My complaint against milsurp rifles

[Ignition Override]

Excellent topic.
Being the new guy at all of this, would like to "second" the views of NCsmitty and JTW ("fancy do dads, hickey ma doos..."), among others.
My heros in WW2 etc had none of this fancy stuff, and could often hit an enemy with a rifle (even a carbine) at 100 yards, sometimes further, and stop them.

Other than my only milsurps being an inaccurate MN 44 and much better LE #4 and 5, though accuracy is not the point, a GI-vintage M-1 Garand would be really attractive.
Having taken that excellent private (and low-cost) tour of various skirmish areas back in May around Bastogne, Belgium, hearing the actual details and squatting in the 101st (E and F Companies) Airborne's fox holes, the Garand would be to honour our heros, but the ammo costs too much for plinking. The Russian Wolf/Bear/Monarch complex does not produce any 30-06.

ArmedBear:
If you or anybody else can bring any good LE #4 (even surplus .303) or a MN 44 with very nice bore, through/near Memphis in the future, please send me a pm with about six weeks notice, to work out the day off. Will try to work out a deal behind a McDonalds etc (as was done for my SKS: still hardly a scratch after 1,500 rds.).

 

[jimmyraythomason]

"I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686." I told this in post #111. 38 Special,this is an absolute FACT. The Remmy was brand new and the Gew 98 was over 100 years old at the time of the comparison. The Gew shot consistant 2'' 5shot groups while 3''-4'' groups was the BEST the 700 could do from a rest. I have never had 1'' MOA with a mil-surp but I have come close. As to mil-surps being superior in quality to new production guns,I can only say that in SOME cases that could be true but isn't the norm and I really don't remember anyone saying that. I know I didn't.

 

[cornman]

One could say classic cars are no good because they do not have dual zone A/C, MP3 ports, and power windows. But this would not make them junk.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

^^^all that stuff can be put on classic cars. They would not cease to be classics but a collector would have less interest in them. Now you've made me miss my old 1969 Mustang Mach 1 Cobra Jet and my 1968 Mercury Cougar,and my 1969 Dodge Coronet 500 w/383 hP .

 

[jd46561]

Id take my STG-58 over your Rigby anyday...

 

[jimmyraythomason]

jd46561,so would I but then I build my own Mauser sporters. I wouldn't turn down a Rigby in .275 rigby either.

 

[DHJenkins]

You need to buy what's best suited to your use. Some people collect, other people shoot alot or use their weapons for hunting, competitions, etc...

Look at it this way - the weekend shadetree mechanic can probably get done what he needs to get done with this 73 piece socket set from sears, which costs $100:



On the other hand, a working professional mechanic will spend that $100 (actually, $92) on this single ratchet from snap-on:

If you want quality, buy quality. If you want quantity, buy quantity; just remember - you get what you pay for.

It sounds to me like the OP just made a lot of impulse purchases because the price was right, not because it's what he really wanted. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Don't get me wrong, there are always exeptions; but they're called exceptions because they don't happen very often. I like all types of guns, from black powder to the latest whiz-bang; but I also know what to expect form those guns in terms of performance.

 

[jd46561]

Im just funnin, you all buy what you want.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Nice mil-surp, jd46561.

 

[mp5a3]

No doubt, that thing looks MEAN !!!

 

[gun addict]

my firearm collection is composed of ALL MILSUPS. I can get 1 MOA at 100 yard with a 70 year old YC K98k mauser using 40s ammunition. MY Swiss K31, feeding GP11 ammo with a vintage Redfield scope attached to it can shoot 1 MOA all day long. If you're shooting 4 MOA at 50 yard with a K31 50cal then you obviously need practice.

oh, and i also bought 1500 rounds of 8x57 ammo last week for $135, keep your eyes open, milsup ammunitinos can still be had for cheap

 

[Tamlin]

I got a Swedish mauser carbine because (1) it was relatively cheap; and (2) I like old guns. It shoots great. Took it hunting once, but it only has iron sights. I refuse to drill and tap it for a scope. This rifle has introduced me to the 6.5x55 caliber, and so when I am ready to get a serious scoped hunting rifle, I will likely get a nice new rifle in this caliber. Will always keep the Swede, though.

 

[gun addict]

seems to me like alot of people on here thinks accuracy in terms of "can i put a huge scope on it?". And you know what? If this man here can engage a small steel plate at 1000 yards with a K31 OPEN SIGHT there's absolutely no reason you should be shooting 4 groups at 50 yards.

oh and here's a "junky inaccurate slave labor made crappy ol mauser" shooting at 900 yards, yeah i rest my case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8B4Me5HXNo&feature=related

 

[jd46561]

Thanks.

Swede's are nice, I wont part with mine either.

 

[shephard19]

My experience has been that milsurp owners/collectors are usually "financially challenged" and, in their heart-of-hearts, would really rather have a Weatherby. (Or whatever.) That explains not only the extravagant lies (MOA with irons and surplus ammo, from a 100 year old rifle made by peasants) but also the misplaced populism -- "You rich boys with your fancy factory rifles just don't understand!"

As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.

That has to be one of the snobbiest posts I have ever read, so what if mil surplus guys have less money, at least they have class in more ways than one.

 

[.38 Special]

And we're right back to antique milsurp rifles made in third world countries shooting MOA with antique milsurp ammo -- also made in third world countries -- while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA.

Only on the internet, folks!

 

[Deckard]

I got a Swedish mauser carbine because (1) it was relatively cheap; and (2) I like old guns.

I've been keeping my eyes out for one of those, but they're pretty scarce nowadays. You can find the full length ones pretty easily still.

 

[.38 Special]

That has to be one of the snobbiest posts I have ever read, so what if mil surplus guys have less money, at least they have class in more ways than one.

Don't jerk that knee too hard, mate, you night hurt someone.

Seems to me a lot of folks are reading between the lines and coming up with whatever they wanted to. FWIW, I spent many years renting a room in a bad neighborhood, one step away from living on the street. Those were times I couldn't even afford to shoot the few guns I had, let alone consider buying new ones -- even new old ones. So I'm not attacking people for not being rich.

I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo, and for claiming that those same guns are better than anything coming out of today's factories, and most especially for going after the OP for pointing out that he wishes he'd spent his money on a few high quality guns instead of a garage full of low quality ones.

You all can buy and shoot whatever you like. It's none of my business, and I wish you the best. But keep posting nonsense, and folks like me will keep making fun of it.

HTH!

 

[MCgunner]

"I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686." I told this in post #111. 38 Special,this is an absolute FACT. The Remmy was brand new and the Gew 98 was over 100 years old at the time of the comparison. The Gew shot consistant 2'' 5shot groups while 3''-4'' groups was the BEST the 700 could do from a rest. I have never had 1'' MOA with a mil-surp but I have come close. As to mil-surps being superior in quality to new production guns,I can only say that in SOME cases that could be true but isn't the norm and I really don't remember anyone saying that. I know I didn't.

One can make just about any off the shelf factory sporting rifle shoot 1 MOA with just a little judicious handloading. Sometimes you'll run in to the need for free floating or bedding a rifle, but usually just right out of the crate, the gun will shoot 1 MOA or better. I have not found this to be the case with your average milsurp which has barrel bands and fore stocks and hand guards pressing upon the barrels every which way interfering with the natural barrel vibration. Most GOOD milsurps like the K98s will put their first three pretty tight, though. Some of the other mausers are known for their better accuracy like the Swedes and the Finnish Mosins have a rep. Hard to take advantage of any accuracy you might have, though, unless you "bubba" the gun, drill and tap and turn the bolt down, for a scope. K98s ain't cheap anymore and the extra gunsmithing can easily add a hundred bucks anymore.

I'll stick with my 3/4 MOA Remingtons and my 1 MOA Savage for hunting. The milsurps are cool, but not real practical. I just enjoy putting rounds down range with 'em. And as for "poorly made milsurps", yeah, I can think of some, Arisakas and Carcanos and such. But, some are BEAUTIFULLY machined and fitted in the old world tradition. I have an 88 commission rifle. Now, I know it's not super desirable or modern. It was converted in the 40s to the S round for home guard use. It shoots as fine as a K98 out of the box. Thing is, though, if you look at the works on this thing, it is beautiful. The machining quality and smoothness of the bolt are second to none. The bolt rides like it's on ball bearings. Open it and just tilt the gun slowly to the rear. At about a 20 degree tilt, the bolt will start sliding open. At 30 degrees it'll slide fully rearward. My Savage 110 feels like it rides on sandpaper and has to be near vertical before the bolt will slide open of its own weight. I sometimes just get that old commission rifle out just to admire the action, the quality of the fitting and workmanship. Just having this gun to admire, let alone shoot and have the privilege of ownership of such a well made firearm, is worth the $27.50 I gave for it in 1976.

 

[.38 Special]

One could say classic cars are no good because they do not have dual zone A/C, MP3 ports, and power windows. But this would not make them junk.

Actually, I'm saying that going down to the used car lot and buying an old Yugo is not the same as buying an AC Cobra. And I'm also saying that buying the old Yugo and then crowing about how much faster, more reliable, and better made it is compared to today's factory models from Ford, Honda, etc. is going to get you laughed at.

And, again, I'm saying that collecting old Yugos might be a fine and affordable hobby, and if that turns your knob, then have fun. But if a Yugo collector turns up on the classic car website bemoaning the fact that he spent an AC Cobra's worth of money but ended up with a field full of old Yugos, I'd suggest that throwing a bunch of angry and whiny posts at him is probably not going to accomplish much.

 

[gun addict]

so .38 special, you're saying Finnland, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, USA are all 3rd world country that have no idea what they're doing when making their guns? That all their stuff are low quality and only the stuff you buy from Wallmart's shelf are "high quality products"?

 

[MCgunner]

Actually, I'm saying that going down to the used car lot and buying an old Yugo is not the same as buying an AC Cobra. And I'm also saying that buying the old Yugo and then crowing about how much faster, more reliable, and better made it is compared to today's factory models from Ford, Honda, etc. is going to get you laughed at.

Sure, there's old Yugos....*cough-carcano-cough*, but then there's the gull winged 50s Mercedes, too, ya know, or the old Porches or perhaps (I'm a biker, not into cars) a 1957 500cc GP V8 Moto Guzzi road racer or an old Norton Manx or a BSA GoldStar. They're not as fast as some modern equivalents like the Ducati Desmosedici MotoGP bike or an RC211V, but hey, they sure have class! And, think of the history! And, heck, you can still ride to the dairy queen on a K model Harley flat head, ya know. I don't think anyone will laugh at a nicely restored flat head or GoldStar. You might have to worry about old biker drool on the paint. It probably wouldn't impress some 20 year old punk, but who cares?

 

[bearmgc]

I have a sporterized Swede carbine 6.5x55. Its a great shooter. Has a 4x Burris on it. I traded a cheapo, at the time, Rom AK for it. It will prolly not increase in value, but its the perfect antelope rifle for me. I bought tons of Privi partisan when it went on sale, so ammo ready. Milsurps are utilitarian rifles, and reflect history. Most were meant to shoot minute of body, and some do have great hunting applications, usually with modifications needed. For precision shooting, I think a commercial rifle would be better.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

First off that Remington 700 doing only 3''-4'' groups was mine so I know for fact that is all it would do. I know with the proper tinkering it probably would do much better. I had a Remminton Model 700 ADL that was 1 MOA and a Medol 7 as well. It wasn't hard for the Gew98 with shortened barrel and scope to beat it. Be wary about calling someone a liar unless you can prove otherwise. FWIW my MOST accurate rifle is a cheap Steven's Model 200 in .223rem.

 

[MCgunner]

Did I say "liar"? All I was saying is that your average Remington 700 is going to outshoot your average milsurp and I bet I coulda made YOUR gun shoot 1 MOA just by handloading. If not, floating the barrel and/or perhaps bedding the action does the trick 99 percent of the time. I have known guns from major makers that were just turds, though. It happens.

I worked with my Savage 110 using all sorts of load until I ended up with a couple of bullets it likes and its favorite powder, RL22. It took 6 months of loading this and that and going to the range and shooting groups and chronographing loads. Some bullets were 4-6 MOA in that thing. It's kinda picky about the loads it likes. I finally floated the barrel and that made it quite consistent.