My complaint against milsurp rifles

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I look at firearms as an investment vehicle and an insurance policy. In both instances a milsurp in good condition for a good price provides a solid investment with enough toughness to bail your behind out in a bad situation. Something that holds its value while providing reliable, potentially vital, service!

They're designed to provide reliable, leathal power that can be dragged through the mud and used as a club if necessary, as others have noted. A little more performance in accuracy at the cost of real durability (which means ALL your reliability could desert you in the most important instant) and a lot more $ is not a trade-off in my opinion. If your life depends on making long shots on skittish game, then I can see why the tradeoff the other way wouldn't make any sense.

That said, accurate longrange hunting rifles don't cost much these days; I'm paying for reliability, durability, capacity, and speed of reload. As others have noted, guns are just tools and it's all about what you need and expect any tool to do for you.
 
milsurp?

The Many Moose My #4mk2 has taken up here in Canada... Some Out At 200-250 Yrds. With Battle Sights, You Don't Hear Them Complaining about milsurp and accuracy do ya?
 
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What I'm reading sounds like a bunch of SPOILED kids who wouldn't know a REAL rifle if they were shot with it. It is true that many mil-surp's wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, that is unless someone who actually knows what they're doing is shooting it. However most will do better than the OP's afore mentioned " 4" groups at 50 yds " with almost anyone shooting.

I believe that the real problem is that the young people today associate mil-surp weapons with the military (and rightly so), and since they were brought up not respecting the military (or much of anything else for that matter), they find fault with the very things that made us (and them) free to even own guns. I dare you to tell a WWII soldier that his Garand could'nt hit a 4" target at 100yds, or a doughboy that his 1903 Springfield was a piece of inaccurate crap. Or a Jap that his 7.7mm Type 99 Arisaka was junk. Or how about a Wermacht trooper that his K98k Mauser was only good for a paperweight.
I tell you what, go stand 300 yds down range, and lets see how inaccurate my Yugo M48 Mauser is.


Don
 
Don357 said:
What I'm reading sounds like a bunch of SPOILED kids who wouldn't know a REAL rifle if they were shot with it. It is true that many mil-surp's wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, that is unless someone who actually knows what they're doing is shooting it. However most will do better than the OP's afore mentioned " 4" groups at 50 yds " with almost anyone shooting.

I believe that the real problem is that the young people today associate mil-surp weapons with the military (and rightly so), and since they were brought up not respecting the military (or much of anything else for that matter), they find fault with the very things that made us (and them) free to even own guns. I dare you to tell a WWII soldier that his Garand could'nt hit a 4" target at 100yds, or a doughboy that his 1903 Springfield was a piece of inaccurate crap. Or a Jap that his 7.7mm Type 99 Arisaka was junk. Or how about a Wermacht trooper that his K98k Mauser was only good for a paperweight.
I tell you what, go stand 300 yds down range, and lets see how inaccurate my Yugo M48 Mauser is.


Don
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What a load of opininated bs. The only demograpic or age group that remotely fits what you describe are much more likely to be called babyboomers than kids. You know the generation that 40 yrs ago actually did set out to do what you describe above. The very same folks running the show today. Oh but Lordy they love to point the fingers at everyone but themselves. I seem to remember somithing some charicter once said about those without sin being the first to cast stones? You know anything bout that revrend?
 
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I'll second the guys saying its not about how well they shoot. Although its a nice bonus when you get a good shooter. For me it is primarily about the history. I may not be able to afford a museum quality gun, but I find it facinating to think about where some of those guns have been.
 
Yeah the history and the character of the guns is a big part, but if you just take your time, become familiar with the rifle your going to buy, and pick and choose to find a good one you can have the best of both worlds. You can have the old world looks and feel with precision shooting to boot. I'd rather put the effort in to get a good milsurp than save myself the trouble and buy a Remchester from Walmart.
 
Well,40 years ago I was probably on my 2nd or 3rd mil-surp. All Latin contract Mausers. They were all shot iron sight and were accurate enough for hunting(if you could hit a soup can at 80-100 yards,you were good to go). Bought my first commercial deer rifle in 1972,a Remington 700ADL in 30.06. Except for looks and being a little lighter weight it didn't have much on the old Mausers. So, yeah I guess I have a little more appreciation for the old wardogs than some of the "youngsters". BTW, the mil-surps of today are the same guns we shot 40 years ago and, they like us, are 40 years older and showing their age too.
 
I just lovwe the folks who act as though firearms fall into two categories, Milsurps and walmart sale rack guns.

If those were my only choices Id simply spend all my $$$ on my Jeep

BTW many of your beloved historic pieces have a history consisting of little more than being made by forced-slave labor and then spending 60yrds forgotten in a warehouse. Not every milsurp saw action in Stalingrad, Bastonge or Ypres
 
FWIW. there was no Wal-Mart and K-Mark was just starting. I bought my (new)guns at either Western Auto or Ace Hardware. I prefer to build my own hunting rifles from non collectable Mauser 98s.
 
Misurps used to be so dirt cheap even I, the practical guy, couldn't resist a few. No, they're not very useful as hunting weapons. Oh, you CAN hunt with one, but a Mosin Nagant will NEVER equal even a Savage, let alone something like a Browning A bolt or Weatherby Mk V or such commercial rifles for sport shooting and hunting.

I never really got into buying a lot of milsurps 'cause I sorta realized this. The ones I have, I kept. The ones I have I bought dirt cheap, like an 80 dollar Hakim in VG condition or my 2 Norinco SKSs, a paratrooper for 115 and a rifle for 75 bucks or a 1888 commission rifle converted to 8x57S for $27.50. They're fun, they shoot, and are worth what I gave for 'em. Actually, now, they're worth quite a bit more than I gave for 'em.
 
BTW many of your beloved historic pieces have a history consisting of little more than being made by forced-slave labor and then spending 60yrds forgotten in a warehouse. Not every milsurp saw action in Stalingrad, Bastonge or Ypres
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any many of them were made by master craftsmen to such fine standards that they would be prohibitively expensive to make today. Alot of those rifle also never saw service, some of them also look as though they have rarely been shot. I have many mausers in mint condition, and can tell you that a contract latin american mauser or a swede is equal to anything made today in the same configuration. feeding a rifle 60-80 year old ammunition is also not going to get you the best results, so lets not **** on all milsurp, if they were not capable of shooting accurately past a couple hundred yards, then I kind of doubt every single military would have sites ranging to 400 yards+ or in some cases 1500+.

Again, if your only shooting to 50 yards and your sight is set to 100 or 200 meters then of course its not going to shoot point of aim. It was not until Korea that the US army actual conducted a study to find out what the most common combat distances where. Prior to Korea, the legendary marksmanship of Sgt. York and the marines still prompted an attitude of precision fire, and if their rifles were not up to the task then you would think we would have heard about it...from the millions of vets. Strange how bitchy Vietnam vets can be about the M16, but I don't hear many vets crying about their crappy mauser or garand.
 
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I own 4 mausers and two mosin nagants and apart from a little tinkerin' that I've done they are some of the most accurate (usein' iron sights only) rifles I've ever fired. Alot of it has to do with how well preserved the weapon is and what ammo you are usein'.
 
to those who dont " get " milsurps , that's fine , leave them and the ammo for the rest of us , no sense complaining about what you don't get.

I don't get why someone will spend $800+ in upgrades to a 10/22 , but if they want to that is their business , their cash , but it aint for me to complain about...

As for me , you can find me , in the dirt , hammering the 400 yard steel with a Mauser or Enfield..... recoil pad not needed :)
 
I like that ol' Hakim. It's weird. Your average Joe can't even figure out the action, let alone shoot it. LOL The thing is impressive, about 20 feet long, 25 with the bayonet on it. It weighs about what my Honda goldwing weighs. It's got an effective muzzle brake on it to boot, so recoil with 8x57 mauser is nil. It has a 10 round box mag. You can dump that mag fast as you can pull the trigger. Let me tell ya, that wakes the shooting line up! LOL They all come over wanting to know "What the hell IS that thing?" LOL It was worth the 80 bucks just for that.

Actually, the thing reminds me a little of a BAR, semi auto of course. One amazing thing, that old gun is a shooter! It's more accurate than your average SKS by a ways, ain't sayin' much, but I can shoot 2" at 100 yards with it using the irons and reloads. 8x57 milsurp ammo varies wildly and you need to avoid the Turkish stuff with it or turn down the gas valve if you use it.

As to history, the Hakim came from Israeli arsenals, 67 war pick ups, fired once, dropped in the sand. LOL
 
Years ago a Birmingham gun shop had crates of Hakims for $79 each, IIRC. I didn't like the looks of them even though I wanted a 8x57 semi-auto. I didn't buy one and am still kicking myself.
 
The only milsurp I have is an M44. The factor that swayed me most was that they are still making the 7.62x54R ammo for sniper rifles and MGs that are used all over the world, as opposed to 8mm mauser, etc. No worries re. ammo shortages.

That said, there is no way I would want to have to defend myself with any bolt action gun in this day and age.

Why was the pump shotgun so feared in the trenches? Because that was in the day of the bolt action rifle. Compare the firing rate and ergos (for most) of a pump shotgun to a bolt action rifle and the winner in a CQB situation is clear.

Anyhow, this is the age of the semi-auto and full-auto. I bought my milsurp because I liked it, not because I ever envisioned using it any serious situation.

Had that been a consideration, I wouldn't have purchased ANY bolt action rifle, including a mauser or enfield or remington or ruger.

Like I have said before, the only way I would grab the mosin in a SD situation would be if I was attacked going to or from the range and it was the only gun I had.

Flip side, it is a powerful rifle that is reliable, robust and accurate to 100 yards that I can afford to shoot. Got it for 120 bucks.
 
They're history and were well suited to their intended purpose. Every design has its limitations and someone with a little design and manufacturing knowledge can understand that. You shouldn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and then blame it on someone else. I have very few milsurps, appreciate them but am tending toward the older FN-based Husqvarnas for their quality. You can make a fine hunting rfile starting with a quality military mauser action.
 
I can't say the same about the OP, but I love the smell of cosmoline in the morning :D .

If you want to turn a mil-surp into a tack-driving machine, be prepared to sink some money into them. It has been done. If you want cheap ammo, your restricted to a Mosin-Nagant usually because .303 British and 7.92x57 Mauser are hard to find, being that each has been out of use for decades. If your shooting a Mauser your probably reloading for it, and Lee-Enfields do have some manufacturers cranking out rounds, but not many.

I remember hating my first mil-surp Mosin-Nagant. I thought it was a piece of crap. Then I realized that so is my grand-dads 1939 Ford. But like the Ford, the Mosin-Nagant was over (then) sixty years old! Now it's been seventy years since they made 91/30's. If I want a tack-driver Mosin-Nagant, I'd better be prepared to sink cash into it. Instead I rebuilt a bubba'd Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk III*. Rebuilt being used loosely (new wood and front sight, welded up the rear sight), it will only do 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. But you know what? If I was going to punch .5 inch holes at 100 yards I'd have spent the extra money and bought a heavy-barreled Remington 700 in .308. But who wants to spend nearly a thousand dollars to shoot targets at the range?
 
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2. For the money, they are inaccurate
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Huh?!? So when you buy a rifle for somewhere between $80 and $150 you feel you arent getting enough bang for your buck? Are you spoiled by the $50 sub MOA 700 floating around everywhere?

Ive got 4 milsurps a 91/30, a wonderful IAC Enfield no4mk1, a beat to hell Ishy and a no4mk1/2 that someone bubba-ed that someday im gonna return it back to the way it was. The IAC and 91/30 are very very accurate,and the others are ok, but honestly its foolhardy to ask a gun that was more than likely used to pound nails and stir stew 60+ years ago to shoot sub-moa.
 
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