Modern Rifle During The Revolutionary War

[SmeeAgain]

This is somewhat crazy but even as a kid, I imagined what it would have been like if just one soldier had a modest .22 lr semi-auto rifle during The Revolutionary War.
The battle tactics of the day, soldiers lining up then taking turns shooting at each other is absolutely asinine!
The outcome was decided before the battle even started by who had the most guys!
Now let's take that one simple, logical step further... imagine the guy with the semi-auto rifle, finding cover while still being able to shoot. With smokeless powder, they wouldn't likely see him and with the relatively quiet report, with all the other noise going on... he could take out hundreds before the opposition even knew he existed.
Of course without a time machine, that would be impossible, but it has crossed my mind many times over the years.

 

[Jim Watson]

See it all worked out in 'Guns of the South' by Harry Turtledove.
Unreconstructed 20th century Southrons time-smuggle AKs to General Lee.

 

[GRIZ22]

Questions like this always remind me of the old Saturday Night Live segment, "What If" hosted by Jane Curtin. My favorite was Kirk Douglas in "What is Spartacus Had a Piper Cub".

 

[Mike OTDP]

The battle tactics of the day, soldiers lining up then taking turns shooting at each other is absolutely asinine!
The outcome was decided before the battle even started by who had the most guys!

Umm...no. For a detailed analysis, I recommend "With Musket, Cannon, and Sword", by Brent Nosworthy.

Short form: Smoothbore muskets were issued with undersized bullets to increase rate of fire. Effective range was about 100 yards, but the killing was done much closer in. At 20-30 yards, a volley could be devastating. Follow it up with a bayonet charge (a trick the British Army learned from the Scots), and you could shatter the cohesion of enemy units.

You kept your units in formation to mass firepower. Single men acting as skirmishers could not deliver enough firepower to stop an attack, much less make one. They could pot officers, though. And remember that you weren't just worried about enemy infantry...cavalry could chop infantry troops into chutney if the foot soldiers were dispersed.

As to numbers...tell it to Napoleon Bonaparte, who made a habit of beating his enemies when on the short end of 3:2 odds. Picking favorable ground helped. Moving faster than the enemy did helped. Holding a central position helped a lot. Try reading David Chandler's "Campaigns of Napoleon".

 

[bannockburn]

SmeeAgain

Actually the British did have something of "modern rifle" during the Revolutionary War with the breechloading Ferguson Rifle. The rifle was designed by Major Patrick Ferguson and patented in England in 1770. Capable of a sustained rate of fire of 6 to 10 rounds per minute (with the Brown Bess the average British soldier could get off 3 to 4 rounds a minute), it was also accurate out to 200 yards.

A couple of things worked against it though. For one thing it was rather expensive to make and was very time consuming as they were practically hand built by several gunsmiths. There was also a problem with the stock breaking in the area around the breech lock. That and the existing military mentality of the day probably thought the Ferguson Rifle would needlessly promote soldiers to waste ammunition with such a high rate of fire!

 

[Slamfire]

I would think that anyone firing a 22 lr rifle at a line of 1780's infantry, would end up with a bayonet in the gut. Or a broadsword through his collar bone.

And, if the 22 lr shooter got hit with a 69 caliber lead ball, that would end the fight.


Round ball vs cut lead - gelatine tests, accuracy, ballistics, historical background




19th century roundball vs 7,62x39 ammo in ballistic gelatine

 

[SmeeAgain]

That's possible too but since this was insane fantasy to begin with, let him trade his Red Ryder BB gun for a 50 cal M60. Then see if the British all of a sudden want to switch sides & become Americans.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Somewhat like the 1980ish movie The Final Countdown.
For those who missed it, the carrier USS Nimitz goes back in time then ends up near Hawaii a day or two prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Not going to ruin it for those who haven't seen it but... while I wasn't impressed with the movie itself, I like the idea of it.

 

[woodnbow]

Those tactics were only asinine from the individual soldiers point of view. From a General Officer’s pov they make the most sense of the available weapons and soldiers. This is as it’s ever been.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

That's possible too but since this was insane fantasy to begin with, let him trade his Red Ryder BB gun for a 50 cal M60. Then see if the British all of a sudden want to switch sides & become Americans.

A 50 cal M60.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Somewhat like the 1980ish movie The Final Countdown.
For those who missed it, the carrier USS Nimitz goes back in time then ends up near Hawaii a day or two prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Not going to ruin it for those who haven't seen it but... while I wasn't impressed with the movie itself, I like the idea of it.

The ending was terrible, but ya, fun to think about.
Unfortunately, I think spears vs AKs is probably in our future, not in our past.

 

[SmeeAgain]

The ending was terrible, but ya, fun to think about.
Unfortunately, I think spears vs AKs is probably in our future, not in our past.

I don't often speak of movie details. When the movie Titanic came out my sister-in-law saw it first and mentioned something to my wife about the ship sinking.
All I heard my wife say was... "The ship sank? Oh you ruined it for me!"
She claimed she was joking but I have my doubts.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

A 50 cal M60.

Same thought I had, but even one guy with a Browning M2 wasn't going to defeat the British unless it was in a video game.

 

[GEM]

Islands in the Sea of Time trilogy by Stirling. Modern Nantucket in the Bronze Age. Lots of gun options.

 

[WestKentucky]

Same thought I had, but even one guy with a Browning M2 wasn't going to defeat the British unless it was in a video game.

Physical and actual damage would be minimal. Mental and moral damage to the enemy would be huge. In a realistic comparison, best case scenario for the 22/m60/m2/saw/mini gun shooter would be a dedicated hardened bunker from an elevated position where significant cover was available. We have seen that scenario played out on the beaches of Normandy. I suspect results would be similar. Massive damage until flanked and over-run.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Physical and actual damage would be minimal. Mental and moral damage to the enemy would be huge. In a realistic comparison, best case scenario for the 22/m60/m2/saw/mini gun shooter would be a dedicated hardened bunker from an elevated position where significant cover was available. We have seen that scenario played out on the beaches of Normandy. I suspect results would be similar. Massive damage until flanked and over-run.

I don't know why we are "pf-ing" around with this, just send in a Cobra helicopter & be done with it. By brunch everyone could be on their way home.
Or... just drop a nuke! Oh wait... we didn't have the B52 back then.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Physical and actual damage would be minimal. Mental and moral damage to the enemy would be huge. In a realistic comparison, best case scenario for the 22/m60/m2/saw/mini gun shooter would be a dedicated hardened bunker from an elevated position where significant cover was available. We have seen that scenario played out on the beaches of Normandy. I suspect results would be similar. Massive damage until flanked and over-run.

Physical & actual damage minimal? Uhhh no. Every man hit with a simple .22lr would be done for the day.
What started this thought was a tube fed semi-auto that held 17-18 rounds and was reasonably quick to reload.
Granted once the enemy figured it out & where the shooter was, his time would be extremely limited, but until then, he could rack up a huge number of casualties.
It would be interesting to see an unbiased computer simulation. I'll bet someone here is up to the task.
Now here's an interesting thought... "military intelligence" (not iq lol) is at an all time high today. Prior to engaging in a battle, wouldn't it be possible to load all the known parameters into a computer, then run a variety of simulations to determine the best course of action?
One such action might be... stay home. But at least you have an idea what to expect.
We have had the technology for decades... I wonder if it's been tried. If not, why?

 

[Miguel Loco]

Just send a couple A-10's and be done with it....lol.

 

[SmeeAgain]

A couple?

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

...
It would be interesting to see an unbiased computer simulation. I'll bet someone here is up to the task.
Now here's an interesting thought... "military intelligence" (not iq lol) is at an all time high today. Prior to engaging in a battle, wouldn't it be possible to load all the known parameters into a computer, then run a variety of simulations to determine the best course of action?
One such action might be... stay home. But at least you have an idea what to expect.
We have had the technology for decades... I wonder if it's been tried. If not, why?

Real war is not a video game
But yes, computers are used to run simulations for all sorts of things. Including military applications.

Probably time to bring the conversation on topic to Black Powder or move the thread.

 

[WestKentucky]

Physical & actual damage minimal? Uhhh no. Every man hit with a simple .22lr would be done for the day.
What started this thought was a tube fed semi-auto that held 17-18 rounds and was reasonably quick to reload.
Granted once the enemy figured it out & where the shooter was, his time would be extremely limited, but until then, he could rack up a huge number of casualties.
It would be interesting to see an unbiased computer simulation. I'll bet someone here is up to the task.
Now here's an interesting thought... "military intelligence" (not iq lol) is at an all time high today. Prior to engaging in a battle, wouldn't it be possible to load all the known parameters into a computer, then run a variety of simulations to determine the best course of action?
One such action might be... stay home. But at least you have an idea what to expect.
We have had the technology for decades... I wonder if it's been tried. If not, why?

For a random Tuesday evening battle yeah it would be notable, but in the grand scheme of things it would be a drop in the bucket. How many men died on the beaches on DDay? Divide that by the number of machine guns firing from the bunkers. Clause D Kraut was important at THAT bunker on THAT day, but he wasn’t notable in the war. Same thing for Jimmy hiding behind the woodpile in Lexington. Now, the interesting question at this point is what happens to the 10/22 when the woodpile gets overrun. If the redcoats get the gun and the ammo (highly likely) what do they do with it.

 

[SmeeAgain]

For a random Tuesday evening battle yeah it would be notable, but in the grand scheme of things it would be a drop in the bucket. How many men died on the beaches on DDay? Divide that by the number of machine guns firing from the bunkers. Clause D Kraut was important at THAT bunker on THAT day, but he wasn’t notable in the war. Same thing for Jimmy hiding behind the woodpile in Lexington. Now, the interesting question at this point is what happens to the 10/22 when the woodpile gets overrun. If the redcoats get the gun and the ammo (highly likely) what do they do with it.

It wasn't "Jimmy. It was... "Billy Joe Jim Bob"... he was from the South.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Real war is not a video game
But yes, computers are used to run simulations for all sorts of things. Including military applications.

Probably time to bring the conversation on topic to Black Powder or move the thread.

Yeah, it's pretty much run it's course & now getting ridiculous. Once I went with helicopters & nukes it was time to quit.

 

[Slamfire]

Yeah, it's pretty much run it's course & now getting ridiculous. Once I went with helicopters & nukes it was time to quit.

Let everyone watch the movie "Battleship", where Aliens land, and we are the "Indians". It was fun sci fy fantasy, and because no one wants to go the movie and see their side lose, of course clever Americans beat the Aliens and their advanced technology.

However history has repeated in this way: whenever a technologically superior human society encounters a technologically inferior society, the superior group annihilates the lesser group. It has happened before, and will happen again.

 

[SmeeAgain]

Let everyone watch the movie "Battleship", where Aliens land, and we are the "Indians". It was fun sci fy fantasy, and because no one wants to go the movie and see their side lose, of course clever Americans beat the Aliens and their advanced technology.

However history has repeated in this way: whenever a technologically superior human society encounters a technologically inferior society, the superior group annihilates the lesser group. It has happened before, and will happen again.

The same scenario but back in the Roman Empire or ancient Greece. One guy with a matchlock BP rifle.