KiltedClaymore
Member
yup thats me
Mosin-Nagant as a defense rifle
- Thread starter TimboKhan
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wcwhitey
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Kitty, with your hallway for a shooting lane one shot is good for at least 2-3 bg's if they are stacked in a row. This post got a little carried away, pot shots from Afgan rebels at distance is not HD as I took it. I stated in my reply that a MN would be a good cabin gun, capable of taking down the biggest game, wild dog, coyote or bad intentioned human that wandered onto the property. But indoors is out of the question. 
The little fire guy is what a shooters face would look like as the first shot is going off. Bill
The little fire guy is what a shooters face would look like as the first shot is going off. Bill Funderb
Member
Screw all of it.
My dad says, and I'm starting to agree,
the handgrenade is a wonderweapon. give me
a cratefull and home defense is no problem!
: P
My dad says, and I'm starting to agree,
the handgrenade is a wonderweapon. give me
a cratefull and home defense is no problem!
: P
KiltedClaymore
Member
1) who you callin' kitty mate? its KILT!!!!!
2) the hall example is just that, an example
3)the afgahn thing was in response to someone saying that mosins had no place on the modern battlefield.
2) the hall example is just that, an example
3)the afgahn thing was in response to someone saying that mosins had no place on the modern battlefield.
Cosmoline
Member
You're getting hung up on rate of fire. The autoloaders are permutations of the same smokeless technology that the Mosin uses. Other than the ability to keep an enemy pinned down with fewer troops, they really don't have that much of an advantage over older smokeless repeaters. And they have their own set of drawbacks. The brown bess uses black powder without a cartridge and is in a different class of firearms. It doesn't even use a modern bullet, and has only a fraction the effective range of a Mosin.
I may have to fire twice.
Cosmoline
Member
Inside of 50 yards against any of the old war rifles you're toast. Do we need to go back over the tragic consequences whenever trained LEO's have tried to charge in against a full powered bolt action rifle? They get slaughtered. From the James Cantwell shootout on down. If your plan is to try to grab the barrel, I'd suggest another plan! That's like jumping down a shark's gullet in hopes of choking him to death.
Clearly, there are circumstances where an AR is going to have an edge. Multiple determined attackers is one. Laying down suppressive fire is another. But there are also circumstances where a SP round from a Mosin is going to stop the attack faster than the .223. And there are circumstances where the AR will jam but the Mosin won't.
I don't suggest trying this at home, but with an unloaded Mosin (or Mauser, SMLE or similar war rifle) someone grabbing the barrel when the other fellow has the rifle up and ready is going to find themselves with a broken jaw and probably wrist in the space of a few seconds. They'll also be on the floor. That's WITHOUT a bayonet on it. The holder of the rifle has much better leverage and is using their main torso muscles, which are about twenty times stronger than your wrist is esp. when the wrist is out at the end of the barrel. The rifle is the hammer, your arm is the nail. Ouch! Now no doubt there is some ninja who can duck in fast under the gun and slice the rifle shooter in half, and the guy with the rifle only realizes it a minute later when he pulls a funny face falls in two pieces. I know that because I've seen it in the movies. But I'll take my chances. And when I hear the sounds of trouble I'll still grab the big Mosin over most other firearms.
KiltedClaymore
Member
its cool, that wasnt even a poof! i cant get "really" fired up or i would get banned...
Sounds like some of you need to get away from the paper and benches and try actually shooting.
Hitting two man-sized targets in a half-second at point blank range is easier to do than what skeet shooters, 3-gunners, steel plate shooters, CAS competitors, and upland hunters do on weekends for kicks. To suggest that it's not possible is just plain silly. It's not only possible, it's not even hard to do. But NOT with a Mosin!
No, I'm not "hung up" on rate of fire. Sounds like you're "hung up" on smokeless powder. Ever shoot BP cartridge? Not much difference, just more smoke.
If an AR is just an iteration of the same technology as a Mosin, the Mosin is just an iteration of the same technology as a Brown Bess: explosive chemicals propelling lead down a barrel.
Hitting two man-sized targets in a half-second at point blank range is easier to do than what skeet shooters, 3-gunners, steel plate shooters, CAS competitors, and upland hunters do on weekends for kicks. To suggest that it's not possible is just plain silly. It's not only possible, it's not even hard to do. But NOT with a Mosin!
No, I'm not "hung up" on rate of fire. Sounds like you're "hung up" on smokeless powder. Ever shoot BP cartridge? Not much difference, just more smoke.
If an AR is just an iteration of the same technology as a Mosin, the Mosin is just an iteration of the same technology as a Brown Bess: explosive chemicals propelling lead down a barrel.
KiltedClaymore
Member
thats why in CQB the mosin also has three extra weapons called bayonet, steel buttplate, and the ensuing firestorm of cussing and blind flailing following the first shot
Cosmoline
Member
I know my own real life success rate hitting living things with a short gun. So I'll stick with the rifle. Stationary targets are NOT the same thing. I've had the humliation of grouse and squirrel staring at me in bemused silence (or chittering at me in the sqirrel's case) as revolver rounds smacked around them, and they weren't even moving much, let alone returning fire! Anytime the blood is pumping and lives are on the line--even that of a silly flying hamburger--accuracy goes down. At least for me. So I figure I'll start out if possible with the accurate and powerful platform I'm most confident with. Maybe the SKS would be better but it's locked away and there's no easy way to disable it as there is with the Mosin.
All modern firearms are hung up on smokeless powder. It's the central fact of life. So far nobody has come up with a better substitute, at least at prices we can afford. And yes there is a great deal of difference between black and smokeless. In both chemical and practical terms. Not too many muskets can throw an expanding bullet at 2,500 to 3,000 fps. And I don't know many redcoats who racked up 500 confirmed kills during the Revolution.
Apart from rate of fire, what is it you think the AR can do that the Mosin can't?
All modern firearms are hung up on smokeless powder. It's the central fact of life. So far nobody has come up with a better substitute, at least at prices we can afford. And yes there is a great deal of difference between black and smokeless. In both chemical and practical terms. Not too many muskets can throw an expanding bullet at 2,500 to 3,000 fps. And I don't know many redcoats who racked up 500 confirmed kills during the Revolution.
Apart from rate of fire, what is it you think the AR can do that the Mosin can't?
KiltedClaymore
Member
the mosin can blow a BG away WITHOUT touching him. the AR is a glorified
.22
.22
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
You honestly believe that?
Acheron
Member
There really isn't anything (other than rate of fire) that an AR/AK/G3/FAL can do that a Mosin can't. Other than cost a lot more .
I'm with ya on this one Cosmoline; when I hear those bad noises outside I'm grabbing the Mosin. Long live 7.62x54R!
.I'm with ya on this one Cosmoline; when I hear those bad noises outside I'm grabbing the Mosin. Long live 7.62x54R!
Jorg Nysgerrig
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And this, boys and girls, is why you don't make decisions regarding firearms based on the vast knowledge and experience of 16-year old weapons experts on the interweb.
KiltedClaymore
Member
Huzzah!
Cosmoline, if I'm facing two home invaders, which is not an unlikely scenario, rate of fire is not trivial. It's simply stupid to suggest that it is.
You keep repeating what a single bullet can do. Duh. No ****.
A .45-70 at reasonable ranges is at least as deadly, though. For the purpose here, smokeless offers no advantage.
The point is that having more than one round at one's immediate disposal matters. You may think it doesn't. But it does. A lot.
Does that mean I will invite multiple armed burglars into my home? Of course not. I don't want to face one armed man, to say nothing of two, in my home if I can help it. But rate of fire sure as hell matters if you need it, and the situation where it matters most is defense.
You keep repeating what a single bullet can do. Duh. No ****.
A .45-70 at reasonable ranges is at least as deadly, though. For the purpose here, smokeless offers no advantage.
The point is that having more than one round at one's immediate disposal matters. You may think it doesn't. But it does. A lot.
Does that mean I will invite multiple armed burglars into my home? Of course not. I don't want to face one armed man, to say nothing of two, in my home if I can help it. But rate of fire sure as hell matters if you need it, and the situation where it matters most is defense.
KiltedClaymore
Member
jorg, you take my comments way too seriously. getting shot with ANY gun sucks. end of story. im just of the oppinion that the bigger the better.
Cosmoline
Member
I wouldn't say it's trivial, but in real life the difference in my followup speed with the SKS vs. the Mosin is pretty much trivial. The real delays are going to come in aiming and assessing threat. Plus I know the M91 will be hitting about twice as hard with each impact. Six of one half a dozen of the other. There's no way to guarantee an outcome and any increase in rate of fire represents a tradeoff in power.
Not if we're limited to black powder power levels. Smokeless rounds can go far faster and hit a lot harder. Properly designed, they destroy more tissue which means you can stop an assailant faster.
I have several more rounds in the magazine, as the Mosin is a repeater. The difference is relying on an automated system to cycle vs. cycling it yourself with the bolt. There are trade offs each way.
OP
OP
TimboKhan
Member
HAHA!! You just acknowledged that it would be possible! I win this round!
Seriously though, I'm not arguing against the AR. I am literally sitting 2 feet away from mine as I type this. My Mosin is in the closet, although I must admit that I have taken it out and walked through my house testing how difficult it would be manuever as compared to my AR. As it turns out, the difference is pretty minor. Anyway, my whole point here is that M/N HD possible, and even you have to admit that it is. Again, the key here isn't that it is the best option, simply that it is a viable one.
yesit'sloaded
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I still wonder how much the shock and awe of watching your criminal buddy's head explode while the roar and fireball engulfs you would take the fight right out of you.
LET'S GO OVER THIS AGAIN...
Your M-44 can be loaded and set aside and will fire when the trigger is pulled for probably the next century. It is like a large and powerful revolver, without the revolver part, but it can be kept loaded for a long time.
99.5% of the time, out of the 2.5 million DGU's in the United States, there is no injury and no weapons fire. The criminals see the gun and flee. Any gun will work in this instance and the more threatening the better.
In the case of 2 BG"s, the effect upon the one not shot, especially a carbine such as the M-44 and the popular short range 7.62 x 54R round would be at least equivalent to a flash grenade. In addition, the neighbors WILL hear the shot and will call the police. The surviving BG will be dioriented and perhaps will believe that he was hit as well.
It's not much slower, if at all, than a pump shotgun. It will fill most Hd situations more than adequately. It can be brought into action as quickly as anything else, is always ready for use, and it is inexpensive enough for anyone to be able to afford one. What more do you need?
Your M-44 can be loaded and set aside and will fire when the trigger is pulled for probably the next century. It is like a large and powerful revolver, without the revolver part, but it can be kept loaded for a long time.
99.5% of the time, out of the 2.5 million DGU's in the United States, there is no injury and no weapons fire. The criminals see the gun and flee. Any gun will work in this instance and the more threatening the better.
In the case of 2 BG"s, the effect upon the one not shot, especially a carbine such as the M-44 and the popular short range 7.62 x 54R round would be at least equivalent to a flash grenade. In addition, the neighbors WILL hear the shot and will call the police. The surviving BG will be dioriented and perhaps will believe that he was hit as well.
It's not much slower, if at all, than a pump shotgun. It will fill most Hd situations more than adequately. It can be brought into action as quickly as anything else, is always ready for use, and it is inexpensive enough for anyone to be able to afford one. What more do you need?
jpwilly
Member
While your dancing around with your Mosin the BG's are kicking your arse for making their ears ring and ruining their night vision. The music is "read these nikes" and you're on the carpet trying not to get kicked in the head as some punk takes your pig sticker from your "cold dead hands".
My AK (or AR) for that matter will be reading them poetry something like
blam blam blam (repeat that 27 more times)
to the tune of "bodies hit the floor" my BUG is a 1911...the mop is in the closet.
Muzzle blast and noise are about as effective as a smelly fart - most people can take it if they have to!
07Lway
Member
I would grab it before a knife, stick, or club...
Seeing as how it already has all of that stuff as well as being able to shoot the bad guys.
I don't really love this for home defense, but I think it is an undervalued field gun. It is a little heavy, but it is nice to walk through some rough terrain without having to worry about scratching it up or damage it by dropping it.
Seeing as how it already has all of that stuff as well as being able to shoot the bad guys.
I don't really love this for home defense, but I think it is an undervalued field gun. It is a little heavy, but it is nice to walk through some rough terrain without having to worry about scratching it up or damage it by dropping it.
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