Marksmanship: Police vs. civilian

[Jeff White]

Indeed? Then why isn't my employer paying off my student loans. Or for that matter the student loans of the doctors, nurses and especially the paramedics in the ambulances?

Why would your employer pay off your student loans? What has that to do with your unrealistic expectation that a police officer totally fund all of his training. If you want your student loans paid off, send me your information in a PM and I'll forward it to my son who's on recruiting duty. Maybe you'll qualify for an enlistment option that pays off your student loans.

As for your brother-in-law, did his employer train him in the basics of his trade? If they did, please have him send me an application. It has to have better pay and benefits than a lab tech. Speciality training is comparing apples to oranges. I'm making the effort not to insult your intelligence, please return the favor. Thank you.

No you aren't trying to insult my intelligence you are trying to change the subject. The basic academy is paid for in Illinois either by the agency or by the Standards and Training Board for small agencies that can't afford it.

But basic LE training isn't the issue here. No one works without completing it. But without sustainment training certain skills deteriorate. Shooting is one of those skills. If you wish for an officer to meet a higher standard you had better be able to pony up the money so that he/she can maintain that proficiency. If you don't, you will be left with officers who can only meet the basic standard.

Isn't your husband an Army officer? Why don't you ask him how frequently his soldiers have to retrain on a task to maintain proficiency. Then ask him how many of them would maintain the proficiency that was built up through hours of sweat on the ranges and training areas if they never trained on that task again, but were left to train on their own time and on their own dollar. Didn't you say he was with Special Forces? Ask him how many rounds his team fires in a pre-deployment work up. Then ask him how many of his men would do the workup on their own time and on their own dollar.

I think you are letting your hatred of the police cloud your judgment.

Jeff: To say that the taxpayers are too cheap and such is not a valid statement. The taxpayers don't set budget policies.

Don't they vote where you live? What about city council and county board meetings, don't they have them? I'm not buying that the taxpayers don't set budget policies. The people who do set budget policies work for the same taxpayers the police do.

but I do think that there are MORE people who would like to see and increase...that is if we got to choose where our money went. I think the majority of people, like myself, would love to see our cops, firefighters, teachers get massive increases in pay and resources. We don't have to give more (taxes), the beaurocrats have to learn how do budget, starting at the top. Pet projects, pork (not the other white meat), and other government waste takes up a lot of our hard earned money. The gov't tells us that there isn't the money for increases in LE budget, fire dept budget, etc, while they fund all kinds of ridiculous crap that has no social benefit whatsoever. This came out a bit longer than I had intended, but my point is that the budget of the departments is not a result of "cheap" taxpayers. I would much rather see the departments get a budget increase than have the money go to subsidize another Wal-mart.

Then get out and get involved. It is so very easy to get involved at the local level where your police department's budget is set. I bet you can talk one on one with your alderman, councilman, county board member by simply making a phone call. I bet if you got all your friends who felt the same way to call, and then show up at a council meeting you could get things changed.

The people who are subsidizing strip malls with with your tax dollars instead of funding basic services get away with it because the voters are too apathetic to stop it or because the voter's priorities are closer to the promise of more jobs that strip mall represents.

I blame the taxpayers because ultimately the politicians do things that they think will please them because that's what gets them re-elected.

Jeff

 

[Officers'Wife]

<I think you are letting your hatred of the police cloud your judgment.>

Don't assume just because someone disagrees with you they are anti-police. At best it makes you look foolish. At worst... the worst is not high road and I'll refrain.

Basic markmanship is a duty not a fringe benefit. Police training in tactics, psychology and the law is a justified expense. Teaching some chimp not to point a deadly weapon at a non target is not.

How to turn on the siren and operate a metal detector in the court house is a bona fide training expense. Being able to hit a target a reason amount of times is a duty inherent to the idea of the citizen militia.

Yes, my husband's people are trained and retrained on a regular basis. Mostly in field tactics and familiarization of new equipment. However, if LEO's were willing to accept the same weapons procedure as the military most of my objections would disappear. Mainly when they are not on duty the weapons are turnen in and locked up securely.

Selena

 

[Tom Servo]

How to turn on the siren and operate a metal detector in the court house is a bona fide training expense. Being able to hit a target a reason amount of times is a duty inherent to the idea of the citizen militia.

Really good point. Unfortunately, the civilian militia has been turning into a pale shadow over the last 40 years.

To sum up the last seven pages, we all wish law enforcement would receive more training in marksmanship (there's no such thing as "too much training" for anybody). There are some very real (and unfortunate) budgetary impediments to this.

Is there really anything else to say on the subject?

 

[Erik]

Selena,
Your position evolving to notions of citizen militia and constructive possession of weapons at shift's end has... what exactly to do with the wide variety commitment to personal and institutional training found throughout law enforcement?

 

[Jeff White]

Learn to take things personnally, it's you I don't like.

I take a certain pride in the people who don't like me. Who a person's enemies are tells a lot about a person don't you think?

Basic markmanship is a duty not a fringe benefit.

Basic marksmanship is not the issue. No one works who can't qualify. It's just that simple.

Being able to hit a target a reason amount of times is a duty inherent to the idea of the citizen militia.

Citizen militia? How did the militia get into this conversation? What pray tell are the statutory requirements for a member of the citizen's militia? How many targets must one hit and under what conditions? Where is this spelled out in the US Code or the law of any state?

Yes, my husband's people are trained and retrained on a regular basis. Mostly in field tactics and familiarization of new equipment.

You are evading the question. The question was, do you think they should be required to conduct all of their training after IET on their personal time and pay for all expenses out of pocket? Id like you to answer that please. If you don't think they should then your hypocrisy is showing.

However, if LEO's were willing to accept the same weapons procedure as the military most of my objections would disappear. Mainly when they are not on duty the weapons are turnen in and locked up securely.

I'm sure you'd personally accept this requirement for the citizen's militia, just head down to your local armory and turn all of your weapons in. Then when the citizens militia is called out, you can head down there and pick them up.

Jeff

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Tom,

Really good point. Unfortunately, the civilian militia has been turning into a pale shadow over the last 40 years.

As long as the unofficial militia is included in the US Code the color and clarity of it's shadow is irrelevant. Preparation for militia duty is a duty defined by federal law. Marksmanship is a part of militia duty. One would think, those that enforce the law would be in the forefront of assuming that duty.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

I'm sure you'd personally accept this requirement for the citizen's militia, just head down to your local armory and turn all of your weapons in. Then when the citizens militia is called out, you can head down there and pick them up.

When and if I am required under USC to have a duty arm I will be happy to do so.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Yes, my husband's people are trained and retrained on a regular basis. Mostly in field tactics and familiarization of new equipment. However, if LEO's were willing to accept the same weapons procedure as the military most of my objections would disappear. Mainly when they are not on duty the weapons are turnen in and locked up securely.

Madam, you are speaking way out of line.

if LEO's were willing to accept the same weapons procedure as the military most of my objections would disappear.

What "weapons procedures" are you referring to by chance?

The ONLY military units that are even REMOTELY proficient with their weapons, outside of special operations units, are line infantry, and even the line infantry do NOT train as frequently as they should. The combat support and combat service support units are pretty much abysmal when it comes to weapons proficiency.

Like the LEO community they have LOW standards to "qualify" and are only required to do so twice a year. Like the LEO community, the ONLY proficient shooters are those that take a vested interest into that particular aspect of their profession and train on their own, or were actually raised shooting.

Outside of special operations and a select few line infantry units, most military organizations are pretty much CLUELESS on how to develop actual marksmanship skills, and their leaders do NOT emphasize or demand their soldiers to be proficient, but simply require them to "check the block" and "qualify".

Though your opinion may be heartfelt, it is an opinion that is ignorant nonetheless.

 

[Officers'Wife]

The question was, do you think they should be required to conduct all of their training after IET on their personal time and pay for all expenses out of pocket?

Basic markmanship? No, not at all. The army pays for what it needs from it's people. Again, tactics and familiarization should be paid for by the employer, same as for the LEO. Ammunition for target practice? Not after basic training.

Basic marksmanship is not the issue. No one works who can't qualify. It's just that simple.

As it should be, but it is not up to the taxpayer to fund that ability. With the possible exception of the facilities to practice. And that facility should be open to the public that is paying for it. Because, quite frankly. the hostiles on the street know full well that if they shoot a civilian they have something like a 1 in 10 chance of getting caught. Should they shoot an LEO getting caught becomes a near certainty. Ergo, it's the civilians that need the facility more.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Joe,

Actually I saw about six posts ago that I am arguing one point and Jeff is arguing a completely different point. Once he started his "hatred of cops" BS I saw he deserves no consideration as he speaks from arrogance not knowledge. Therefore I'm under no obligation to try to educate him.

Selena

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Eric

Your position evolving to notions of citizen militia and constructive possession of weapons at shift's end has... what exactly to do with the wide variety commitment to personal and institutional training found throughout law enforcement?

Since the thread is markmanship, what is the relevance to this training you speak of? Should the taxpayer be responsible for the training of LEO's in basic marksmanship and safe weapons' handling or is it the responsibility of the individual LEO? In the real world an employee is responsible for maintaining his own basic skills. Public servants want a free ride and insult the public if they dare disagree.

Selena

 

[bogie]

Everyone here who is complaining about police marksmanship needs to start circulating a petition to raise their taxes to pay for more training. If you are too cheap to pay for adequate training for your employees, you have no right to complain about their proficiency.

Jeff, to get back to this...

I don't mind paying more for 'em to train more, and to practice more. But if they avoid the training and practicing until the day before they have to shoot their qual, I'd -really- like the right to be holding the button for the embedded taser to be used when they screw up.

"Why are these 9mm holes on my target? I shoot .45s? Oh... It's zap time again!"

Just think of it as a bit of reinforcement for the slower learners among the ranks...

And Jeff, have you looked at the news lately about the St. Louis department? It goes all the way to the top... Or maybe from the top...

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Uh, Whut?

Wow.

Talk about your thread drift!

This reminds of the experiment with the room full of mouse traps and ping pong balls.

Jeff, hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna put a lid on this.

And, with that, it's past my bed time.