bogie
Member
Several times at a local indoor range, I've had police hit my target...
No real stats tho...
Marksmanship: Police vs. civilian
- Thread starter jpruitt
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Several times at a local indoor range, I've had police hit my target...
No real stats tho...
No, it is the employers job to provide adequate training. Perhaps we should just disband TRADOC, close all the service schools and require our Soldiers to be committed enough to their occupation to invest in the skills they need. It works for me, I can probably make a lot of money providing said training...
As for your example of a welder, my brother in law is a specialty welder for a large international fabricating company. His employer is continually sending him to school to learn new techniques, to be certified to inspect jobs etc. He doesn't spend his off work time welding. He spends his off work time with his family.
I don't know why all the civilians who like to shoot think that just because they consider it recreation, that everyone who carries a firearm as part of his job feels the same way. They don't. They have other interests just like you do. They have families they like to spend time with. And here's the kicker, most of them aren't paid well enough to pay for a lot of quality firearms training out of pocket. In the private sector a good three day class from a tier one instructor will run $500 +, add in the cost of 1500 rounds of ammunition, travel to the class, lodging, meals and you're looking at an investment of perhaps $2000. That $2000 buys you three days of good training where skills will be honed. However such training is perishable and somewhere around 8-10 days after conclusion of the training those skills will begin to deteriorate. In order to maintain proficiency the student needs to back on the range reviewing the lessons from the class. The more time that passes between the class and the practice session, the more the skills deteriorate. So now you are demanding that the officer take time away from his family to go to the range (because he should be committed enough to do it right?), take more money from the family budget to pay for the ammunition and perhaps the range fees, and go train some more. Let's see, given a minimum standard of one class with a tier one instructor per year at an estimated cost of $2000, a weekly practice session at let's say $60 a session, we've got $3120 more invested. That's $5120 that he doesn't have to spend on his family, because you, the taxpayer are so cheap that you expect to pay a police officer an average of $43680 a year (last figures I saw gave the average wage of a police officer at $21.00 an hour, I can tell you from personal experience that most make less then that, and that big departments in high cost of living areas drive that average up). Let's subtract the cost of minimal firearms training. That leaves us with $38500 a year. What other training that you demand your employees to have that you are you too cheap to pay for? What do you think your standard of living would be if your husband was required to pay for his training out of pocket?
No one here is making excuses but the taxpayers who are too cheap to pay for the services they demand from their government. What do you think C&GS or the War College costs? Perhaps you'd care to reimburse the taxpayer because you needed those courses to do your job and it was your responsibility to have that training, not the Army's to provide it for you..........
Jeff
sacp81170a
Member
Then how, pray tell, do you define who is a "bad shot"? Seems to me that the only way to go about that is to have an objective qualification with minimum standards and dismiss those who fail to pass that test. Oh, wait, we already do that, don't we?
ravenwolf71
Member
tpaw, I'm talking about the incident where the NYC police fired at a parked car killing a man I think on his wedding night parked outside a car a few years ago (if i'm not mistaken).
pbearperry
Member
Comparing cops and civilians in a hit probability is not even a comparison.If a civilian has to draw his gun once in his life and everything ends up ok hes batting 1000.Cops have to pull their guns too many times to even count.Plus bad guys are more afraid of civillians with guns.
csmkersh
Member
Jeff, it is usually a matter of money, as you know. But in some cases it's a matter of attitude by HQ. I've an acquaintance who is a retired MOS NYC PD. He stated several times that the folks at Police One Plaza didn't like to see the officers highly proficient marksmen. Afraid the liberal press would label them as hired killers.
pbearperry
Member
Heres an easy way to end this so most are happy.All cops suck and they are worthless, and all civilian gun owners are superior beings.OK now?Now go back to dreaming about open carry so you can get your jollies.Waa wa I want to carry my gun like the po pos.
sacp81170a
Member
csmkersh:
me:
My point exactly. There are several things militating against police being the "best" at everything we do. There's political as well as budgetary pressure against getting the best training in pure combat marksmanship, but on the whole police, as a group, are more experienced with violent confrontation than most others in our society. That experience, in my book, counts for a lot more than how well you punch paper.
I would bet that a lot of the folks here who are complaining the most would fail our yearly paper punching test the first time around...
me:
My point exactly. There are several things militating against police being the "best" at everything we do. There's political as well as budgetary pressure against getting the best training in pure combat marksmanship, but on the whole police, as a group, are more experienced with violent confrontation than most others in our society. That experience, in my book, counts for a lot more than how well you punch paper.
I would bet that a lot of the folks here who are complaining the most would fail our yearly paper punching test the first time around...
Thats even better than here. Starting pay here is 12.00 an hr. Starting pay in 2003 here was 9.27 an hr for deputies.
New Sheriff got the minimum raised due to nobody wanting it and people leaving. A married man with a kid qualifies for foodstamps. Which some are on.
Exactly! Most officers work on departments of ten sworn officers and smaller. Often pay is barely above minimum wage. But to the THR anti police crowd they are committing fraud because they choose to feed their families instead of pay for their own training....
Jeff
sacp81170a
Member
Which is part of the reason I volunteer. I don't get paid, buy my own gear, pay for my own ammo, etc. I intentionally take the shifts the younger guys would otherwise have to work like Christmas and Thanksgiving so they can spend the time with their families. Which one of you "non-LEO's" who are so critical of your local police want to step up and fill their shoes, even if it's just to give 'em a break on a holiday or two? I meet all the standards, money for training comes out of my own pocket, and rather than ask for anyone's taxes to be raised, I pitch in and actually put my butt on the line. Does a single one of you have that commitment?
Sadly enough, that's why a lot of the small PD's around here have a hard time keeping quality folks on the force. The good ones find better jobs with other agencies.
sacp81170a
Member
Uh-oh. Now you're gonna kick off that whole debate about how police officers inconveniencing the public in the name of "officer safety"(otherwise known as "good tactics") is an unconstitutional infringement on their rights, demeaning to non-LEO's, and evidence of the "militarization" of police. Best not to get the anti-police faction cranked up...
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Jeff White,
Indeed? Then why isn't my employer paying off my student loans. Or for that matter the student loans of the doctors, nurses and especially the paramedics in the ambulances?
As for your brother-in-law, did his employer train him in the basics of his trade? If they did, please have him send me an application. It has to have better pay and benefits than a lab tech. Speciality training is comparing apples to oranges. I'm making the effort not to insult your intelligence, please return the favor. Thank you.
Selena
Indeed? Then why isn't my employer paying off my student loans. Or for that matter the student loans of the doctors, nurses and especially the paramedics in the ambulances?
As for your brother-in-law, did his employer train him in the basics of his trade? If they did, please have him send me an application. It has to have better pay and benefits than a lab tech. Speciality training is comparing apples to oranges. I'm making the effort not to insult your intelligence, please return the favor. Thank you.
Selena
You remembered wrong. What MA found was after the ISP went to autos the hit percentage went way up, nearly double the average LEO shooting encounter. Hit percentage was about 66%.
The statistics really don't tell anything because you first have to understand the dynamics of a LEO shooting engagement. Who typically fires the first shot in a LEO encounter? It's the BG and the LEO is returning fire, while under fire. When the LEO makes the approach to the BG the BG has already determined that at some point he's going to fire. He's already made the mental and often physical movement to fire. The LEO is reacting to the BG's actions. How many can honestly say they can regularly hit a moving target who is already firing at them? If you think it's easy then you haven't been there.
Too many internet commandos brag how they go to the range and can hit a make believe target X number of times. These are the same internet commandos who espouse they'll take a head shot. They just show they don't know what they're talking about and have never been thru it. I've spent a lot of years on the range and never yet had one of those targets fire back let alone start shooting at me first. Even with simulations it's not near the same. Even with the sim/paint guns you still know that at the end of the training you're still going home with no additional holes in your body.
Exactly. People don't realize what most of the LEOs get paid. Jeff is correct about the size of most agencies. In about 2000 when the local COP thought I was retiring he asked if I'd come to work for him. He had talked to the town board and managed to talk them into offerring me $9.50 per hour. Not going to happen for that money.
Even now, a friend of mine, retired from another state agency, just started with a county agency as a sworn deputy in charge of the jail. Because of his previous experience the county board agreed to give him premium pay of $12/hr.
sacp81170a
Member
Why did you take out your student loans in the first place? (Hint: It probably has everything to do with the monetary incentive of qualifying for a higher paying job.) As a bonus question, do you pay for ongoing education and training out of your own pocket? After all, if you were truly committed to your profession, you would, right?
Explain which department pays bonuses for higher achievement in marksmanship.
As a matter of fact, the department pays for its officers to attend the academy in my state.
Still need better documentation. NYC police (not all/in general) discharge their firearms almost on a daily basis. There are too many incidents that are alike. But just by reading your post, firing at vehicle and hitting metal and glass, will not always mean that every round you fire will hit the occupant inside. Bullets deflect and shatter, especially when using hollow points, which I presume is what they were using. Anyway, it's a moot issue. Unless you can provide facts, it's just hearsay and opinion. Let's move on, this will take us nowhere.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi sacp81170a
In Indiana as well.
Because I had a profession I was interested in pursuing that had certain requirements. Had I been going for the money I would have studied law and gone into practice with my cousin.
Education dealing with Chem engineering yes. The classes I take for the benefit of the hospital are paid by the hospital. Once again, you are comparing basic knowledge to specialized training required for a specific task within a specific industry. I realize 'reasonable deception' is allowable on the job, but in polite company it is considered dishonesty.
Selena
In Indiana as well.
Because I had a profession I was interested in pursuing that had certain requirements. Had I been going for the money I would have studied law and gone into practice with my cousin.
Education dealing with Chem engineering yes. The classes I take for the benefit of the hospital are paid by the hospital. Once again, you are comparing basic knowledge to specialized training required for a specific task within a specific industry. I realize 'reasonable deception' is allowable on the job, but in polite company it is considered dishonesty.
Selena
Jeff: To say that the taxpayers are too cheap and such is not a valid statement. The taxpayers don't set budget policies. Our tax is collected and that is the last we see of it. If it turns into pork for some pet project, then that is what happens. If it turns into budget for fixing pot-holes, then that is what happens. I don't think that everyone is for an increase in LE budget, but I do think that there are MORE people who would like to see and increase...that is if we got to choose where our money went. I think the majority of people, like myself, would love to see our cops, firefighters, teachers get massive increases in pay and resources. We don't have to give more (taxes), the beaurocrats have to learn how do budget, starting at the top. Pet projects, pork (not the other white meat), and other government waste takes up a lot of our hard earned money. The gov't tells us that there isn't the money for increases in LE budget, fire dept budget, etc, while they fund all kinds of ridiculous crap that has no social benefit whatsoever. This came out a bit longer than I had intended, but my point is that the budget of the departments is not a result of "cheap" taxpayers. I would much rather see the departments get a budget increase than have the money go to subsidize another Wal-mart.
The military analogy is spot on: You get what you pay for, and commit to over the long haul. It is not by accident but design that our fighting forces are the best.
Law enforcement agency wise, that is equally true. The better agencies were built that way, and the quality of their employees is reflected; it is a market thing. If your agenicies and their employees leave much to be desired, look up, typically past the administration through the politicians and into the ballot boxes.
I've been lucky, having always worked in progressive training environments, and come to think about it, usually around them, too. Many of my peers cannot say the same, and their ability to keep up with what I consider "par" is typically beyond them. Firearms knowledge, skill, and ability being only a component of the broader equation; a relatively minor one at that.
"Aargh, he blasphemes!"
One man's blasphemy is another man's truth. It isn't that important. I wish that it were, but it is what it is.
Law enforcement agency wise, that is equally true. The better agencies were built that way, and the quality of their employees is reflected; it is a market thing. If your agenicies and their employees leave much to be desired, look up, typically past the administration through the politicians and into the ballot boxes.
I've been lucky, having always worked in progressive training environments, and come to think about it, usually around them, too. Many of my peers cannot say the same, and their ability to keep up with what I consider "par" is typically beyond them. Firearms knowledge, skill, and ability being only a component of the broader equation; a relatively minor one at that.
"Aargh, he blasphemes!"
One man's blasphemy is another man's truth. It isn't that important. I wish that it were, but it is what it is.
sacp81170a
Member
Polite company? 'Scuse me, lady, but I'm really glad I don't work for you. The classes you take for the hospital are paid for by the hospital, and rightly so. I budget training for my employees every year, but I don't budget for them to train on a piece of software or hardware that we don't have and don't intend to acquire. Even so, in the IT industry, their knowledge and experience has value and the company pays for their training with the full knowledge that they may take that expertise and find a better paying job. In fact, I fully expect them to. If they weren't ambitious, self-motivated people, I wouldn't have hired them. Even so, our training budget will get cut this year, so we'll concentrate on the "must-haves".
Basic knowledge? If you haven't worked in law enforcement, how would you presume to know what's "basic knowledge" and what is not? In fact, having experience in both worlds, as it were, I find your attitude elitist and arrogant. We "hired help" (I pay for the privilege of exposing myself to danger and stress, by the way, out of a sense of duty to my community) in law enforcement have far more specialized knowledge than you realize. In "polite company", we don't look down our noses at others simply because we consider ourselves to be their betters.
BTW, I have a BS in Industrial Engineering, and an MS in Management Information Systems. The average street cop has far more ability to deal with all kinds of people than any of my "normal" colleagues will ever have.
Thanks for so politely implying that I'm a liar. A courageous person would have just come out and said so.
PS: Your analogies still don't work.
Well said. In fact, your whole post is the most sensible one I've read in about 3 pages, including my own.
ravenwolf71
Member
tpaw, I believe it was the " Bell " case ( I believe). Very high profile a few years ago
csmkersh
Member
Here's on article on the Bell shooting by members of NYPD.
The officers were subsequently exonerated.
pbearperry
Member
Is there any wonder why a lot of cops develope the them and us mentality.Keep up the good work boys.
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