Nuking Japan Saved Millions? Horsehockey
- Thread starter RGR
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My father bobbed around the South China Sea and became part of the occupying forces in Japan. Pre nuke he was scheduled to be part of the invasion force. He felt that the nuking saved him from a pretty rough time. I'll gladly accept my portion of the collective guilt. I consider it part of my heritage.
I had a bunch of points to make, most of which have already been made.
I do know that when I was in grade school I played in tunnels and bunkers left over from WWII, on Honshu, less than 20 miles west of Tokyo. It seems intuitive that if there were tunnels and bunkers, then fighting was anticipated.
Probably the most important thing to say, that I didn't see in this thread is:
Please Don't Feed the Troll.
I do know that when I was in grade school I played in tunnels and bunkers left over from WWII, on Honshu, less than 20 miles west of Tokyo. It seems intuitive that if there were tunnels and bunkers, then fighting was anticipated.
Probably the most important thing to say, that I didn't see in this thread is:
Please Don't Feed the Troll.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Put me on the list of people who more than likely wouldn't be here today if not for the use of the A-bombs on Japan. My father was in the P.I. getting ready to go and fight in the main Japanese Islands. Truman was the last Democrat with any sense.
Off Topic: He is another WWII vet who steadfastly maintains that the Red Cross charged him money for coffee and donuts on the way back home after the war ended. Leads me to believe it actually happened despite the Red Cross denials.
Off Topic: He is another WWII vet who steadfastly maintains that the Red Cross charged him money for coffee and donuts on the way back home after the war ended. Leads me to believe it actually happened despite the Red Cross denials.
mountainclmbr
Member
To those who start totalitarian/imperialistic wars...don't cry when you get a bloody nose in the fight you started. Japan got less than it did to the USA. It deserved 100% more. When an entire country engages on an evil enterprise, they should pay the consequences. It is our fortunate luck that we bombed them before they bombed us. They would have killed all of us if they had the choice. Those who worship evil escape my comprehension.
StuporDave
Member
Seems simple to me. You've got two choices:
1 - invade Japanese home islands. many thousands of Americans dead.
2 - drop atomic bombs. No invasion, no more Americans dead.
Looks like an easy choice to me. They were the ENEMY, remember?
We made the right choice.
1 - invade Japanese home islands. many thousands of Americans dead.
2 - drop atomic bombs. No invasion, no more Americans dead.
Looks like an easy choice to me. They were the ENEMY, remember?
We made the right choice.
Cactus
Member
I'm one more who might not be here if not for the bombs. My dad had returned from Europe and duty in B-24's to train on B-29's for the Japanese invasion.
If it saved only ONE life (my dad's), it was worth it to me!
If it saved only ONE life (my dad's), it was worth it to me!
The bombings did save millions, possibly billions. Not in Japan but everywhere in the decades afterwards. Somewhere in the back of Nicky Kruschev's twisted little mind he had to unquestionably know that we had the will to act decisively on a grand scale. The fact that we did this in 1945 may have saved us from total nuclear world war.
That war may have started on mainland China even earlier than the peak of the cold war. Had we not been witness to the bombing HST might have gone along with MacArthur's plan to employ nukes on strategic sites in China to precipitate the end of the Korean war. Instead he fired Mac, and rightfully so.
That war may have started on mainland China even earlier than the peak of the cold war. Had we not been witness to the bombing HST might have gone along with MacArthur's plan to employ nukes on strategic sites in China to precipitate the end of the Korean war. Instead he fired Mac, and rightfully so.
S_O_Laban
Member
Well, I for one, am glad RGR bothered to come back and post. This has been a most interesting thread and a heartfelt thanks to all who have participated.
I can honestly say, that almost everytime I drive by President Turmans home here in Independence that I wonder about his decision to drop the bomb and what it all means.... and this thread bears out what I usually end up thinking.... God bless Harry Truman for having the guts to do the right thing.
I think it more than irony that he came from Independence...
I can honestly say, that almost everytime I drive by President Turmans home here in Independence that I wonder about his decision to drop the bomb and what it all means.... and this thread bears out what I usually end up thinking.... God bless Harry Truman for having the guts to do the right thing.
I think it more than irony that he came from Independence...
mstnglx50
Member
"Force can accomplish many things which would be beyond the reach of cunning." Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832)
I thought this summed up my thoughts on the matter, my grandfather was in the Pacific and was to have participated in the invasion of mainland Japan, had not the greatest force ever unleashed by mankind been used to make an invasion unnecessary.
Alan Elam
I thought this summed up my thoughts on the matter, my grandfather was in the Pacific and was to have participated in the invasion of mainland Japan, had not the greatest force ever unleashed by mankind been used to make an invasion unnecessary.
Alan Elam
JPM70535
Member
I don't usually take the time to address this topic which seems to resurface with regularity, but here goes.
It is really fairly simple. Based on the past actions of the Japanese soldier in combat during the Island hopping czmpaign, the overwhelming body of evidence suggested that they would fight to the death and that surrender was not an option. Japanese religious belief in the Divinity of the Emporer, and the glory inherent in dying for him gave them a totally different perspective on death.
Americans, on the other hand believe that the glory lies in making the enemy's soldiers die for their country while resisting any attempt to glorify dying for any reason . An example was the Devine Wind, or Kamakazi. there is no way American pilots would have toasted FDR and flown their P-38s, or f-6s, or P47s enmasse into Japanese warships. Our minds just do not operate on that mental plane. And yes I know there were instances of American pilots deliberately diving into Japanese ships when they had sustained damage to themselves or their planes and had no chance of returning to their own Carriers. Isolated acts of deliberate suicide were just that. American mind set HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY, LIVES TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY!
An invasion of the Japanese home islands may not have cost a million American lives, but it darn sure would have cost thousands, not to mention the thousands (or 10s of thousands) of Japanese soldiers and civilians who would have preferred Suicide to surrender.
IIRC, the U.S. had a total of 3 nuclear devices, so to suggest that a proper course of action would have been a warning blast offshore as a demonstration is just ludicrous. when your arsenal of a particular weapon consists of 3, you do not expend 1/3 of them on a maybe.
I have always felt that the Japanese got just what they deserved, (Remember Pearl Harbor) and had I been making the decisions back then, rest assured My chosen targets would have been different. (By By Tokyo.
It is really fairly simple. Based on the past actions of the Japanese soldier in combat during the Island hopping czmpaign, the overwhelming body of evidence suggested that they would fight to the death and that surrender was not an option. Japanese religious belief in the Divinity of the Emporer, and the glory inherent in dying for him gave them a totally different perspective on death.
Americans, on the other hand believe that the glory lies in making the enemy's soldiers die for their country while resisting any attempt to glorify dying for any reason . An example was the Devine Wind, or Kamakazi. there is no way American pilots would have toasted FDR and flown their P-38s, or f-6s, or P47s enmasse into Japanese warships. Our minds just do not operate on that mental plane. And yes I know there were instances of American pilots deliberately diving into Japanese ships when they had sustained damage to themselves or their planes and had no chance of returning to their own Carriers. Isolated acts of deliberate suicide were just that. American mind set HE WHO FIGHTS AND RUNS AWAY, LIVES TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY!
An invasion of the Japanese home islands may not have cost a million American lives, but it darn sure would have cost thousands, not to mention the thousands (or 10s of thousands) of Japanese soldiers and civilians who would have preferred Suicide to surrender.
IIRC, the U.S. had a total of 3 nuclear devices, so to suggest that a proper course of action would have been a warning blast offshore as a demonstration is just ludicrous. when your arsenal of a particular weapon consists of 3, you do not expend 1/3 of them on a maybe.
I have always felt that the Japanese got just what they deserved, (Remember Pearl Harbor) and had I been making the decisions back then, rest assured My chosen targets would have been different. (By By Tokyo.
Hello everyone. I've been lurking here for awhile. Nice forum you have here. I just felt my fingers itching for a post while I was reading so I had to come out to the light. Before I go to the subject: I've heard from others I have a good and sweet personailty so I hope I receive another chance after this post. 
Its interesting to see the american point of view when you live in Europe where the ideas are not the same. Nothing proves better what a lying subject is history than that, it makes you think what you have to think. My views on these two bombs are simple: They killed more than 100 000 civilians. In a war it is concidered ethical to kill only the soldiers as far as I know. Killing civillians has a name: terrorism (That was the thesis, you can stop reading here if it seems too long).
I dont know if any of you has read Akira Kurosawa's autobiography. For the WW2 period he mentiones a few times about the end of the war: "It was already obvious we were losing the war" or "When we lose the war...". I was left with the impression the japanese knew they were losing. I dont know if they really were monsters, yes, this is possible, but I doubt this applies for the normal people who continued to live their normal lives and who actually were the ones who gave the victims.
Pearl harbour was a war base and soldiers are prepared for the thought they might die, its their choice, its a war. Besides like already was mentioned there is a rumor lately (I dont know how reliable it is, but my history teacher told it to me, and I think this gives it some good chances) that the US knew about the attack and let it happen so they can have a reason to bomb Japan and show their power. The number of the victims in both cases is incomparable.
What surprised me is that bluntly said some people think that american life worths more than a number of other lives from another nationality. I dont see how in this case the japanese can be accused into thinking they are superior than the other nations.
I just know how to make myself welcomed, no two opinions about it.
Its interesting to see the american point of view when you live in Europe where the ideas are not the same. Nothing proves better what a lying subject is history than that, it makes you think what you have to think. My views on these two bombs are simple: They killed more than 100 000 civilians. In a war it is concidered ethical to kill only the soldiers as far as I know. Killing civillians has a name: terrorism (That was the thesis, you can stop reading here if it seems too long).
I dont know if any of you has read Akira Kurosawa's autobiography. For the WW2 period he mentiones a few times about the end of the war: "It was already obvious we were losing the war" or "When we lose the war...". I was left with the impression the japanese knew they were losing. I dont know if they really were monsters, yes, this is possible, but I doubt this applies for the normal people who continued to live their normal lives and who actually were the ones who gave the victims.
Pearl harbour was a war base and soldiers are prepared for the thought they might die, its their choice, its a war. Besides like already was mentioned there is a rumor lately (I dont know how reliable it is, but my history teacher told it to me, and I think this gives it some good chances) that the US knew about the attack and let it happen so they can have a reason to bomb Japan and show their power. The number of the victims in both cases is incomparable.
What surprised me is that bluntly said some people think that american life worths more than a number of other lives from another nationality. I dont see how in this case the japanese can be accused into thinking they are superior than the other nations.
I just know how to make myself welcomed, no two opinions about it.
Welcome, Anna
and thanks for the post. True, Pearl Harbor is a military base. But Nanking? The character of the Pacific war becam ever more merciless as it went on, and before long Americans lost all reserve about killing the enemy wherever found. But it was something we learned from experience, not something we naturally turned to. Likewise, the slaughter of civilians from the air, horrivble as it is, was something introduced into the war by.....Germany and Japan.
And for RGR: any guess how much blood was transfused into 10th Army soldiers during the roughly one-month fight for Okinawa? That's just the blood given those who made it as far as the aid station, not the total that was spilled. A guess?
It was TEN THOUSAND GALLONS.
You seem to be able to read only the left pages of the history books.
and thanks for the post. True, Pearl Harbor is a military base. But Nanking? The character of the Pacific war becam ever more merciless as it went on, and before long Americans lost all reserve about killing the enemy wherever found. But it was something we learned from experience, not something we naturally turned to. Likewise, the slaughter of civilians from the air, horrivble as it is, was something introduced into the war by.....Germany and Japan.
And for RGR: any guess how much blood was transfused into 10th Army soldiers during the roughly one-month fight for Okinawa? That's just the blood given those who made it as far as the aid station, not the total that was spilled. A guess?
It was TEN THOUSAND GALLONS.
You seem to be able to read only the left pages of the history books.
On the subject of Nanking and Hiroshima (or Dresden). Recently I read the excellent 'On Killing' by Lt Col Grossman. In it he discusses Dresden relative to the Syrian (I think) destruction of Babylon. Grossman's premise is about the 'up close and personal' nature of a kill making it much more psychologically difficult to do and thus more shocking when performed unnecessarily. The Syrians put 10,000 men, women and children to the sword and tore down the city by hand. This means that 10,000 people looked in the eyes of their assailants and died at the very hand of another human being. Grossman argues that this makes the sacking of Babylon much worse than the firebombing of Dresden. He makes an interesting point.
I haven't got my copy of 'A moral history of the twentieth century' to hand, was it Okinawa where several thousand military personnel committed suicide in a naval tunnel complex rather than surrender?
I haven't got my copy of 'A moral history of the twentieth century' to hand, was it Okinawa where several thousand military personnel committed suicide in a naval tunnel complex rather than surrender?
Baba Louie
Member
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Anna G. Welcome to THR.
Atrocities against civilians abounded during that timeframe Anna.
Coventry
Nanking
London
Poland
Russia
Dresden
Tokyo
Berlin
Total War.
Ain't saying it was good or right, just saying it WAS and it DID happen.
War SUX. Tho' I would think that being ruled by Tyrants who murder unarmed innocents just because it's Tuesday, sux a lot more.
edited to add... The US didn't start this nonsense of civilians dying by the thousands... but we did seem to stop it... as horrible as it was. And no one's hands were clean as a result.
Atrocities against civilians abounded during that timeframe Anna.
Coventry
Nanking
London
Poland
Russia
Dresden
Tokyo
Berlin
Total War.
Ain't saying it was good or right, just saying it WAS and it DID happen.
War SUX. Tho' I would think that being ruled by Tyrants who murder unarmed innocents just because it's Tuesday, sux a lot more.
edited to add... The US didn't start this nonsense of civilians dying by the thousands... but we did seem to stop it... as horrible as it was. And no one's hands were clean as a result.
Eskimo Jim
Member
Anna,
Welcome to the forum.
You make a good point about killing civilians in war on purpose is wrong. (someone wanted a good point on the other side recognized, there you go)
What strategy do you think should be utilized against a warring nation's industrial complex? For example, if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the locations of munitions and armament factories, should the Allies have bombed the factories which employ civilian workers?
I believe that both Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the locations of factories that were producing war material for Japan. I also believe that this makes them a legitimate target for military strikes.
-Jim
Welcome to the forum.
You make a good point about killing civilians in war on purpose is wrong. (someone wanted a good point on the other side recognized, there you go)
What strategy do you think should be utilized against a warring nation's industrial complex? For example, if Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the locations of munitions and armament factories, should the Allies have bombed the factories which employ civilian workers?
I believe that both Nagasaki and Hiroshima were the locations of factories that were producing war material for Japan. I also believe that this makes them a legitimate target for military strikes.
-Jim
StuporDave
Member
If you were Japanese, Japanese lives were worth more than American lives.
If you were German, German lives were worth more than allied lives.
If you were British (or American, for that matter), British lives were worth more than German lives.
And I will say, without a doubt, that my life is worth a hundred times more than the person's who is trying to kill me. No matter who it is.
Dave
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Baba Louie
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Eskimo Jim,
I read that both of the Atomic targets were selected from a list of relatively undamaged cities left in Japan and that in fact Nagasaki was selected due to the fact that Kyoto was socked in and was a secondary target. Paul Tibbets book Flight of the Enola Gay I think it was.
I read that both of the Atomic targets were selected from a list of relatively undamaged cities left in Japan and that in fact Nagasaki was selected due to the fact that Kyoto was socked in and was a secondary target. Paul Tibbets book Flight of the Enola Gay I think it was.
HankB
Member
Well, we knew about Jap atrocities in the China, the Bataan death march was known, as were other atrocities in the Philippines. The Jap emperor was - quite literally - worshipped as GOD, and we'd been suffering heavy casualties in kamikazi suicide attacks. Add in Pearl Harbor, and you'll see we had absolutely NO reason to assume the Japs were even rational, let alone reasonable. Hiroshima was a reasonable response to an unreasonable situation.
My father and two uncles all had lots to say about the Red Cross - all bad. I believe your father's story 100%.
I don't disagree HankB, as I have said I don't see a major difference between Hiroshima and Dresden apart from the word 'atomic'. I just feel a lot of hindsight is brought in to this argument, and hindsight needs to be used wisely as per my first post in this thread.
Eskimo Jim
Member
Baba Louie,
You're right about Nagasaki or Hiroshima was a secondary target. It could very well have been Nagasaki.
I've never pursued learning much about the decision to drop the bomb on Japan during WWII. To use a phrase that I"m not fond of from a very good author however it is very appropriate for this topic. "to those that know, no explanation is necessary. For those that don't know, no explanation will suffice".
Stupor Dave, you summed that up very well. I agree that my life is worth 100 times the life of anyone trying to kill me whether they be German, Italian, Japanese, Iraqi, American, red, blue, green, yellow, christian, jewish, muslim, athiest, etc.
-Jim
You're right about Nagasaki or Hiroshima was a secondary target. It could very well have been Nagasaki.
I've never pursued learning much about the decision to drop the bomb on Japan during WWII. To use a phrase that I"m not fond of from a very good author however it is very appropriate for this topic. "to those that know, no explanation is necessary. For those that don't know, no explanation will suffice".
Stupor Dave, you summed that up very well. I agree that my life is worth 100 times the life of anyone trying to kill me whether they be German, Italian, Japanese, Iraqi, American, red, blue, green, yellow, christian, jewish, muslim, athiest, etc.
-Jim
When I was about 10, (I'm 50 now) I knew a college professor in my home town. He was visiting my grandfather one day when I noticed a terrible scar on his right forearm. I asked the professor what caused it. He got a funny look in his eye and said "A Jap stuck me with a bayonette." Since I didn't know any better I asked him "Why?" He said " Because my friend was thirsty." Even then I knew better than to push the issue. Later my grandfather told me the professor had survived the Bataan Death March. Unfortunately the professor passed away several years ago. I'd be really interested in hearing his point of view on the use of the A-bomb. All our arguments are hypothetical and abstract. We don't have his scars.
Selfdfenz
Member
Welcome Anna,
As long as there are civilians, they will be casualties in time of War.
Many of our men at Pearl were drafted unless I am mistaken so they were not there necessarily by their own choice. In any case, Japanese criminal acts against civilians are well documented.
I'm sure the Germans knew they were circling the drain near the end of the European fighting but they fought to the end. They German people would probably have loved to have stopped fighting but there was that pesty government run by a man named Hitler that compelled them to go forward (or be shot) so they went forward with old men and children. The Japanese would have done like-wise.
Some in our government may have know or at least thought the Japanese might attack but human nature directed them to think, "They will never do it"
I think we can see from 9/11 that history repeats itself.
S-
As long as there are civilians, they will be casualties in time of War.
Many of our men at Pearl were drafted unless I am mistaken so they were not there necessarily by their own choice. In any case, Japanese criminal acts against civilians are well documented.
I'm sure the Germans knew they were circling the drain near the end of the European fighting but they fought to the end. They German people would probably have loved to have stopped fighting but there was that pesty government run by a man named Hitler that compelled them to go forward (or be shot) so they went forward with old men and children. The Japanese would have done like-wise.
Some in our government may have know or at least thought the Japanese might attack but human nature directed them to think, "They will never do it"
I think we can see from 9/11 that history repeats itself.
S-
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