Merchant / Store rights to search my bags

[GlowinPontiac]

be careful at walmart. the greeters WILL try to physically stop you if the alarms go off and will even follow you to your car and take down your plate number.

just whip out your cellphone and tell them you are calling the police and watch how quick they apologize because unless they are trained/certified lp they cannot touch you or follow you off the sidewalk.

oh and if they do get your plate number expect a visit from leo as wallmart will tell them they saw you shoplift not just that they forgot to deactivate a tag on something you bought. happened to a friend and he had to have the police check the parking lot camera footage to prove that he did not wallk out with a full cart of stolen goods like walmart said. (he had a single bag with one dvd that the idiot cashier did not deactivate).

 

[kermit315]

Glowinpontiac, that seems like it would be filing a false police report to me, but IANAL.

that said, my position is that if the alarm goes off, I dont have a problem of them checking my bag. it is when they just walk up to me and expect me to hand over my reciept and search through my bags that i will tell them to get bent if it comes to that. Usually I just keep walking. I stand out like a sore thumb here though, and quite frankly think that the greeters dont want to mess with me in the first place. (6' tall, 200LBS, with a ford hat, gerber on my belt and gerber clipped on my pocket, boots and pants, regardless of how hot it is out, compared to little baggy pants Mexican thugs)

 

[ozwyn]

I prefer to pause and make eye contact with someone there. Typically they just wave it on and that's that.

Just like any other situation, de-escalation is a penny of prevention

 

[kurtmax]

I normally do check my receipt before leaving a store. Not just for items they forgot to ring up (I normally watch while they ring stuff up anyways), but for duplicates, etc. It's alot easier to settle that sort of stuff immediately. I've caught things they forgot to ring up a few times before and had them ring them up.

Fact is, I don't shoplift/steal/whatever. Any 'probable cause' they can concoct to hold me is worthless. Probably cause is much harder to establish than reasonable suspicion (as someone said earlier).

There is no case law in my state, but I consider an alarm going off to not be probable cause. There is no reason to believe I'm stealing anything, especially considering how many false alarms they have. Some non-human machine starts making a racket, so what?

I've yet to be stopped (mainly just yelled at by employees or whatever to come back. I just ignore them) or followed to my car or anything. If anybody ever decides to detain me or anything they are going to get hurt as I'll immediately assume I'm being assaulted. (How do I know the person that grabs me behind my back is an employee or joe mugger? And no, it wouldn't be a shooty shooty hurt... I'm not that stupid.)

 

[joab]

the VA law specifically assigns the electronic BEEP as probable cause for a search by a store employee. I

I don't know if that is law in FL or not, but it is my polocy

If I have set off an alarm I may have given the store reason to believe that I have stolen something and there is the chance that I actually do have something in my cart that I did not pay for.
That has happened to me once,. I grabbed a cart from inside that had some flyers in the bottom of the basket and just put my stuff on top of them. There was a Zippo under the flyers that I and the cashier never saw.

I could have just kept walking or made an ass of myself spouting off about my rights, but than they would have had a much harder time dismissing it as the accident that it was

If they stop me just to stop me I don't have time for that, but I don't think they even do that anymore
I usually told them that they were welcome to follow me to my car and help me unload if they wanted but I didn't have time to be searched
Actually only happened once and I was no ruder to her than she was to me
I told the lady I wasn't sure where my receipt was and she told me I needed to get sure cause I couldn't leave without her checking it

 

[Brad Johnson]

Short answer ... Their place of business, their rules.

They may not be very convenient rules, but until it's your name on the sign you either live by them or shop somewhere else.

Brad

 

[DogBonz]

The way that I see it...

I know that I didn’t steal anything, so why would I stop. On the rare occasion that this has happened, I just keep walking and pretend that I didn’t hear the alarm or the idgit at the door. If the get up close I will just pretend to not speak English, mutter something in Italian and do my best accent and tell them to hava-nice-a-day.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Originally posted by GlowinPontiac:
be careful at walmart. the greeters WILL try to physically stop you ...

They would give Grammaw working part time to score extra cash authority to do this?

... and will even follow you to your car and take down your plate number.

Let's suppose that happened, and further suppose that the police ran my plate, find out where I live and paid me a visit there. I will meet them outside, explain what really happened, and if they want to press the issue, tell them to come back with a search warrant. And I'm a terrible housekeeper, so good luck actually finding anything.

 

[kurtmax]

Short answer ... Their place of business, their rules.

They may not be very convenient rules, but until it's your name on the sign you either live by them or shop somewhere else.

Not necessarily. When you have a place "open to the general public" about the only thing you can really do is ban somebody from coming back.

I just don't consider being searched like a criminal to be a priority. I bought the stuff so it's not theirs to search anymore anyways.

I'm not trying to be an ass or cause trouble. I do agree that de-escalation is a good thing. Problem is: being searched is not something that I voluntarily submit to. Period.

 

[Brad Johnson]

being searched is not something that I voluntarily submit to. Period.

Again - Their store, their rules. Your only options are to live by them, shop elsewhere, or open a place of your own.

Brad

 

[kermit315]

agree with kurtmax. they INVITE the public in, they have to make nice the public. i am not saying bend over and take it, but wanting to look through every bag is too far. if you have probable cause, then I will play the reindeer games, however somebody walking into my path of exit expecting me to just submit aint happening. and yes, i will walk away, and good luck finding my address. out of state plates and all, if they want to do that much work to find me, i will explain everything to them. they wont like the opinion part when i get that far, and i will get that far.

 

[kurtmax]

Again - Their store, their rules. Your only options are to live by them, shop elsewhere, or open a place of your own.

Wrong. I don't agree to any rules walking into a store. The store has given me permission to shop and such, and can still legally ban me from the store if they like.

I don't walk into wal-mart signing a form saying "I do whatever you want me to do because it's your store and your rules".

I don't shop at Costco or Sam's club and such, but I probably wouldn't since I would have to abide by their rules. (I agree, in the case of Sam's club and such, that you should abide by their rules. You have signed a written contract.)

If I invite somebody into my residence I'm not going to search them as they leave. Nor would I have the legal ability to do so.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

Depends on the kind of store...

A gun shop might be a bad place to do this.

See, but the gun shop (most often) knows you by name or at least recognizes you. And of course, doesn't rely on those tags.

The thing that burns me is that one of leading chains of home imrpovment/lumber yards will ask to look in your trunk prior to allowing you to exit the yard. Hence, I no longer shop there; they do in fairness anounce this policy via a sign at the entrance.

 

[rdhood]

My position has always been that I already paid for the items in my bag, and I'm not stopping regardless of some false alarm going off. It does happen from time to time, and I've yet to be pursued as a result of my ignoring the alarm. If they have some kind of evidence that I actually did steal something, they can get law enforcement involved. Otherwise, I've already wasted enough time in the checkout line, so forget about wasting any more of my time.

Absofrikkinlutely.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Wrong. I don't agree to any rules walking into a store.

Actually, you do. Using your logic of "don't agree to anything" it would be okay for you to walk in, grab whatever you wanted, and leave. After all, you didn't agree to pay for anything when you walked in the door.

Voluntarily entering the premises is considered an unspoken agreement to certain codes of conduct. These include not acting in a malicious or destructive manner, paying for any items before removing them from the store, and allowing the merchant a reasonable amount of security to protect their inventory. Until you set foot off the premises you abide by this unspoken, but presumed, code of conduct, up to and including proof of purchase if an item in an enclosed container (i.e. bag) sets of a security alarm. If it is a posted policy and you voluntarily enter the store, consider yourself SOL in the "can't make me do that" column.

By the way, I said those were the rules. I didn't say I necessarily liked them.

Brad

 

[kurtmax]

It depends on the state. And no, I didn't agree to any rules walking into the store. Shoplifting is already illegal, regardless of store rules. So obviously walking in, grabbing something, and walking out, is illegal, and they can stop you if they like. Malicious actions are also generally illegal, whether you are in a store or not.

The problem is, unless they see you stealing, on camera on in person, it's hard to establish probable cause to detain you.

In addition, even if it was illegal to not stop when asked to, no store is going to trust their employees with such a liability. They are just going to train them to let you go...

 

[K3]

Actually, you do. Using your logic of "don't agree to anything" it would be okay for you to walk in, grab whatever you wanted, and leave. After all, you didn't agree to pay for anything when you walked in the door.

Brad

I always walk past the greeters when they look like they want to check my belongings. I simply tell them that they will not check my belongings. What I have already paid for belongs to ME, therefore MY rules apply. As far as I am concerned, the space immediately around me is sovereign territory. They best keep their booger hooks off of me.

The moment somebody other than a LEO tries to physically detain me, two things will occur.

1) The attempted detention will fail.
2) The company will lose my business forever and publically ripping them will become my new hobby. Additionally, I will raise a major stink right up the chain of command.


To put it bluntly, I will not be treated like a thief and presumed guilty. They need to put better systems in place so that they don't have to harass paying customers. Hell, WalMart ought to check the back door and their employees. I'm willing to bet a lot more goes out the back than out the front.

 

[Brad Johnson]

And no, I didn't agree to any rules walking into the store.

Yes, you did.

In pretty much every state I can think of voluntary patronage of a public/retail establishment subjects you to all kinds of presumed codes of conduct, not the least of which is allowing the merchant reasonable security for their store/employees/inventory.

You can argue the issue until you're blue in the face, but that won't change anything. It still boils down to "Their Place, Their Rules." Agree to abide by them or shop somewhere else.

I always walk past the greeters when they look like they want to check my belongings. I simply tell them that they will not check my belongings. What I have already paid for belongs to ME, therefore MY rules apply. As far as I am concerned, the space immediately around me is sovereign territory. They best keep their booger hooks off of me.

The moment somebody other than a LEO tries to physically detain me, two things will occur.

1) The attempted detention will fail.
2) The company will lose my business forever and publically ripping them will become my new hobby. Additionally, I will raise a major stink right up the chain of command.

You forgot #3) Looking like a "whacko kook right-wing nut" as they paste your picture all over the 6 oclock news and tell how you went postal at Wal-Mart (including new high-def security video). Screaming and ranting about it might make you feel better, but it won't help you or anyone else get their point across.

For an example search YouTube for the vid of some old codger having a screaming fit about getting a ticket while the trooper calmly sits there trying not to laugh. I bet that old dude had some pretty absolute "ain't gonna" beliefs he wanted the trooper to know. Only now...


Brad

 

[rdhood]

In pretty much every state I can think of voluntary patronage of a public/retail establishment subjects you to all kinds of presumed codes of conduct, not the least of which is allowing the merchant reasonable security for their store/employees/inventory.

It is not reasonable to search my bags 10 seconds/30 feet after I checked out, nor to make me wait an additional 5 minutes. It is not reasonable to assume that there is a crime being committed every time the alarm goes off if the alarm goes off a hundred times a day when no crime has been committed.

 

[Brad Johnson]

It is not reasonable to search my bags 10 seconds/30 feet after I checked out, nor to make me wait an additional 5 minutes. It is not reasonable to assume that there is a crime being committed every time the alarm goes off if the alarm goes off a hundred times a day when no crime has been committed.

Solution? Build your own place and you can be as "reasonable" as you see fit.

Until then...

Brad

 

[kurtmax]

Obviously they can reasonably protect their inventory/etc. That doesn't mean they can just search whoever they wish...

 

[K3]

You forgot #3) Looking like a "whacko kook right-wing nut" as they paste your picture all over the 6 oclock news and tell how you went postal at Wal-Mart (including new high-def security video). Screaming and ranting about it might make you feel better, but it won't help you or anyone else get their point across.

For an example search YouTube for the vid of some old codger having a screaming fit about getting a ticket while the trooper calmly sits there trying not to laugh. I bet that old dude had some pretty absolute "ain't gonna" beliefs he wanted the trooper to know. Only now...


Brad

Your Youtube example is about Law Enforcement. That's an orange. I am talking about the apple. Some schmuck in a blue vest grabbing me is different. The type of oxygen thief occupying the blue vest determines the level of response. A 98 lb blue haired old lady just needs to be told to let go in a polite but firm voice. Get the picture?

What's with the pithy, smartass, right wing kook comment? Stop with the red herrings or strawmen, or whatever the hell they're called. I never said anything about screaming and ranting. I am simply stating that an attempted detention by someone other than a LEO will fail. Don't read into it any more than is necessary.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That doesn't mean they can just search whoever they wish...

Agreed, however in this case it isn't some random search of all patrons or passersby. They are reacting to a security device which has presented reasonable suspicion a crime may have been committed. In this case you are paying for the sins of others who might actually have tried to take something, but it is the policy nonetheless.

Brad

 

[Brad Johnson]

Your Youtube example is about Law Enforcement. That's an orange. I am talking about the apple. Some schmuck in a blue vest grabbing me is different. A 98 lb blue haired old lady just needs to be told to let go in a polite but firm voice.

No, my YouTube example was about attitude. Yours, specifically (see points 1 and 2 in your above post for a reminder). And, in case you didn't finish thinking through your proposed scenario above, the only way "detention will fail" is if you forceably make your way out the door.

By the way, that 98 lb lady you just pushed away because she tried to stop you? She got your plate number and is on the phone with the police, who are on their way to arrest you for felony assault.

Brad

 

[kurtmax]

It's not reasonable suspicion. Plus they need 'probable cause', which is something much harder to establish.

Some electronic device that starts beeping means nothing.

1. Most criminals wouldn't be stupid enough to walk through some device such as that with it still active.
2. There are too many false positives. They might as well have a little hamster inside the thing pushing a button whenever it feels like it.
3. How can they say it was you that set it off. There are normally other people walking through the device at the same time as me....

EDIT:

And the old lady was shown on camera grabbing him before he pushed her away. You don't grab people mmmkay? That is also considered assault... old lady or not. It's not like he broke her legs and smashed her head on the door...