Oh yes, another PGO thread!

[Mossberg535]

bleachcola....
Is your gun loaded ? Does it hit a target when you aim at something ? Do you use big enough shot to do sufficient damage to an intruder if you have to shoot ?
CAN you hit a target the size of a cantelope consistently within 10 yards ?

If the answer to all these was 'yes', then dont worry about it.
You have a gun that CAN do the job that YOU are comfortable with and that is all that matters.

 

[bleachcola]

Dave McCracken, before I even read what your challenge is I've already stated in prior posts that whatever point you are trying to make, it's correct. But how does that challenge or point directly relate to me defending my home? It doesn't. How does it address my comfort level in maneuvering through my home with a weapon raised up to my shoulder? How does it disprove my ability to hit a man sized target inside my house? It does neither of the above. However it does show the tactical advantages of a butt stock for general police/military work. That's great, but it's not my specific case scenario. I am most comfortable using my PGO shotgun in certain scenarios relating to a home invasion. For scenarios that call for even more speed and even more accuracy I'll use my 1911.

 

[Mossberg535]

Does the challenge attempt to prove or disprove whether I can hit a home invaders inside of my house? If not, then what is the point. I say I can. If someone wants to prove me wrong then I challenge them to break into my home one night and try to harm me before I shoot them with it. That's all I'm trying to do with my setup. I'm not trying to tout the PGO superiority or anything of the sort.

I wouldnt worry about it.
There are a lot of folks who wouldnt use a handgun over a shotgun for HD, but WHO carries their shotgun around the house ?
When the bad guys break in guys who make fun of someone who uses a handgun for HD will be scrambling for their shotgun in another room while the guy with the revolver just reaches into his pocket.
Point is it doesnt matter what everyone else thinks about YOUR situation.
If you have a gun that YOU are comfortable with and it is able to do the job, then its all just opinions....and you know what they say about those...

 

[bleachcola]

Mossberg535, yes to all of the above. Thank you for recognizing the existence of personal preference and comfort.

 

[bleachcola]

But seriously, what does that challenge prove? That a highly trained professional with a butt stock can knock down some targets at the range quicker than I can with a PGO? If I put the butt stock on my shotgun he'd probably still beat me. What point does that prove against my personal use of a PGO for my personal situation that involves only myself and someone trying to break into my home? If somebody really has to see a challenge here then there's only one challenge that would make or break my case. Somebody try to break into my house while I shoot at them. That is the only thing that can prove or disprove my personal preference. It's a ridiculous challenge but the only proper one. So challenges just won't cut it here. I say I can do it. If somebody wants to say I can't then step up to the plate and try to break in. Talk is cheap after all, remember.

 

[Mossberg535]

Mossberg535, yes to all of the above. Thank you for recognizing the existence of personal preference and comfort.

Tell ya what.
I bought a 357 snubnose for HD and you wouldnt believe the harassement I got over that one on another forum a few years ago.
"too much gun", "not enough gun", "you wont be able to control it"....blah, blah blah.

I practiced with that gun pretty much every day and I guarantee that I could put a hole in a mans head within 10 yards 90% of the time.
That was the hardest kicking little revolver Ive ever shoot, for sure.
I had a black lab that was into my rabbits one night, late...3 am or so. I went outside with that revolver and he had dragged one of the cages out of my barn and was hopping all around trying to get the rabbit out of the cage.
I shot him dead thru the torso at about 60 feet...one shot....with my revolver.
I shot a cat even further away with my 22 revolver who was into my rabbit run.
I practiced every day with those guns and had no trouble drawing them and shooting small targets very easily within a decent range.
And the ENTIRE time Im on the internet hearing someone jab me about my bad choice in buying a 357 snubby for HD.

HD is about having a gun that YOU can shoot in a jam and hit something and that YOU are comfortable with.
I have a shotgun that Im not comfortable with, but its a great gun that someone else might love.
Should I use it just because someone else does and loves it ?
Nope.
I should use what I am comfortable with and can use effectively.
If thats a 12 gauge with a pistol grip, then so be it.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I don't break into people's homes. I do teach people how to deal with people who do and what hardware decisions to make to complement the essential software.

The challenge shows that PGO advocates really are better at talk than action.

But let's list a few things.

You have no training beyond some silohuette practice at your friendly local range.

You are advocating a choice of weaponry that no professional firearm instructor does, or even teaches, to my knowledge.

You are stating that you are right and all the people that get regularly into harm's way and do not tote PGOs are wrong.

You haven't shot any COFs with your PGO and a standard shotgun and compared the results.

BTW,Pop Quiz. What's a COF?

And, despite the fact that people with accumulated CENTURIES of shotgun experience are telling you gently that there are better choices, you persevere.

Got to give you credit for stubborn.

FYI, there's maybe 30 present and past members of this BB I've met face to face at the range. I doubt any of them think I;m overstating my level of experience, training and proficiency.

The ball is still in your court...

 

[sm]

Clint Smith was quoted and links to his video's about shotguns not long ago.
You have to know how to run the gun you have - Clint

Another trainer shares more truth:
I will not be at your gunfight. - Awerbuck


Teh Intrawebz is faster communication tool that is global.

Personally, as a responsible firearm owner, will not subscribe to folks that do not know, have not been parented, mentored or exposed to firearms, including shotguns, getting started off on the wrong foot!

I am not going to let this happen. I won't.
I made promises to not only my Mentors, also to myself.

My role, one I sorta inherited and one I choose to do, is to pass forward correct basic fundamentals.

If one chooses to shoot clays, then go see Will Fennell.
If you want to learn to shoot 3 Gun, go see Larry Correia.
Trap , go see Dave McCracken.
Defensive Shotguns, go see Clint Smith, Awerbuck or someone.

If you are in the Military, you will be issued what you will be issued. If your job is kicking doors, then you will learn to kick doors.

You join a Police Agency, you will be issued what you are issued, trained and expected to qualify and use that shotgun.
I don't care if you like , don't like, or wish your Dept had another make , model or config, you are going to use the issued one, and you had better know that gun, and you had better hope other officers know that issued shotgun too.

It might your butt that needs saving one night.

Don't post statements on this forum, or any other forum with or without pictures that "This" is the "Ultimate Extreme".

Not on my watch.

I am not going to have some person see and read that post and get off on the wrong foot.
I can't and I won't.

Then why do you have a kids single shot shotgun?

1. Because I want to, and I can.
2. My assisting tool.

I am told Awerbuck uses a "Red Gun".

I use a youth single shot, and most of the time it is .410.
I also use a Marlin 60 stock , kid sized, with PVC tubing for a barrel.

Folks only so tall and bigger are whom I choose to assist.
Kids, single ladies, single moms, physically limited and elderly are my thing.
Sure, some males, married couples and all are included, still that first group, is "my" chosen bunch to assist. I have my personal reasons.

A kid has a mat, with foot prints their smaller feet fit into. Foot position.
They "crack" that weak knee, and all the time practicing safe rules, mount that gun to face.

Oh man! That kid was so excited they had a "shotgun my size!" and it might look stupid and ugly, but that .22 rifle stock with a PVC barrel is the most beautiful thing to a kid.
Watching them as "I can do it, watch me" just does something to me.

BBGuns with the sights removed and shooting ping pong balls...
Is another thing I do...

Sheesh, there are BBGuns and these wittle kids guns, with more wear marks than many guns posted on teh Intrawebz!

So I can assist, and I have that kids single shot showing, demonstrating things.
I can use it on a person only "this tall" to someone "that tall".

Heck I do this with cane or part of a broomstick too.

I do use a skeet field , a private "pasture field" as a teaching tool for more serious shotgun use, and some portable traps as well.

Folks "think" Dave McC, Lee Lapin, Will Fennell, Larry Correia and others do not agree with me...
They might be surprised.
It might blow some minds that some of these wittle kids got bigger and took a defensive class and showed up with bone stock 1100, Beretta 303, or something too.
Not once, never , ever has a instructor, trainer, ever looked down on one of these folks.

These kids, ladies, whomever show up and :
"I am here with a willingness to learn. All I have is this 1100 in 20 ga. Steve and I tried a bunch of different guns, and this one fit me, and I could afford it.
I first wanted to learn to shoot, to go dove hunting, then shoot some skeet.
Now I want to learn defensive stuff.
So I am hear to learn, and try some other guns for fit and listen to whatever you suggest"

They learn to run what they have.
Heck some have been told to do nothing more, than stick a slug barrel on a 1100 20 ga, and use that.
Others try before they buy, and not only write down dimensions some even trace the stock and take pictures with rulers.

If...If the person has a job description that says they have to use something, such as PGO, they learn to run that.

My deal is, learn the correct basic fundamentals, and that is my role, to harp, fuss, and defend this position.

Again, nobody here has ever been present when I was in serious situation.
I was not there when folks I knew, shot with, and assisted with, had one either.

I'll be darned if I stand for someone "telling" folks what is the Ultimate!


Steve

 

[bleachcola]

Plan B for the night has been developed, so I'm out again. I'll be back tomorrow to see if anyone wants to take my challenge. Perhaps we can come up with some proper rules and such like in Dave's challenge. If someone thinks I can't defend my home with my PGO then maybe someone will step up to the plate and prove me wrong. Any takers? Come on now. Talk is cheap fellas. Ball is in your court.

 

[Dave McCracken]

The challenge proves you're HANDICAPPING yourself at a time when any sane individual would be going for any advantage.

If a standard stock on a shotgun means better hits faster, why would you deliberately seek a lesser choice?

In an HD Crisis/AS scenario, I may choose to engage from the hip. I know how, and the standard stock hinders me not with proper technique. But, I'm way more likely to shoot from the shoulder and more likely to hit and hit faster. Time yourself both ways. You have a surprise coming.

If felons broke into both our houses at the same time, the one here would be neutralized faster.

And, what if the situation requires going outside? Think NOLA, post Katrina. A standard stock on a shotgun loaded with slug or buck can be a real comfort when defending not your house but your community.

A regular shotgun is an awesome close range weapon. A PGO is less so.

It's past midnight, I'm going to bed....

 

[sm]

bleachcola wrote:
Any takers? Come on now. Talk is cheap fellas. Ball is in your court.

You are in FL.
Denny is in FL sometimes, Rich is there...and Rich really likes challenges. *yep*

If Rich hears about this, this could get real interesting and fast!

 

[plexreticle]

Dave's challenge sounds like fun. If anything just to go burn some ammo and learn something in the process.

 

[Dave McCracken]

If it happens, Steve, I hope Rich or Denny get a video......

 

[rantingredneck]

Video??? How bout a THR field trip instead??

 

[Jeff F]

The only PGO shotguns I have ever seen our local LE with are breaching shotguns. And I have seen short barreled folding stock shotguns on some of the motorcycle officers rides. Specialized applications.

 

[Regolith]

The only PGO shotguns I have ever seen our local LE with are breaching shotguns. And I have seen short barreled folding stock shotguns on some of the motorcycle officers rides. Specialized applications.

Yeah, I saw a news video some time back that showed a soldier using a PGO for breaching. As soon as the door was blown open, he moved back to let the rest of the team go by, then slung his PGO and shouldered his M4 as he followed them in.

 

[Correia]

Yeah, what the hell do all of you guys with tens of thousands of accumulated hours of training, competition, and actual gun fights know! Bunch of big meanies.

bleachcola, just because every single professional instructor, professional shooter, real competitor, SWAT team, bonafide expert, and shotgun fanatic disagrees with you, I'm sure you're like totally right, and you're personal PGO shotgun is the most awesomest thing evar!

Sure, you're disagreeing with people who shoot like 20,000 rounds a year in practice, and get paid good money to shoot, but they're just being pricks. Because, you know, what could they possibly know? You've screwed around at the range, while under zero stress, on a bright sunshiny day, shooting a piece of cardboard. That certainly puts you on the same plane as somebody like Dave McCracken (the big jerk) who's taught like thousands of people how to actually, you know, kill people with shotguns.

I'm no warrior. But back when I was competing really hard, I was .05 seconds off the fastest time in the world on a Dozier drill with a pump shotgun. I shot a lot of rounds through a pump shotgun. I would shoot half a case of shells in one stage of a 10 stage match. I'm pretty sure that if the PGO could be shot, by anybody, anywhere, with any sort of actual speed, I might have seen maybe one win something, somewhere, at some point in time. But I must have not been paying attention. Heck, 3gun competition is just a game where we use shotguns in the most realistic manner of any of the shotgun games. I'm sure PGO's will be taking the country by storm anytime now.

Now, all these big meanies are giving you grief. They've got this weird belief that the PGO is a handicap for actual self-defense use. It is harder to hit with, slower to utilize, doesn't control recoil, sucks on split times (which determines the speed you can get follow up shots, but I'm sure your vast knowledge already knew that), has a lousy shooter interface, terrible fit, and most of all, it breeds this false sense of confidence, that you will somehow be able to move faster or be more maneuverable, (even though the guys that actually, you know, move with weapons for a living all have stocks on theirs, because actual usage shows that the PGO isn't any more maneuverble than a stocked weapon).

Sure, you can use a PGO and successfully defend your house, they'll say. Doesn't mean it isn't stupid. I can also successfully defend my house with a .410 derringer, a pointy stick, or a Lorcin .380. Doesn't mean that anybody with two spare brain cells is going to pick those as their first choice. (and by the way, your super-dooper superior hand-eye coordination will absolutely turn to crap as soon as the adrenalin is pounding through your system, your hands are shaking, your fine motor skills go to hell while your brute stregth goes up, your vision tunnels, and your movements are jerky and erratic, 'cause that's exactly when I want to count on my "hand eye coordination"!)

See, those shotgun nuts are just jerks!

Well, anyway, I'm going to go take my Honda Civic down to the NASCAR race now. It worked just fine for me while I drove it around the Walmart parking lot, so I'll like totally win. And if I'm wrong, what's the worst that could happen?

So hang in there, bleachcola. Educate those interweb bullies!

 

[Okiecruffler]

I was just wondering, does anyone ever use sarcasm on this board? Just wondering.

 

[Correia]

Never!

Why, just the other day I was playing golf with Tiger Woods. He was trying to tell me which club to use, but I was all like, yeah, whatever, dude...

 

[sm]

I was just wondering, does anyone ever use sarcasm on this board? Just wondering.

Nah...
Larry just gets that way when his kids getg to fussing being out of cheese dip and the guys at the shop hide his M&Ms.

He will be all right.


Larry,
Since you are in a good mood and all...
Did you call Saiga and see if'n they would do a wood-n-blue one in 28 gauge with the option for "da-switch" and drum?

Larry drives the Honda.
I ride shotgun.
I betcha nobody passes us on the draft!

*i'm in trouble again ain't i *

 

[rantingredneck]

Larry drives the Honda.
I ride shotgun.
I betcha nobody passes us on the draft!

OK, I just spit diet pepsi on my keyboard.

 

[bleachcola]

I don't break into people's homes. I do teach people how to deal with people who do and what hardware decisions to make to complement the essential software.

The challenge shows that PGO advocates really are better at talk than action.

The challenge shows nothing of the sort. Just bc I won't drop what I'm doing in my life to go engage in a competition with folks from the internet means that I can't defend my home with a PGO? How does that make any sense? My challenge makes sense though. If you don't think I can defend my home with my PGO then try to break in. I promise not to call the cops if you won't.

But let's list a few things.

You have no training beyond some silohuette practice at your friendly local range.

You are advocating a choice of weaponry that no professional firearm instructor does, or even teaches, to my knowledge.

You are stating that you are right and all the people that get regularly into harm's way and do not tote PGOs are wrong.

You haven't shot any COFs with your PGO and a standard shotgun and compared the results.

BTW,Pop Quiz. What's a COF?

And, despite the fact that people with accumulated CENTURIES of shotgun experience are telling you gently that there are better choices, you persevere.

Got to give you credit for stubborn.

• Yes, my training is minimal in comparison to many on this board. Does that take away my ability to defend my home? No. Do I have more training and firearm experience than 90-something percent of home defenders with shotguns? Probably. Since I was old enough to handle a 12g I've been going out to the range doing all the typical 12g stuff. When I got older and bigger I started playing around with pistol grips. I found out that I can reliably shoot targets from the hip when they are within home defense ranges. Furthermore it makes me feel more comfortable knowing that I have the gun secure by my side instead of sticking far out in front of me in the event that I'm navigating my home. That is all.
• Where did I ever advocate the use of PGO's for others? Where did I ever bash people who carry full butt stocks? I have been very clear on numerous occasions that I am talking about my personal setup for my home defense. I really have no idea how I can be more clear about that. I have written out that point about a dozen times now. I stated in the beginning, I've stated it throughout, and now I'm stating it again. The one thing that I did bash butt stock nazis for was their claims that you can't aim and hit targets from the hip. That's complete nonsense. I do it just about every weekend. Just bc they can't do it doesn't mean that nobody else can.
• COF is the course of fire. Yes, I know what it is. My brother is a cop and does those sort of things and likes to brag occasionally. No, I don't engage in competitions or proper group training sessions other than at the skeet range. I do use a butt stock with skeet if you makes you happy though. But that's bc skeet don't break into my home.
• Yes, people with centuries of experience advocate butt stocks. I've said numerous times already that I know that and I agree with them bc they are teaching the general public. However, I am not the general public. Those teachers know nothing about me or my home or how I plan on defending it. They don't know what I am personally comfortable with. If it really agitates me to have a full butt stocked shotgun sticking out in front of my body in a home defense situation, would they really force me to continue doing that? What happened to the software vs hardware thing you guys chime about? If my brain is distracted bc of something that makes me uncomfortable then I might as well just have a pea shooter. But instead, I'd rather have a tool that can get the job done (though not the most "tactically sound") while leaving my brain in the fight. If the instructor thinks that's a poor decision then I wouldn't trust their training anyway.

FYI, there's maybe 30 present and past members of this BB I've met face to face at the range. I doubt any of them think I;m overstating my level of experience, training and proficiency.

The ball is still in your court...

I don't doubt your experience, nor am I trying to state you are wrong in general. I'm just saying that you are wrong if you think I can't defend my home with my firearms. So what's the best thing for me to do? Perhaps take a real training course and try to overcome my discomfort with having something extending from my body like that. As of now, it doesn't feel natural for me to do that in enclosed spaces. In an open field or out on the town, sure. But just not in my home. I have enough experience with my PGO to where it feels like an extension of my body if I were using it in CQB. It's what I'm comfortable with so for the time being it is what I'll use.

 

[Guns and more]

I can't take this any more! If you don't want a PG, don't get one. If he does, fine.
Why do cops who kick down doors have stocks? Because someone gave them to them. And they never go in alone. And tomorrow they may have them on the hood of their car in the daytime. And they didn't just get awakened in the middle of the night in their underwear.
There's no comparison.

 

[Gord]

But guys, obviously if someone breaks into his house, his Xtreme hand-eye coordination and utter mastery of the art of PG-fu will allow him to rise up out of bed at 2AM and, in one fluid motion like a samurai of old, blow the bad guy's head cleanly off with Just One Shot. There is no possibility that he will miss due to low light, threat movement, adrenalin, having just been startled awake, or being shot at or charged with a knife. The Bad Guy will knock politely and wait, neatly framed by the doorway, until he may be dispatched with a minimum of inconvenience to bleachcola.

Of course, things will never get to that point anyway, because his dogs will alert him to an intruder, and he will be out of bed and halfway across the house with PGO at the ready before the Bad Guy can kick the door in. The possibility of the Bad Guy simply killing the dogs, or retreating to a distance or behind cover that necessitates precision to neutralize him, is simply out of the question.

I sure wish I could preordain all my gunfights like bleachcola can.

 

[bleachcola]

The challenge proves you're HANDICAPPING yourself at a time when any sane individual would be going for any advantage.

If a standard stock on a shotgun means better hits faster, why would you deliberately seek a lesser choice?

In an HD Crisis/AS scenario, I may choose to engage from the hip. I know how, and the standard stock hinders me not with proper technique. But, I'm way more likely to shoot from the shoulder and more likely to hit and hit faster. Time yourself both ways. You have a surprise coming.

If felons broke into both our houses at the same time, the one here would be neutralized faster.

And, what if the situation requires going outside? Think NOLA, post Katrina. A standard stock on a shotgun loaded with slug or buck can be a real comfort when defending not your house but your community.

A regular shotgun is an awesome close range weapon. A PGO is less so.

It's past midnight, I'm going to bed....

I only use the PGO for inside the house. If I had to use a shotgun for fending off folks outside in open spaces then I would use the butt stock. That and the AR and one of the handguns.