Not the sort of thing that makes you feel warm and fuzzy about national security

[rainbowbob]

Apparently some people's situation awareness skills are obviously so poor the nanosecond it takes to chamber a round is a time THEY are 'worried' they could be dead...if I was in a situation and my 'threat level' was raised.... I'd chamber a round too.

Rabbit:
The belief that a violent assailant is going to give you a head start to ready your weapon is the kind of magical thinking that could lead to a very tragic outcome.

Unless you have eyes in the back of your head, you can't possibly be aware of every threat every time.

In addition, many potential threats don't warrant openly drawing and making your firearm ready until it's too late to do so.

I honestly can't fathom being so afraid of a firearm that I won't carry it in a mode that allows me to use it instantly if needed.

 

[ny32182]

Well, in my opinion and that of any major organization or school you can find, I am RIGHT.

The fellow in the vid is obviously in need of more training... goes without saying after that sorry display. Actually, walking away from a loaded gun in front of detainees like that... I don't see how anyone could possibly justify letting the guy keep his job. Those are two consecutive inexcusable actions.

 

[Eagles6]

Interesting. I would assume that since you don't carry a round in the chamber of the semi-auto weapon that you would carry for defense you also would not carry a round chambered in your semi 12 gauge while hunting birds or rabbits or your 740 while hunting larger game. Is that right?

 

[runrabbitrun]

Rainbow.

I understand that.
I also understand why some LEO's may keep their gun at 'ready to fire' mode at all times.
(You gotta be ready man)...

I'm not LE and I'm NOT going to keep a round (chambered)
in my Browning HP 9mm while it's sitting
in my night stand, because the 'possibly' exist that some intruder may get
the drop on me in a nanosecond. (Or that I don't feel confident enough with a gun)...
If I ever get an CCP, or find myself at DEFCON 1... I'll decide then if I need to run around with
rounds chambered in my weapons at all times.

Do they teach 360 situation awareness to LEO?
If not, perhaps it's time to... along with some 'enhanced' gun safety training.

If you put your weapon in a locker back at HQ.
And your not on the street in the 'ready to fire mode'...
Why keep a round in the chamber?

If it's SOP for the cop on the beat to be locked and loaded
with round in chamber, at ALL TIMES, then fine.

I'm just saying: See what can happen? See?

Follow the rule 'the gun is always loaded' and the chances of
an AD are surly greatly reduced. (I will assume)...

Did this guy treat this weapon as 'ready to rock' or 'always loaded'?
Obviously not, or he would of handled that gun a lot different than he did.

Peace you LEO guys. Didn't mean to hit a nerve.
YOUR life is in eminent danger at all times. I understand that.
Even off duty, there may be people looking to settle a score with you.
So again, I understand your stance and UNDERSTAND your need to be READY at ALL times.

Anyway, I've learned a few things from this thread.

Hopefully others did too.

 

[David E]

He wasn't "highly trained."

I agree that incompetent people should keep their chamber empty if they are forced to carry a gun. Better still, unload the gun completely.

Naively thinking that there is always time to chamber a round before it's needed is laughable. Why not be "ultra-safe" and keep the gun unloaded with a mag in the pocket? It wouldn't take much more time and using that aforementioned logic, it would be "safer"

If someone feels "unsafe" carrying a particular gun with a round chambered, then choose a gun that will make that thought bearable.

Rabbit, do you make the revolver toters visiting your house empty their cylinder? I mean, a revolver has SIX chambers (or more) that are loaded.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Interesting. I would assume that since you don't carry a round in the chamber of the semi-auto weapon that you would carry for defense you also would not carry a round chambered in your semi 12 gauge while hunting birds or rabbits or your 740 while hunting larger game. Is that right?

If your addressing me.
NO... I'm locked and loaded, ready to fire.
I'm in that mode to USE said weapon NOW and acting accordingly.
Also be advised. I don't carry openly or have a CCP.
Nor do I carry a gun to go to the grocery store or walk out on my back deck to take in the scenery.

Now I'll admit this.
If I lived where I used to (in S. Florida)
I would NEVER be unarmed and it may be possible
I might even feel the need to be chambered as well.
Situation awareness man. lol

 

[Kindrox]

What reason is that? If you fired a Glock, your finger pulled the trigger, and not just a little bit. This is the same motion that fires any double action pistol.

Correction, something pulled the trigger. Maybe a finger, maybe some sort of soft snag. For our house, we keep all one type of handgun for SD. I am not saying the glock is bad, just that I won't have a mix in the house.

It keeps training simple. I carry loaded myself under the theory that if I have a lot of advance notice that trouble is coming, I can probably avoid the situation all together.

I would never let my wife out of the house with an unloaded gun. We men can beat our chests about situational awareness, but we have to take our wifes as they are right now.

 

[IndianaBoy]

Well obviously some feel the need to be chambered at ALL times.
Stay away from me please as I've seen what can happen.

Apparently some people's situation awareness skills are obviously so poor the
nanosecond it takes to chamber a round is a time THEY are 'worried' they could be dead by an aggressor.
I can understand that way of thinking and trust me, if I was in a situation and my
'threat level' was raised.... I'd chamber a round too.

I'm just not comfortable walking around with a live round
in a chamber of ANY gun, until ready to possibly FIRE said gun.
There is no NEED for it, other than 'machismo'. IMHO

I really wouldn't be concerned with how you handle your firearms safely, if you didn't feel the need to disparage those of us who safely carry a firearm with a round chambered every day. Situational awareness is all well and good. Criminal attacks are VIOLENT, and disorienting. Things happen fast. It is foolish to assume at a criminal could never get the drop on you. Here locally scumbags have taken to robbing people while they are in line at drive thru fast foot windows. The cars are blocked in, they have no place to go, their window is down, and they just don't see it coming. If you stand in line in a convenience store the guy behind you might be getting ready to rob the place. I walked into a robbery in progress in a convenience store one night a few years ago. I never cleared leather but you can BET I wasn't worried about needing to get a round chambered before I could defend myself if the guys had decided they wanted one less witness.

For a man who admits he doesn't carry to admonish those of us who do, and who do take it very seriously... is a bit galling. We are all gun owners and friends, lets treat each other as such.

A Glock, Sig, CZ or 1911 in a proper holster that covers the trigger guard is not dangerous so long as you keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. If however, you choose to carry with an empty chamber, I respect your decision and won't make disparaging remarks about the mindset that might arrive at that conclusion.

 

[ny32182]

I have tried to pull the Glock trigger with a "soft snag" (clothing bunched up in the side of the trigger guard) and been unsuccessful. That is what the trigger safety is for. You need to apply significant force to the center of the trigger; not just the right or left edge. Nothing is impossible and I'm sure that somewhere, someone has managed to fire a Glock with their shirt tail, but I like the way the trigger is designed from a "safety" standpoint.

I also make myself use a single mechanical system and feel that is a good idea from a standpoint of muscle memory consistency of the draw/fire/reholster process. I used to carry SIGs, and while they are fine pistols, I really started to like the Glock's total feature set after I started shooting one. Now the Glock is all I carry or shoot in a dynamic/competetive format.

Among other things, I like the consistency of the Glock trigger from shot to shot and the fact that the extra step of decocking is not required prior to reholstering. Once again a training issue, but like I said, one of my primary goals is simplicity: If you forget to decock the Sig in a stressful situation, you are reholstering with a single action trigger pull, and if you *do* somehow get some clothing into the trigger guard, the single action trigger could be pulled a lot easier than a Glock trigger. It is just one less step, and less steps = better in my opinion.

 

[IndianaBoy]

I carry a Sig currently and I know where you are coming from.

The consistent trigger of the Glock is a boon in gungames like IPSC too.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Note to any and all:

If my comments were taken that I'm disparaging anyone
for being hot 24/7... Sorry. Truly I am.
It wasn't my intentions and I have come away learning something.
Or rather having some things re-dawn on me.
And that is that LEO and obviously people living
in urban war zones have a need to be HOT 24/7.

See? That was easy, and don't worry, I wont be joining the Brady Bunch
or will I EVER support their so called 'common sense gun laws'. OK? lol

I will state that if anyone feels machismo isn't
a reason for possibly some people's 'reason' as to why they carry hot.
Well... I'd just have to disagree.
Unless they have somehow outlawed and eradicated testosterone,
I know this not to be the case.
As a matter of fact, I've seen it first hand in many industries...
including LE, corrections officers, (was married to one)
construction workers, bouncers, security guards, you name it...

Just remember this please.
It's sometimes hard to communicate on the net.
We don't see body language and all.
With me you will find most my posts are tongue and cheek
or meant to spark thought processes, sometimes debate... But not always.

I've learned some stuff and came away with an understanding as well
as respect others points of views and reasons to have chambered rounds at all times.

Isn't that what this place is all about?

Anyway, lets hope the guys who were shot are ok
and that particular department puts a better emphasis on properly stored weapons safety in the near future.

 

[ny32182]

I'm not sure how you are going to make someone think you are "macho" with a round in the chamber of a concealed handgun, seeing as the whole gun is concealed. No one can see the gun, much less the chamber.

Impossible to tell from the video, but it looks to me like the gun was in a locked box. I've got no problem with a loaded gun in a locked box. That is what quick-access handgun safes are all about: they provide the ability to safely store a loaded gun in a place where "unauthorized" people could potentially access it. The guy pulled the trigger when he was trying to holster. Nothing but his sloppy trigger dicipline caused that; definitely not the box it was in prior.

 

[Low Budget Shooter]

Dear rrr,

I appreciate that you are backing off some and trying to make peace with those you have just offended, but I must take issue with your politician-sounding lingo of being sorry "if my comments were taken as disparaging . . ."

You see, the problem you need to be sorry for was not that someone TOOK your comments as disparaging, but that your comments WERE disparaging.

Done properly, an apology goes something like this: "I am sorry for making disparaging comments about those of you who understand the carry of firearms better than I do."

LBS

 

[ny32182]

I carry a Sig currently and I know where you are coming from.

I have two Sigs I will never sell, one being a classic P228 (non-R) and one of the original run of P229ST (also non-R). Unfortunately they see little action these days, but I really like them still. I carried the 228 for a while. I have had others that have been sold, and still have a 226/.40 that I shot in IDPA years ago, but just haven't shot it a lot in recent years. Some days I just have to take them out of the safe to get my "metal gun" fix. Heh.

 

[IndianaBoy]

It's sometimes hard to communicate on the net.
We don't see body language and all.
With me you will find most my posts are tongue and cheek

Isn't that the truth!


No harm done.

 

[BigGuy52]

Makes me wonder who trained this Boob? You NEVER have your finger on the trigger unless you plan on discharging your firearm.

Needs some safety 101 training.

 

[kanook]

runrabbitrun does this look familiar?

Another reason to check your firearm's status often.
'The gun is always loaded' rule of thumb would of had you
discovering that the weapon was indeed unloaded...
Therefore prompting you to correct this 'oversight' BEFORE your hike.

Going hiking today:
Got my back pack: check
Got my crackers in the backpack: check
Flashlight: check
Water in canteen: check
Rope: check
First aid stuff: check
Gun: 'Oh GUN, ahem lets double check to ensure it's safe to transport
(IN A BACKPACK, no less) one last time, before I set out.
Lock and load... Oh ahem, no bullets. Good thing I checked'.

An equipment check is called an equipment check for a reason.
Still though, to error is human and glad the op didn't shoot himself in the foot this time.
(Meaning: Didn't have a 'situation' where he NEEDED a loaded gun)...

OP, glad all turned out OK.

so is it OK to carry a loaded gun or not?

 

[Davek1977]

I see nothing "macho" about carrying a round cahmbered, nor do I honeslty believe thats why the vast majority of ccw holders carry their weapons with a round chambered. You said you carry a hunting weapon "locked and loaded" becasue you are in a "mode" ready to "use" the weapon NOW. Excuse me, but unless your hunting is a whole lot different than the style of hunting I'm used to....theres quite a lot of time spent carrying your weapon, and not firing it. The same can be said for a concealed pistol. Just like you might have to make a snaphot to kill that pheasant, I may have an equivalent amount of time to fend off an attacker, and the stakes are MUCH higher if I fail to do that than if I miss the pheasant. You carry your hsotgun loaded "just in case" you get a shot at the game you are hunting. I carry a round chambered in my concealment gun "just in case" too. I don't know about you, but I don't know when I'm going to be attacked, so I don't have the leisure of chambereing a round "before anything happens". Most crimes occur when you are least expecting them to, and it can happen as easy in your suburban neighborhood as it can in the roughest ghetto. Bad guys make careers out of attacking those who don't expect it. If having a round chambered means I can shorten that career, while saving my life in the process....I'm comfortble with that. I'm also confident in my own ability to handle a firearm safely and correctly, and I also realizethe biggest safety device is between my ears and not on the gun. By all means, if you aren't comfortable carrying your pistol with a round chambered, don't do it. However, don't insinuate its an inherently dangeous practice simply becasue its beyond your comfort zone. Its only as dangerous as the person handling it, and I have no doubts about my own personal abilities to handle a gun in a safe manner at all times, be it loaded and chambered or empty.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Guys I already stated I now understand the REASON many
of you feel the need to be chambered at all times.
I've been schooled OK?

I also now know that apparently, a lot of people walk around chambered 24/7.
I did not know this before and I'm grateful to now have this knowledge.
Dose it make me feel more comfortable after watching videos
of trained LEO with 'chamber rounds' accidentally shooting themselves and others?
Not really, but life will go on and I'll get over it.

Hell I'm already over it.


To address the other item some take issue with:
If your assertion/s are that there are no 'machismo type attitudes' in the world any longer.
GREAT.... OK... FINE...
I stated that SOME may carry 'hot' as part of their machismo make up.
I've seen it first hand, so I know it happens.
So we will simply have to agree to disagree on that point.

Really it's all good and who knows, in the future as a result of this
revelation, I too may feel it necessary to walk around hot 24/7.

Thanks for the schooling. Yall keep em safe up there.

Can you tell which one is ME in the smiley below? lol

 

[Kleanbore]

Apparently some people's situation awareness skills are obviously so poor the nanosecond it takes to chamber a round is a time THEY are 'worried' they could be dead by an aggressor.

OK, try this. You have a concealed weapon with an empty chamber. Your "situation awareness skills" indicate the possibility of danger.

To chamber, you have to draw. To draw is to commit a crime...

...unless the danger of death or serious bodily harm is imminent.

In practice, that means you usually have about a second and a half to draw and shoot while running backwards to create more time and distance.

Try that with an empty chamber--that "nanosecond" will seem pretty darn long, I think.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm still waiting to see someone prove guns just fire on their own without a finger on the trigger.

From some of the posts here you'd think it happened every day.

Sounds like reading a Brady brochure to me.

 

[Cannonball888]

That guy is a moron. Not just a ND, but he deliberately leaves a loaded gun behind the detainees and walks away. One mistake followed by another. He needs a new job.

 

[Southern Rebel]

Well obviously some feel the need to be chambered at ALL times.
Stay away from me please as I've seen what can happen.

Actually, I am more uncomfortable when someone is in the act of chambering/unchambering a cartridge. Generally, both of those acts involve the hammer being raised/lowered - "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!".

By your own definition, even you are sometimes an accident waiting to happen in those times when you feel the need to chamber a round. Adding to that "waiting accident" is that you would obviously have limited experience handling a truly loaded gun in a real-world atmosphere.

Generally speaking, I have no prejudice toward a person who prefers one approach over the other - my BIL refuses to carry his glock with one in the chamber. Every individual presents a different level of awareness and safety. Unless you know every individual and their knowlege/abilities, it is unfair to brand all members of a certain group as being accidents waiting to happen.

I know some owners whom I don't feel safe around, even if there is no cartridges in the gun or in the magazine. The idea that they even have a gun and access to ammunition is scary. On the other hand, their are a couple of individuals that don't bother me even if the gun is loaded and the hammer cocked because I KNOW the gun will never be pointed in an unsafe direction.

 

[Grey_Mana]

I didn't quite realize that this was a cult to some people, until I read these posts from the true believers trying to proselyte the unwashed into their faith of carrying, and condemning the heretics.

 

[Gamera]

I don't think anyone is condemning what rrr said, it's just the way he said it.

But yes, back to the video: is it possible the officer had his finger place on the outside of the trigger guard, and as he brought the weapon down into the holster, his finger hit the leather and was pushed into the trigger guard, thus pulling it and shooting himself?