Oh no!...PGO!

[Leadhead]

Dave,
Please right up a short and simple Highroad Sticky on this topic (PGO) and stick it up top so that in the future we can avoid this circular trip down the toilet by simply linking to the sticky....

I've seen the one you mention but if I recall it's part of a larger piece and not just about PGO....

 

[Leadhead]

Thanks Dave ! I found it,
It's a bit long though...... could it not be simplified?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

 

[fireside44]

Do you have proof to back that up?

Yeah, your post right here. You can't see it because you are busy with your wonderful "fact" based tirades as to how lousy PGO shotguns are. We get it already.

After some discussion as to whether chopping an old shotgun is a good idea or not in the thread "Replica Gangster Shotgun", Moderator Dave McCracken (the guy who initially said "you shouldn't have done that" post #3) finally flies his true colors after the OP says:

"For the people turned off by this: People that enjoy gangster history and gangster lore like I do like things such as this. It's FUN."

The OP's only remark about function prior to the tirade was "Luckily I'm used to shooting from the hip. I was hitting things just fine with it this weekend."

Note he said "fun", a concept you are showing your failure to grasp.

So being the high road guys you are claiming the pistol grip hate crew are, Mr. McCracken then challenges our OP to a duel:

"You pick the COF, distance and ammo. We'll shoot for score, time decides ties though there will not be any.I'm 63 and arthritic as heck. However, I can shoot some."

"Results will be published here for all to see. In over 10 years, I've not had any takers."

"Talk's cheap. Let's see some one walk the walk."

Well Dave, most of us enjoy shooting to much to bother with a crusty old humbug like you wrecking our day at the range with your less than high road negativity.

And to add insult to injury, mods lock the thread after they started what amounted to a trolling session in what was otherwise a really cool and fun thread.

Mods, Put a big sticky at the top that all the Nebs can read so they understand that PGO is not the best choice for most and then let the rest of us discurs PGO's once and a while focusing on the positive aspects (limited as they may be) instead of the negatives....

I second this.

Enough pissing on people's parades already.

 

[HB]

Mods, please close this thread. This is ridiculous and everybody is getting a stick up their bum about something really really stupid.

PGOs are fun and can be effective enough. A regular stock is almost always more effective. Nobody even said they were perfect, nobody should say they are worthless.


HB

 

[Nushif]

Congratulations. Let's LOCK yet another thread after the crew dogpiles some poor schmuck.
That'll solve the problem. Right?

 

[ugaarguy]

Well Dave, most of us enjoy shooting to much to bother with a crusty old humbug like you wrecking our day at the range with your less than high road negativity.

I've Never seen Dave McC criticize a strictly fun PGO shotgun. He will criticize the thought that PGO shotguns are a good choice for self defence. Why? you wonder. If you'll look into his post history & back ground, you'll see that he was a shotgun instructor in the Federal Prison system for years - that included teaching PGO shotgun. Dave's dealt, face to face, with some of the most evil and violent people on earth. He doesn't want you getting hurt by one of these people because you chose an inferior tool with which to defend yourself. Call him a crusty old humbug if you want, but he actually does care, and is trying to pass on his wisdom.

 

[Rshooter]

Sigh......I get tired of how quickly a PGO thread deteriorates. Honestly I respect Dave's opinion. I just like my one topfolder, Remington police model no less. I do believe one of the other mods are a bit quick to help one of these threads turn though.

 

[Leadhead]

Well I just re-read through the old post that is stickied......brings back some memories!

It's way to long and contains a lot of drival.

It seems the discussion has not really evolved much.

If the Mod's can't write a short sticky I will do it right now,

Title, Warning about Pistol Grip Only Shotguns (PGO)

Pistol Grip Only Shotguns are not the best choice for home defense and most people are better off with a full stocked gun.

Please don't consider buying a PGO for your one and only means of home defense!


Stay safe and have fun.

 

[fireside44]

He doesn't want you getting hurt by one of these people because you chose an inferior tool with which to defend yourself.

Yeah, except the thread wasn't about choosing an inferior tool, but rather making a fun gun to mess around with for kicks. The thread was "Replica Gangster Shotgun" which had nothing to do with defensive shotgunning until Dave made it so.

Call him a crusty old humbug if you want, but he actually does care, and is trying to pass on his wisdom.

His methods alienate THR members.

 

[Zak Smith]

The old thread was locked because of how it evolved. Now its "virus" has infected this thread. How about we don't turn this thread into that one? There is also, perhaps, a better venue for personal criticism of Dave than right here.

 

[General Geoff]

You seemingly have access to the internet try google when people use words you don't know .

It is this

Just wanted to point out: Strictly speaking, that is a flail, not a morning star. A morning star is a spiked mace (no chain).

 

[Nushif]

If by "infected" you mean every last PGO thread ending up like this you're right.
I somehow doubt though that the blame lies with either the OP or the posters that have a non bolded name. The issue is that we have an untouchable right now who is dominating the discussion and whose authority on this subject is absolutely complete and unquestionable.

 

[Zak Smith]

The issue is that we have an untouchable right now who is dominating the discussion and whose authority on this subject is absolutely complete and unquestionable.

Dave is the expert and he is right on the issue of PGOs. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that doesn't mean their opinion is worth the same, or is "equally right."

 

[fireside44]

The old thread was locked because of how it evolved. Now its "virus" has infected this thread.

Again, because the mods have chosen to air their anti PGO laundry in here once again instead of letting members enjoy discussion amongst themselves. If you don't like PGO, don't post on PGO threads. Pretty simple really.

So Moderator Justin asks for evidence, I give it to him, and you come in and say "perhaps there is a better venue". You are right, there is, you, as a mod could say something in private to change it but as usual, you cast the blame on the forum members for a problem mods have helped to create.

I do think it's kind of funny that this is more or less a really balanced and well run forum unless talk turns to PGO shotguns. Such discussions are verboten and are subject to thread lock without notice.

I'm thinking I might go buy a PGO shotgun just cause I know how much it burns some of you up. Or maybe take my inherited Superposed and turn it into a "tactical" pistol grip replete with flashlight, bayonet, laser, and a few feet of picatinny rail. That ought to get em going.

 

[Nushif]

Ah. You caught me before I could clarify.

He may be an expert. But no amount of expertise justifies his repeated behavior the moment PGO is mentioned.

 

[Zak Smith]

Justin and I don't have "anti PGO laundry." I don't - and I doubt if he - thinks about them much at all other than when foolish claims are made about them, that need to be refuted.

Justin's posts here do not fall under that "proof" ("Yeah, your post right here."). In this thread, the argument has been attacked, not any person (other than Dave).

The full quote from Dave in the other thread was much more measured than the excerpt you posted in here. Dave didn't say "I'm challenging you to a duel to prove I am the best" -- he said that he thought it was unfortunately to have irrevocably modified an old, solid, historical (if cheap) shotgun, that PGOs were much less useful, and that in support of the last point, it could be proven. Sometimes when you post in public you get unsolicited opinions. That you disagree with a correction, or an unsolicited opinion, does not make what they posted low road behavior, provided they did it in a factual and impersonal way, addressing the argument, not the person.

 

[Nushif]

Well snap. The Judge hath spoken.

I guess we should all apologize to poor Dave now since it was ruled that you know... we're just peons who have no ground to stand on in comparison to the Lord of this board.
I stand humbled before your combined might and enlightenment.

 

[rbernie]

That kind of petulant and childish attitude is inappropriate and certainly not on The High Road.

The High Road does not exist to provide external validation for anyone's purchases, ideas, or opinions. It exists to foster discussion, with an eye towards being a respected resource for verifiable data.

If you want to engage in debate on THR, then you will be expected to post data that can be overlaid against other folk's data. If you are unwilling or incapable of doing that, then it would probably be best to not engage in that debate.

 

[Zak Smith]

Not at all. By all means post whatever quotes, facts, and arguments you want to support your points. That's how we get the best answers. I'm not making a judgment or pronouncement-- but I don't think the quote you posted supports the claim of non-THR comments either. But I think discussing the other thread in this one is off the point.

 

[fireside44]

Justin and I don't have "anti PGO laundry." I don't - and I doubt if he - thinks about them much at all other than when foolish claims are made about them, that need to be refuted.

Yeah, but you have been enabling McCracken, who does.

Justin's posts here do not fall under that "proof" ("Yeah, your post right here.").

Sounds like you skimmed my post. I made clear examples of a prior thread where Dave came on a little too strong and a little too authoritative. No one is denying his knowledge, it's his habit of being overly verbally anti PGO on any PGO thread even those strictly related to enjoyment or recreation.

The full quote from Dave in the other thread was much more measured than the excerpt you posted in here.

Yeah, a lengthy rant about the inherent disadvantages of PGO shotguns in a thread about a guy recreating vintage 1920's and 30's gangster weapons. It was off topic at best.

It's the equivalent of someone ranting in a muzzleloader forum about how useless a muzzleloader is compared to a breech loading rifle. Everyone gets that here and if they don't they are asking about it.

Those types of threads is where Dave's knowledge is handy, not ripping on someone's creation and saying "wish you wouldn't have done that" (post #3) and then going on to berate the performance of PGO shotguns. It's just not very sporting of him.

That you disagree with a correction, or an unsolicited opinion, does not make what they posted low road behavior, provided they did it in a factual and impersonal way, addressing the argument, not the person.

Except it's not just me, it's many here who would like to have a discussion about PGO outside of the confines of performance and utility. If you allow someone to continually deny others the fun and recreation aspect of firearms you alienate people.

 

[Nushif]

Then please initiate the proper actions now.

 

[Zak Smith]

Yeah, but you have been enabling McCracken, who does.

Dave's posts to this thread have been along the exact lines that Justin's and mine have been, totally on topic once it was claimed that the PGO in the video demonstrated accuracy and speed. Discounting an expert with strong opinions because he has strong opinions is a type of logical fallacy.

 

[fireside44]

Dave's posts to this thread have been along the exact lines that Justin's and mine have been, totally on topic once it was claimed that the PGO in the video demonstrated accuracy and speed. Discounting an expert with strong opinions because he has strong opinions is a type of logical fallacy.

Well, I won't hold you up any further.

Good day to you.

 

[ArmedBear]

"Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Some fictitious Scot.

 

[Justin]

Yeah, your post right here. You can't see it because you are busy with your wonderful "fact" based tirades as to how lousy PGO shotguns are. We get it already.

Failure to actually link to a post of mine where I've engaged in behavior that is below the standards set for THR pretty much tells me all I need to know.

That said, I took Jorg's cartoon in the context in which it was meant, as a joke. That someone could actually get offended by something so obviously meant to bring some levity to a thread is really kind of just beyond me.

As for the other thread that Dave locked, I don't know that I took part in that thread. I certainly don't recall reading it, but I have faith in Dave's abilities with a shotgun as well as his being an honest and forthright moderator.

Note he said "fun", a concept you are showing your failure to grasp.

I'm a moderator. Hating fun is a requirement of the job.

To rebut your point, perhaps you ought to re-read this thread and note the multiple posts where I've noted that PGO shotguns can, be fun.