no way to say for sure. And apparently the police agree.
By the way... is AZ one of those states where you're obligated to try to retreat or escape if you're attacked?
J.C.
Also, I'm still trying to get my mind around this whole concept of licensing a RIGHT...
Anyway, I'll reserve judgment on the fellow in the article... Who knows, maybe the other fellow really did throw the first punch, and the guy drew his gun only after he figured out that was the only way to de-escalate the situation? Without having actually been there, there's no way to say for sure. And apparently the police agree.
By the way... is AZ one of those states where you're obligated to try to retreat or escape if you're attacked?
J.C.
Eyewitnesses
Eyewitnesses do not always "see" what they think they "see". In the excitement of the moment, many people's minds fill-in-the-blanks for missing "data". The video, if a constant recording device, should tell the story. Hopefully is isn't one of those nanny-cams that snap a pic every 5 seconds.
I will do the prudent thing and wait for a video.
Doc2005
Eyewitnesses do not always "see" what they think they "see". In the excitement of the moment, many people's minds fill-in-the-blanks for missing "data". The video, if a constant recording device, should tell the story. Hopefully is isn't one of those nanny-cams that snap a pic every 5 seconds.
I will do the prudent thing and wait for a video.
Doc2005
Intune
Member
Oh, you're for TESTING. Well, shucks pardner, why not just share the parameters of your "book" with us? Long test? We have plenty of laws to pull from. Hard test? We don't want just anybody running around waving guns, now do we? Expensive test? Price-point will go a long way towards filtering "undesirables". Now the govt is going to want us to provide some type of assistance for these low-income citizens but we can put them through bureaucratic hell and most will be dissuaded.
Training? NOT the issue. We need teachers! Well-paid teachers! Heck, I agree with you, this is important. Life & death. This makes grade school, high school & college look like childsplay. We need the best of the best for this program! I'm thinking minimum 75k yr. What does your book say? 
Green Lantern
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First of all...IF a guy walks up to me and punches me, then I punch back, then he pulls a gun on me? As long as he winds up subdued and no longer a danger to me, you're darn skippy I'd stick around to press charges!
UNLESS of course, I had done something like make a rude comment about his mother just before punches were exchanged...
Just thinking that it sounds fishy that the "victim" did not stick around to talk to police.
Still, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is worth getting into a fight in a Wal-Mart about? Did one of them get the last of a "blue-light special" item or something?
Thank God for my 4 years in high school. I realize now that being a "p****" then by talking, walking, or wussing my way out of EVERY SINGLE confrontation/fight some meathead tried to start with me...
...was really just GOOD PRACTICE for my life as a CCW holder!
UNLESS of course, I had done something like make a rude comment about his mother just before punches were exchanged...
Just thinking that it sounds fishy that the "victim" did not stick around to talk to police.
Still, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is worth getting into a fight in a Wal-Mart about? Did one of them get the last of a "blue-light special" item or something?
Thank God for my 4 years in high school. I realize now that being a "p****" then by talking, walking, or wussing my way out of EVERY SINGLE confrontation/fight some meathead tried to start with me...
...was really just GOOD PRACTICE for my life as a CCW holder!
I'm a commercial pilot. Do you think it's a leftist idea that the government demands that I have the proper training, and demonstrate proficiency, so I can safely carry your butt in my aircraft?
No, I don't think that. But maybe over the course of your life you went to some of the same flight trainers that the 9-11 hijackers did. My point is that training will not ensure that people act in a responsible manner.
jm
No, I don't think that. But maybe over the course of your life you went to some of the same flight trainers that the 9-11 hijackers did. My point is that training will not ensure that people act in a responsible manner.
jm
Jamie C.:
No...
But if you resort to using deadly force (such as pulling a gun) you'd better be able to prove that you could reasonably believe your life was in danger. The burden of proof lies on you. I'm sure we may not have all of the facts, but on the basis of what has been presented the situation did not justify pulling a gun. The only thing that saved his neck was that neither the store, or the police, pressed the issue.
Other then being outraged at his behavior, which will reflect on all license holders in the area, I worry that Wal-Mart (with which we had a very good relationship) and others may now post their businesses - something that would directly impact on me.
I am also ticked that some members seem to think that folks in Arizona can get a CCW without any training. Something that isn't true.
No...
But if you resort to using deadly force (such as pulling a gun) you'd better be able to prove that you could reasonably believe your life was in danger. The burden of proof lies on you. I'm sure we may not have all of the facts, but on the basis of what has been presented the situation did not justify pulling a gun. The only thing that saved his neck was that neither the store, or the police, pressed the issue.
Other then being outraged at his behavior, which will reflect on all license holders in the area, I worry that Wal-Mart (with which we had a very good relationship) and others may now post their businesses - something that would directly impact on me.
I am also ticked that some members seem to think that folks in Arizona can get a CCW without any training. Something that isn't true.
Lupinus
Member
this is why we are loosing, we can't even decide amoung ourselves where the boundries lay.
You have the right to keep and bare arms, I don't see anywhere that stipulates "after goverment approved training" Do you? Maybe I missed it in some fine print cause I never could be bothered to read the stuff.
Today its an eight hour class, tomorrow its a week, a year and its an acadamey you pray you can pass. BS. I have the right to keep and bare arms I should not in any way shape or form jump through hoops like shamu to proove my worthyness to exorcise that right. Is training good? Yes very much so, but it should by no means be manditory.
You have the right to keep and bare arms, I don't see anywhere that stipulates "after goverment approved training" Do you? Maybe I missed it in some fine print cause I never could be bothered to read the stuff.
Today its an eight hour class, tomorrow its a week, a year and its an acadamey you pray you can pass. BS. I have the right to keep and bare arms I should not in any way shape or form jump through hoops like shamu to proove my worthyness to exorcise that right. Is training good? Yes very much so, but it should by no means be manditory.
History Prof
Member
Wal-Marts tend to be state-of-the-art when it comes to their security. But the SV walmart is an older one, and last time I was there was so crowded that bumping into someone was inevitable (Hey, It's WALMART'S fault for not building a superduper walmart in SV!
)BTW, assuming that the permit holder *did* throw the first punch, he should have known better (and should at the very least lose his permit). The AZ CCW class specifically discusses that you cannot use "self defense" as a defense if you started a fight.
This is why I advocate training wherever and whenever possible.
I am not saying it would absolutely have made a difference in either the OP case or this case:
Texas Firefighter Slain Chasing Robber
...but it might have.
R.I.P. Steven Jackson - Thank you for trying to make a difference.
I am not saying it would absolutely have made a difference in either the OP case or this case:
Texas Firefighter Slain Chasing Robber
...but it might have.
R.I.P. Steven Jackson - Thank you for trying to make a difference.
romma
Member
The idea that people on this board would quasi-regulate permits for people to carry is dumfounding to me to say the least. After all the hard work to have States go Shall-Issue! Move to NJ then! 
Rumble
Member
TC-TX said:
Actually, I think for a lot of people...including myself...yes, that is bad. We prohibit certain classes of people from owning guns: the young, convicted felons, the insane, and so forth. Bottom line, unless being young, a felon, or insane (among others) makes you no longer one of The People that are referenced in the Second Amendment--and assuming that you believe the Second Amendment applies to the states and all that legal stuff--then those prohibitions infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms.
I am not entirely thrilled with the idea that a verifiably insane person could own a gun, but if they were dangerous--truly dangerous--why are they even in a position to go to the gun shop?
My point being--the interpretation here is that training is an infringement. ANY external requirement beyond just wanting one is, in some way, an infringement. And therefore bad.
But I think I'm drifting away from the topic here.
+ ten million
I agree with M2 Carbine.
I don't mind how the training happens (Geoff's idea about the profficiency test is good) but I support training fully. It may not have had an effect on the case at hand, but the principle is sound. I don't think you can ever have too much training, but certainly you can have too little.
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