Mexico: Walls won't stop migrants

[Waitone]

I find it interesting the number of posters willing to shoot unarmed civilians who are breaking the law. Change the topic from immigration to concealed carry and those who post such comments would be roundly criticized and rightly so.

If these posts are even remotely representative of the attitude of Joe and Martha Sixpack, the frustration level is quite high and bordering on taking extreme action. Our ruling class (those responsible for our current illegal border crossing mess) seems to be oblivious of the depth of animosity out there.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Revolutions begin in similar environments.

 

[RealGun]

It's already illegal to hire an illegal alien!!!! That law has been on the books for a while...Companies need to collect Social Security numbers for all employees, except a small number of documented migrant workers who work agriculture under a special program... that's it..all other U.S. workers are suppose to be registered!

How in God's name are we suppose to make "U.S. jobs and public services unavailable" to illegals???? Let's put up a wall and cut off the supply!! Why are you against a wall???

Obviously the problem is how easy it is to get a Social Security number. The law assumes that if you are here and are volunteering for SS deductions, you must be legal. Come on down! The Real ID card is an attempt at a solution.

I am "against a wall", i.e. building one, because I don't know how a wall would work without killing people, women and children included, trying to cross it. Not only that, but there would need to be a large bureaucracy created around the existence, management, and enforcement of such a wall. That's assuming there was a way to pay for building such a thing, only to be torn down later for political correctness reasons, probably before the wall expense was paid off.

The funny part is that cheap Mexican labor would probably not be in good supply for building this wall.

 

[proud2deviate]

Why not just take America to Mexico? We already support however many umpteen millions of their citizens. Take Mexico (I mean this quite literally. If you can't handle your country, you get it taken away and you go stand in the corner and think about what you did wrong.) and install American infrastructure. I have no problem with benevolent imperialism.

Much as I'd love to free the opressed the wolrd over, the fact of the matter is America isn't quite big enough for another 5.75 billion people. Either close the doors or make America bigger.

 

[longeyes]

Mexico is right? News for you=> The wall is being built to keep Mexico out! As far as whether it will work, the Wall of China worked, the wall dividing Germany worked, and other walls work... who cares what Mexico thinks or feels about this wall?

My poiint was that there are more effective ways to deal with this problem than building a wall but I am, in fact, FOR the wall, if only because it would at least reduce the amount of the flow. When I said Mexico is right I meant that I believe that a literal wall is not the best solution. I also have my doubts that any wall likely to be a real deterrrent is going to be built. And the reason for that is that for all the recent posturing the people who actually run America--and that's not those of us on this forum--don't want a wall and certainly don't want a cut-off in the influx of illegal aliens (aka cheap labor).

We keep coming back to the source: the politicians, on both sides of the border, who are letting this happen against the will of the people. Instead of being constructive we need to be destructive: that means finding ways to replace the politicians who are to blame with those more amenable to our views. We have elections coming up in a few months; that's a good place to get the message across.

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

am i the only one

i think i see this shooting of a mexican citizen as the battle cry for the comeing revelution. like mexicos rmember the alamo i think that that is going to be a very differnt type of conflict we cannot simoly send troops to mexico cause of the borders being so close it will be like a invasion of U.S. soil and if they alley them selves with china or russia to get the fire power and money the war will be jsut like the last two although this time on our soil.

 

[longeyes]

i think i see this shooting of a mexican citizen as the battle cry for the comeing revelution

We're definitely at a crossroads, amigo, no doubt about that.

 

[Cosmoline]

Make it a civil offense with a set rate of damages to hire an illegal alien and allow anyone to sue the person or company who hired an illegal alien. That would dry it up pretty quickly.

Yup. Until you hit the demand side, you can forget solving the problem. I've long advocated infiltrating the bunches of illegals on the street corners and busting the gringos who scream "DOS DOS" to get some cheap illegal labor for their garden projects. I have some sympathy for the illegal workers, but the folks who hire them like that deserve to have their faces blown off. It's the ultimate in lazy American hypocrisy.

Combine that with a very solid wall and the problem will become much less serious than it currently is. Putting illegals in US prisons will just eat up more US resources. Besides the people who pay the price should be the ones who benefit most from the illegal labor--specifically the agribusiness and employers who rely on illegal labor to keep the profits coming in. Start putting CEO's in prison for hiring illegals and I GUARANTEE it will stop overnight. But since much of the GOP warchest comes from these criminals, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[slzy]

when i see a mexican flag in the united states,i may understand what some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.

 

[Cosmoline]

You're just seeing the true cost of cheap fruit and cheap labor.

 

[longeyes]

Most of us agree, I thinki, that removing the carrot FIRMLY is the best way to go (though not the only means available to us). We also agree that it's not going to happen because the people who profit most have friends in high places.

Ergo?

I see nothing short of a massive grass-roots movement that says a defiant NO to any pol who won't do what's necessary as the only viable course at this point. Unfortunately, though there's a lot of noise on the margins, much of the public, even those who are against the illegal influx, remains passive and unorganized. This is the kind of mass movement that becomes its own party, going beyond illegal immigration to the other issues--political representatiion is the essence--it impinges on.

 

[Biker]

Cosmo...

It's already a Federal crime to knowingly hire an illegal. We just need to enforce existing laws. Guess that would be asking too much, huh? Just let a few gun owners start converting their ARs and AKs to full auto and see what happens.
Biker

 

[lostone1413]

when i see a mexican flag in the united states,i may understand what some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.

To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

 

[Sindawe]

Blood in the water?

Washington Orchard Workers Win Class Certification in Suit Against Major Grower

First-of-its-kind suit claims apple growers intentionally hired illegal immigrants to depress legal workers' pay


July 14, 2004

YAKIMA, Wash. - A group of legal immigrants residing in Washington state's apple-producing Yakima Valley won a major legal victory yesterday after a U.S. District Court judge certified a class action lawsuit against executives of one of the state's largest orchard owners charging that the executives conspired to depress farmworkers' wages by hiring large numbers of illegal workers to set low wage standards for orchard and packing house work.

The class action lawsuit was originally filed in United States District Court in March of 2000 under the Federal Racketeer and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and is the first of its kind in the U.S. where legal workers have sued agricultural employers about intentional wage depression through the use of illegal labor.

Now certified as a class action, the suit represents an estimated 20,000 packing house and orchard workers of Zirkle Fruit Company, based in Selah, Washington and those legal workers hired by Selective Employment Agency to work in Zirkle's packing house operations.

Seattle attorney Steve Berman filed the lawsuit on behalf of three named plaintiffs.

"We know from our investigation that a large percentage of workers hired by Zirkle are illegal. These workers know that they are not in any position to demand a fair wage, and as a result, illegally depress the wages of legal farm workers." Berman said. "It is an insidious cycle that exploits the illegal workers and victimizes the legal ones."

According to the lawsuit, Zirkle Fruit Co. conspired with Selective Employment Agency to hire illegal immigrants who would work at below prevailing wage standards at Zirkle's packing house. The company used Selective Employment as a front, buffering it from liability with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the suit claims.

"We believe Zirkle's actions are horridly unfair to the immigrant workers who have taken the legal channels to work here-making sacrifices at every step of the way to create a better life for their families," Berman added.

The suit seeks an end to the practice by Zirkle, and compensation for the class members.

The judge declined to certify similar claims against executives of Matson Fruit Company, a smaller fruit company named in the original complaint.

The U.S. General Accounting Office estimates more than 600,000 farmworkers across the country are employed illegally. About 52,000 workers work illegally in Washington in all types of jobs, according to estimates by the INS.

The court also ordered that class members be notified of the class action by mail and signs in the workplace, an action Berman believes will happen in the coming weeks. As an opt-out lawsuit, those who do not wish to be represented by the class action will receive instructions on removing themselves from the case.


Media Contact:

Mark Firmani
2505 2nd Avenue
Suite 700
Seattle, WA 98121
Phone: 206.443.9357
E-mail: Mark Firmani

Source: http://www.hagens-berman.com/farm_workers.htm

&

Zirkle settles job suit
By LEAH BETH WARD
YAKIMA HERALD-REPUBLIC


William Zirkle has agreed to pay $1.3 million to settle a lawsuit accusing him and two other executives at the Selah-based fruit company of conspiring to hire thousands of illegal immigrants in order to keep wages low.

The executives admitted no wrongdoing in the settlement. The corporation, Zirkle Fruit, was not a defendant.

"Mr. Zirkle knows no one did anything wrong," Ryan Edgley, his lawyer, said Thursday. "Mr. Zirkle primarily wanted to put an end to the uncertainty."

The case was set for trial Jan. 9 before U.S. District Court Judge Fred Van Sickle.

Edgley said the defendants were concerned that even if they prevailed before a jury, the plaintiffs would appeal and the legal defense bills would continue to mount.

"Frankly my client's confidence in the system was shaken in this case," Edgley said.

Had Zirkle lost at trial, he and the other
defendants, Gary Hudson and William Wangler, could have faced triple damages under the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO).

The case obtained class-action status in 2004, which increased the number of legal workers potentially eligible for damages to 20,000,

Chicago lawyer Howard Foster filed the case in 2000 using RICO in a novel way. Although Van Sickle dismissed the case in 2001, Foster won at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in 2002.

Foster could not be reached for comment Thursday. But he told a local radio station that the settlement was unique among the types of immigration cases he has brought.

Foster, who writes occasionally for an anti-immigration Web journal called VDARE.com, is using RICO with mixed results. The U.S. Supreme Court could bring some certainty to the matter next year when it hears a case against Mohawk Industries. The Georgia carpet company is accused of hiring illegal workers and depressing the wages of legal workers.

Edgley said he wanted to go to trial and thinks the settlement will encourage Foster to sue more employers just to get them to settle.

"I was confident we were going to win," he said. "This only emboldens him to continue with what is really just a misuse of the system, in my opinion."

Source: http://www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/329979269647027

RELEASE THE ATTACK LAWYERS!!!

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

I think i have finally found some one i can agree with i have two confederate flags on my truck, and in my room i cant count.


but i think we can say if we do go to war here it wont be like any other we have fought exept the civil war and reveliotionary war. we will have our house's being damaged, our feilds being burned, and our blood on our own soil. plus with the number of illegal alliens that are already here and even legal U.S. citizens whose loyalty still lie with mexico in which some spots out number the rate of other ethnicties we will stand little chance it will be street to street and house to house. it will be up to the gun owners to defend their property and i will defend mine will you?

 

[shecky]

Yup. Until you hit the demand side, you can forget solving the problem. I've long advocated infiltrating the bunches of illegals on the street corners and busting the gringos who scream "DOS DOS" to get some cheap illegal labor for their garden projects. I have some sympathy for the illegal workers, but the folks who hire them like that deserve to have their faces blown off. It's the ultimate in lazy American hypocrisy.

Combine that with a very solid wall and the problem will become much less serious than it currently is. Putting illegals in US prisons will just eat up more US resources. Besides the people who pay the price should be the ones who benefit most from the illegal labor--specifically the agribusiness and employers who rely on illegal labor to keep the profits coming in. Start putting CEO's in prison for hiring illegals and I GUARANTEE it will stop overnight. But since much of the GOP warchest comes from these criminals, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Why would you want to punish the capitalists? They, like the illegal labor pool, are fulfilling a demand. Ultimately, the buck stops with YOU. Are you willing to tax yourself in order to subsidize citizen workers? You can demand that only legally authorized persons be allowed to work, and you'll end up with less and less money in your pocket as a result because workers will have a higher cost of being employed and that cost will be passed on to consumers.

And to solve what problem? The "problem" of illegal immigration is only a problem because the law says it is. Who is the victim?

This sounds a lot like the Wal Mart whiners who are ungrateful for their low priced goods, and can't keep themselves from shopping there.

 

[wingman]

Are you willing to tax yourself in order to subsidize citizen workers?

With all due respect your way off base on this, we now have our taxes used
to subsidize "illegal" workers it varies from state to state but it is estimated
the cost per family between $800-2200 per year.

Very little cost savings is passed on to the consumer of goods produced by illegal workers a large percentage goes into the pockets of the wealthy as does much of the earnings of illegal's who return there money to Mexico.

Please understand illegal labor benefits the wealthy on both sides of the
border it does nothing for average joe taxpayer and in truth is bringing
down the quality of life in America.

 

[Biker]

shecky...

Click on either of the sites in my sig to see what illegal immigration really does cost us. You should check on the impact that illegals have had on California and Arizona then click on your your home state.
You'll find that the cost of cheap labor far outweighs the benefits.
Biker

 

[slzy]

To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

slavery was not my point. i am sure it has been beaten to death in other threads,but, the dred scott decision, the fact that slavery was the only issue in some of the lincoln douglas debates,the fugitive slave law,the 3/5's compromse,that is slaves counting as 3/5s of a person for congessional apportionment,even judah p. benjamin asked why not the furniture and the mules too,foreign recognition denied the confederacy due to the slavery issue, the voter fraud that went along with the lecompton constitution in kansas i am sure there are a lot more i don't know or have forgotten.there were just as many aboltionists in the south as the north,but few people listened to them. i surely don't grant or recognize any moral superiority to the yankees,as they meant only to prevent only the spread of slavery to the territories,and to overturn parts of the dred scott decision.it was only after a long struggle lincoln issued the proclamation,affecting slave only in areas still cosidered in rebellion to sabotage the south. d.h.hill or gen. gordon,i can't remember which and gen. grant both said the war was over slavery,and they were there. there may be other issues that may argue to the contrary,but i can assure myself safely,that had there been no slavery,then the war would not have came. but to my point,as ill formed as it may be,and i ave no problem with the rebel flag myself,is that it does not suggest sovreignity to me,although it might to a black person. when i see a mexican flag flying in an area populated by mexicans,it inclines me to think they have now moved their flag to that point to indicate conquest. you may have seen the films of the laughing german soldiers with the polish border sign they picked up on the way to warsaw.bout the same to me.

 

[CAnnoneer]

The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

+1

It was also about economy and law in the western territories.

The first American JBT statist is ... <drums beat> ... "honest Abe". Btw, he was also of the opinion that blacks should be shipped off back to Africa, as a form of "final solution". Not exactly the kind of image projected by the doctored texts of our leftist PC age.


shecky,

Blaming consumer influence is just lame (and very popular in certain circles). It is aimed at making the average joe taxpayer ashamed of his "evil capitalist" ways and thus totally incapable of defending his interests. There are a number of organizations we can think of that make their money and influence by peddling guilt...

The consumer will always go for the best quality at the lowest price. They aren't breaking any laws by doing so. Businessmen that hire illegals are breaking the law. If we follow your logic, we should excuse burglars, thieves, robbers, and their fencemen because there are people that buy stuff from pawn shops.

 

[longeyes]

And to solve what problem? The "problem" of ilegal immigration is only a problem because the law says it is. Who is the victim?

The Los Angeles Unified School District is spending $15 BILLION to build 150 schools by 2012. Who do you think those schools are for? (One guess.) Who do you think is paying the bill? What do The Rest of Us get back for our taxes? How long are we going to be able to afford our homes?

I can tell you who benefits: Mexico, the pro-immigrant special interest groups, the school system mafia, the construction company "friends."

 

[Camp David]

If we don't build a wall to keep illegal aliens out, this situation will escalate into a shooting match on our southeast border between legal U.S. citizens and suspected illegal aliens/latin citizens. It will become violent. Innocents will die.

Why?

Tensions are escalating now...

The Government IS NOT acting on the border issue... Tacit approval for illegal immigration to happen seems the message of the moment.... Meanwhile legal U.S. citizens are bearing an increased cost as a result of such illegal immigration... more school construction along SW border states... more hospital construction... state and federal spending for illegal immigrants...costs are unbearable now...

Tensions are escalating now...

All it will take will be an illegal alien (or someone who looks like one) to be caught up in a crime and some U.S. citizen (or group or organization) retaliates... thus the shooting match...which could escalate further into National Guard vs. Mexican Army confrontation...

Tensions are escalating now...

This situation cannot be solved by ANYTHING LESS THAN A WALL... To do less means that the border hopping and illegal immigration will continue... sure there are measures less than a wall which might slow the illegal immigration but none that will contain it and stop it as surely.

Tensions are escalating now...

That is why the wall is the only answer on our SW border. A sure sign to Mexico that illegal border hopping will not be tolerated. No more. Why do Third World Nations have barrier walls on their borders yet the United States, the most powerful nation on earth, does not? It is easier to get into the United States on our sourthern border than it is to get into Rodesia...

Tensions are escalating now...

All it will take will be a relatively isolated incident to set off a powder keg of racial fighting and violence; if such happens anyone Latin caught in the middle will be targeted, much like anyone Muslim was targeted after 09/11/01. Innocents will die.

Building a wall takes only the recognition that we have a problem. We do. To do less only prolongs the shooting match that will come inevitably.

When?

 

[ArmedBear]

With all due respect your way off base on this, we now have our taxes used
to subsidize "illegal" workers it varies from state to state but it is estimated
the cost per family between $800-2200 per year.

Very little cost savings is passed on to the consumer of goods produced by illegal workers a large percentage goes into the pockets of the wealthy as does much of the earnings of illegal's who return there money to Mexico.

Please understand illegal labor benefits the wealthy on both sides of the
border it does nothing for average joe taxpayer and in truth is bringing
down the quality of life in America.

He's not off-base at all.

A few of you misunderstood what his point is.

The point is simple: don't give them ANYTHING, and the problem is no longer a problem. And yes, we "tax ourselves" because we don't fight this enough. Well, actually, California voters did pass an initiative for this very purpose, I think, but it was nixed by the courts. See, Californians are not nearly as crazy as California's corrupt, gerrymandered, union stooge state government.

If we don't give them any medical care, we don't school their kids, we conduct regular raids and deport them if they live on land that is not theirs, etc., then the problem is no longer a problem.

Cheap labor is not the problem. It benefits the economy as a whole. The problem is taxing working, middle-income people and using that money to subsidize illegal immigrants whose labor makes others rich. It's a ripoff of the middle class. And whenever the government has the power to tax, this happens. Minimize government power and involvement, take away the tax-funded incentives for illegal immigration, and the problem will be minimized or eliminated.

And for the record, I'm in San Diego, not a thousand or more miles from the problem. And the ripoff of MY money to fund illegals does piss me off. But put the larger part of the blame where it belongs: our government.

 

[longeyes]

All it will take will be an illegal alien (or someone who looks like one) to be caught up in a crime and some U.S. citizen (or group or organization) retaliates... thus the shooting match...which could escalate further into National Guard vs. Mexican Army confrontation...

The only reason this hasn't happened already--because the provocations are already there, in spades--is that MSM, in cahoots with our .gov, is suppressing the social facts, trying to keep the impact of illegal immigration under a blanket of mantras about "they just come here to work."

What you don't hear about is the criminality and the gangs. You don't hear about the three thousand felons who have committed serious violent crimes in the U.S. and escaped back Down South, only to be embraced by a Mexican gov't that won't extradite.

I'm frankly amazed that the shooting hasn't started yet.

 

[ball3006]

As the old saw says......

don't bring a rock to a gunfight.......as far as unskilled/uneducated workers go, the public school system in this country seems to be turning them out in bunches lately........to make this immigration problem go away, or greatly reduce it, is to hammer the people or companies that hire these illegals........back in the 50's, I lived in south Tx and the hispanic US citizens hated the "wetbacks" that came over at that time to cause a reduction in wages by working "cheap".......chris3

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

the shooting match is bound to happen is what i am reading. the only question is when this does start how far will it go? i have seen the mexican military and frankly me and my model 60 could wipe out the whole thing. but if the shoot out begins then there will be innocents who live on the border and will be trapped in the violence i mean what would happen if mexico allied themselves with china, russia, or even north koera i mena we hav to act now to show them that this wont be tolerated.
i hate to see a man die but if a illegal immagrant was shot and killed then so be it cops kill people everyday. the mexicans who cross the border need to realize this. (if you cant do the time, dont break the crime)