New .380 ammo?

[Tirod]

Reading G&A's Personal Defense magazine, Bart Skelton hints a major ammo maker is coming out with a new, effective (!) .380.

Who?

I speculate - hey, it's what the interweb does best, right? - a solid SXT type bullet, less than 80 grams, with double base powder, over 1350 fps. After all, it's just a short 9mm.

The demand is there, the ammo is coming.

 

[kitsapcharly]

Take a look at Double Tap. They have 380 that gives 250 pounds of muzzle energy from a Bersa and 200 from a Kel-Tec. SAAMI standard pressure...NOT +P. Little or no muzzle flash. Your choice of FMJ or JHP. This is amazing in a little KT that I can fit in the watch pocket of my jeans.

 

[EHL]

less than 80 grams

I'm guessing you meant 80 grains. Why would I want a bullet that light??? It better be solid copper like the DPX if it's gonna be that light. I can't imagine it penetrating that much at such a light weight. I'd have to see it to believe it. (it's about time these ammo manufactures started playing around with the .380, it's high time we saw some difinitive improvements)

 

[Dees]

I agree, I'd like to see some more potent .380 ammo. 80 grains at 1350 fps is 324 ft-lbs, that's nearly 9mm.

 

[tawcat]

Never heard of Double Tap. But Buffalo Bore offers some pretty awesome .380 stuff.

 

[Marcus L.]

The problem with the .380acp is not that it needs to use lighter bullets, but that it needs to use longer heavier bullets. At 90grs it has a sectional density lower than that of a .22lr or .25acp resulting in very poor penetration with JHPs. Sectional density in lay terms is basically how much momentum a bullet possesses relative to its diameter. A 9mm 135gr bullet has more sectional density than a .40 135gr which focuses more momentum on a smaller focal point resulting in greater penetration with JHPs.

Sectional Density is what the .380acp needs.

"Many small, easily concealed semi-automatic pistols which are recommended for law enforcement backup or concealed carry use fire .380 ACP or smaller bullets. While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds,they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not acceptable for law enforcement use and most savvy agencies prohibit them." -Dr. Gary Roberts at the National Defense Industrial Association

Winchester Ranger Talons:

FBI Test Protocol: (12" of penetration is passing)
Bare Gelatin = covered with T-shirt, Shot at 10ft
Denim = 4 layers shot at 10ft
Heavy Clothing = shot at 10ft
Steel = 2 pieces of 20 gauge, shot at 10ft
Wallboard = 2 pieces of 1/2" gypsum board, shot at 10ft
Plywood = 1 piece of 3/4" AA fir plywood, shot at 10ft
Automobile Glass = 1 piece of 1/4" laminated safety glass set at a 45 degree angle with an offset of 15 degrees, shot at 10ft

.380 95gr(1000fps): (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 7.65”/.65”
Through Denim: 7.95”/.64”
Through Heavy Cloth: 7.85”/.64”
Through Wallboard: 15”/.36” JHP plugged with material, load behaves as FMJ.
Through Plywood: 15.5”/.36” JHP plugged with material, load behaves as FMJ.
Through Steel: 9.3”/.36”
Through Auto Glass: 4.5”/NA

This is typical performance of the .380acp with most modern loads. Increasing velocity in the case of Double Tap ammo only improves expansion of the GD bullet, it does not improve penetration as was observed by CCI Speer when they designed the Gold Dot. A truly improved load for self defense would be a .380acp JHP with a bullet weight of around 100gr that expands reliably. The only load I've seen accurate testing for that borderlines passing in bare gel is the Hornady 90gr XTP which I carry as my BUG on duty. It does this by limiting bullet expansion to around .45" so as to not have too much of a parachute effect and reduce penetration.

 

[DawgFvr]

The only thing you can do to improve the .380 platform is make it an exploding bullet...or maybe dip the tip in some fast acting poison...hee...hee.

 

[Claude Clay]

misplaced powerful projectiles promote poor performance.

so practice till you can shoot it properly.

after all: placement makes any projectile potent.

 

[Tirod]

Thanks, yes, grains, not grams.

Marcus's comments on the .380 are interesting - it sums up the lot of most current rounds. It could also be said of the 9MM itself twenty years ago. There was insufficient energy delivered, and the typical ball ammo didn't perform.

Taking that historical lesson, I see that ammo makers dropped the weight and raised the speed. It's always limited by the maximum chamber pressure, so weights tend to be inversely proportional to speed within the caliber.

My attempt at speculation was to propose a slighty lighter weight bullet propelled at higher speed to deliver more energy within the confines of the pressure envelope. I understand one ammo maker has also been able to add power using a double base - which I assume (!) allows slightly longer burn time at specified pressure to raise speed.

I guess that by flattening the peak and extending duration, more energy is imparted to the bullet before it leaves the barrel, and the weapon still operates within it's design pressure.

No doubt I see more recoil, which could definitely affect user appreciation. In a BUG, it's considered a tradeoff.

I've always thought the use of +P in major calibers was a bit over the top - how much do you need out of a .45?, but in the .380, it's a relevant discussion.

Some suggest that a compact like the PM9 solves the "problem" of size vs. caliber. Having had a Detonics Pocket Pal, I see the point, and appreciate Kahr using a polymer frame. That old stainless shooter was a bit much in the pocket.

 

[Marcus L.]

Tirod,

Energy matters little if the bullet does not penetrate deeply enough to physically damage the large blood bearing organs of the body. Light, high energy loads are only good for piercing. Piercing is punching through a hard outer layer of a substance such and sheet steel. Penetration is going beyond that outter layer to inflict damage well within that barrier.

Penetration is a function of momentum and projectile diameter. This is the concept of sectional density. The larger the bullet diameter, the greater the momentum needed to cause deep penetration. The 9mm 147gr bullet has the highest sectional density of all the major service calibers. Thus, it has the highest momentum relative to its bullet diameter and tends to be one of the best penetrating service calibers. The .380acp on the other hand has VERY low sectional density at 90gr resulting in very low momentum relative to its bullet diameter. This is evident in the gel testing results I posted earlier. The optimal .380acp round would likely be a 100-110gr bullet at around 800-900fps with expansion around .45-.50" to ensure deep enough penetration. However, even the best designed .380acp loads will NEVER come close to the capabilities of the 9mm and .38spl due to its restrictions. Never use energy or velocity to measure the effects of a bullet. You look at what it does to testing substances to determine with good accuracy what it would do to a person.

Service caliber handgun bullets do not wound or incapacitate by any other method other than physical trauma through direct contact with the bullet. This is why perps can take multiple hits from a high energy .357mag 125gr bullet to the chest which remain in the body and not fall down or be significantly incapacitated......the bullets did not hit any major arteries or nerve centers. There are many books on this matter by experienced trauma surgeons and pathologists such as Dr. Martin Fackler and Duncan McPherson.

A service caliber handgun bullet seems to be most effective in wadcutter format which increases cutting effects on the tissue it comes into contact with. Modern hollow points also try to get this cutting effect which improves on the wadcutter design by expanding the bullet diameter to increase the area cut. Some of latest and best loads are the Federal Tactical Bonded, Federal HST, Winchester Ranger Talon, and Winchester Ranger Bonded. 9mm NATO and many other FMJ auto pistol bullet designs lack cutting surfaces so they tend to zip through the body with reduced tissue damage.

 

[tostada]

I've seen a few tests where .380 DPX expands to about 0.65 and penetrates 10"-13" through denim into gelatin (the 10" being out of a P3AT). I'd be surprised if anything really compares to that.

Someone educate me on .380s. Isn't the whole point in the .380 ACP that the guns are blowback because round has lower pressure, so they're smaller and simpler?

Doesn't that also mean that there's a definite limit to how hot you can make .380 ammo before you have to worry about reliability?

 

[Marcus L.]

Tostada,

I have never seen a .380acp gel test that was performed by experienced professionals according to strict FBI testing standards where the testers actually documented their work with photographed testing calibration and the load performed that well. I have never seen an internet testing site that has actually photographed their calibration BB in the gel in edition to their single shot test. Photograph evidence of proper calibration is easy to document, but most testers don't do it because they know that if their calibration is off they can skew the testing data to favor their new and improved load they are trying to sell you. Sites like Brass Fetcher do not document their calibration and quality controls. Unless they are certified testers for LE and government agencies like the Firearms Institute or the National Defense Industrial Association, you cannot trust their data unless they take a couple of extra photos to prove to you that their testing was in accord with proper standards. If no test BB is fired into the gel prior to testing, the tester has no idea if the gel has the correct density. The BB must be fired at a specific velocity and it must penetrate to a specific depth......if it doesn't the block of gel must be thrown out and you have to start all over again. Needless to say, proper gel testing is very time consuming and gets expensive. This is why Ammo Lab doesn't test anymore. They couldn't afford it even with $100 annual memberships.

Right now, the best .380acp load is still the Hornady 90gr XTP JHP which has an average penetration depth of 11" in bare gel and expands to around .45". There are also a few heavy semi-wadcutter loads out there that would be my second choice. Regardless, I wouldn't use the .380acp for anything but up close and personal defense. Definatly not up for being a duty caliber.

 

[tostada]

Sheesh! That was quite the rant just to say you don't believe the numbers.

You yourself had nothing to offer but a random article with vague (nearly nonsensical) references to the 380 not having the power for "rapid incapacitation" -- and your own reference said that even Hornady's 380 loads had "unaccaptable" performance.

And you also didn't answer my question, so what's your point?

 

[Marcus L.]

No, I don't believe those numbers are accurate because valid testing from credible professional testers show very different results for the .380acp. Examples would be the FBI which has tested updated ammo for the .380acp several times in the last 20yrs, in addition to the Firearms Institute and the National Defense Industrial Association. It is important for people to understand that if gel testing isn't done properly the results could be way off and they are trusting false data that has the potential to put their lives in jeopardy. Most people will never have to use their pistol in self defense to demonstrate that their ammo choice is inadequate, so ammo peddlers can skew data with confidence that they won't have a lawsuit come their way. Shooting into gel that has not been properly calibrated is about as accurate a test as shooting into water jugs, clay, or watermelons.

The article I referenced comes from a law enforcement only forum in which you must be a member to look at. So, I copied and pasted a portion of it to help those who depend on the .380acp for protection. After all, I believe in the rights of civilians to defend themselves and I believe in protecting those same civilians from internet fiction which could get them killed. Dr. Roberts gives a pass/fail rating to ammunition for duty use based on whether they can consistantly penetrate up to 12". No current .380acp JHP can do that, but if you must rely on the .380acp then the Hornady load is closest load to passing that you can carry. Sometimes options are limited, as I am only authorized to carry a Sig P232 .380acp as a BUG for duty use.

To answer your question, the .380acp was designed in 1908 for strict use in simple and cheap blow back pistols. SAAMI pressure rating is 21,500psi and it is probably not a good idea to exceed it in blow back designs. A locking breech design could likely handle higher pressure .380acp loads well provided that the brass can handle it.

 

[kokapelli]

"I've seen a few tests where .380 DPX expands to about 0.65 and penetrates 10"-13" through denim into gelatin (the 10" being out of a P3AT). I'd be surprised if anything really compares to that."

If you believe that I have a bridge I would like to show you.

 

[krs]

For comparative consideration, the SAAMI pressure limit of 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi.



In the words of the Esteemed "EHL" : "Here we go again"

 

[frankd4]

And still year after year more peolpe in the US a killed by .22's it's all about shot placement I'm getting old so I carry a XD 45.

 

[tostada]

Well, if a .380 is 21,500 PSI max, wouldn't most manufacturers already be getting really close to that just to try and have effective ammo? How much more can really be done? Sounds like trying to get something from nothing.

But that's awfully low, isn't it? Maybe some manufacturers are already exceeding it. Even .22 LR HV rounds are around 24,000 PSI. Not that it means much since the case volume is so small.

9mm is 35,000 PSI and many people would call 9mm ammo sub-optimal until you get into top quality +P JHP. The +P is 38,500 PSI and NATO is 42,000-43,000 PSI, which is around what +P+ gets up to.

I sure can't find much good, valid info on different .380 loads. I can find plenty testing on Stingers having all kinds of penetration out of any .22 (and now Interceptors are better). I'd almost be more comfortable poking holes in someone with a .22 than worrying if a .380 could get past their ribcage.

 

[krs]

No, 21,500 isn't awfully low in a pistol caliber, in fact it's higher than the SAAMI 21,000 psi of .45 acp.

It's about the capability of the cartridge design in all of it's aspects but does factor the type of firearm in which the cartridge is commonly used. The weak link though is the brass casing and it's design.

I would doubt that any manufacturer of ammunition makes ammo that exceeds the SAAMI limits - they'd be putting themselves at a very high risk in an action against them were a firearm failure result from the excessive pressure their little bomb developed, or simply by creating such high pressures that case failures occur and cause the sort of pretty traumatic injury that can and occasionally do happen to shooters, often because of reloading carelessness - pushing the load beyond the capacity of the case to contain it.

 

[kitsapcharly]

In the midst of all the facts and figures it could be pointed out that Kel-tec 380s have a locked breech design...not blowback. In theory, you might load hotter than the standard pressure...not advisable.
Main thing about a little gun is they're all too weak...but, they work better than what you don't have ever will. My favorite gun is my XD-45c and when carrying a full sized gun that's my favorie. The little KT is always there if needed. 380 is about the most you can put in such a tiny package. It's smaller and lighter than most 25s.
Nobody's suggesting this caliber replace big guns when you can carry them but what alternative is offered for the watch pocket or a pocket holster? Instead of complaining about 380 try designing a pocket 45. 11 ounces loaded is the standard to shoot for.

 

[Newton]

Just what we need, another lame shallow penetrating .380 load.

If I wanted one of those I'd get the DPX and avoid the wait.

Do the ammo makers not understand that the real demand is for a super hot 100 grain load with very controlled expansion and 10 inches of penetration, sort of a Golden sabre with a little more powder.

 

[ugaarguy]

Sites like Brass Fetcher do not document their calibration and quality controls. Unless they are certified testers for LE and government agencies like the Firearms Institute or the National Defense Industrial Association, you cannot trust their data unless they take a couple of extra photos to prove to you that their testing was in accord with proper standards. If no test BB is fired into the gel prior to testing, the tester has no idea if the gel has the correct density. The BB must be fired at a specific velocity and it must penetrate to a specific depth......if it doesn't the block of gel must be thrown out and you have to start all over again. Needless to say, proper gel testing is very time consuming and gets expensive.

John (JE223, aka Brassfetcher) does photograph his calibration BB, and posts all calibration data. Before you start discrediting the man in a public forum maybe you should learn a little more about him. He is a hydraulics engineer by degree and trade. Just because he isn't certified to do LE testing doesn't make his results invalid. He probably isn't certified because he only does testing for the general public. He has the education and knowledge to do simple ballistic gelatin testing. As you say, it's very expensive to do it right, so keep in mind how much time and money he's spent doing this testing. All the while he's posted the results free to anyone with internet access.

 

[Marcus L.]

John (JE223, aka Brassfetcher) does photograph his calibration BB, and posts all calibration data. Before you start discrediting the man in a public forum maybe you should learn a little more about him. He is a hydraulics engineer by degree and trade. Just because he isn't certified to do LE testing doesn't make his results invalid. He probably isn't certified because he only does testing for the general public. He has the education and knowledge to do simple ballistic gelatin testing. As you say, it's very expensive to do it right, so keep in mind how much time and money he's spent doing this testing. All the while he's posted the results free to anyone with internet access.

He must have changed his testing then. Not too long ago he was doing things like using the same testing block for multiple shots. Good for him if he's sticking with proper protocols now.

 

[kokapelli]

There was a guy that used to post at Ktog who loaded 380 rounds to 9mm+P velocities.

He posted pictures of the cases after they were fired and they always had pronounced bulges where they were not supported near the ramp of his P-3AT.

As far as I know he never had a blowup, but since he doesn't post any more I'm not so sure.

 

[jerkface11]

There was a guy that used to post at Ktog who loaded 380 rounds to 9mm+P velocities.

Was his name Clark?