Old School .357 Magnum Duty Loads

[Mr. Mosin]

You ales hear about the old .38 Spl 158grn RNL “widow maker”, then the LSWC or full WC, and the LSWCHP, then fancy modern type HP’s; but I’v never really seen discussed old school .357 leadings.... what were they ? I’m talking 30’s through the 60’s; not 80’s/90’s

 

[Lnf Crzr]

If I’m not mistaken- The Genesis and or Original Loading was from Doug Wesson’s Out West hunt in Early 1930s As the introduction of the Cartridge. That was done with a Registered magnum. If memory serves me correct, Phil Sharpe/Ballistic expert and Keith with Others developed and Loaded 250rds ,158gr that supposedly went around 1500fps out of a 8+” S&W. I believe Years later, that load was Pressure tested and was to high. Yet this is from memory so please don’t quote me on this.
However, with Kieth and his Reputation… The introduction of the 357 at that time, the 8+” barrel- I would imagine that seems to be a realistic bit of information. From that, it would seem that the 2400 powder could achieve that FPS back then, and the N frame S&W could harness it. After that the Leo’s and Shorter barrels adapted for carry.

I havnt read about that in many years, So please Inform if need on the accuracy of this ,as I don’t want to site it as correct ,if it is in fact not so.

 

[Alaskamike]

I have no first hand experience, but I think the 125 grain JHP was pretty common. Super-Vel produced a high velocity 110 gr. .357 mag load which was popular maybe in the late 1960s to early 1970s.

I'm certainly no historian, but in the early years, you probably would have had officers carrying cast SWC loads if they carried a .357 mag. Keep in mind that in the 1930s, no police officer would likely have carried a .357 mag revolver since they were priced well out of their reach. However, many probably carried S&W N frame .38 revolvers, usually referred to as .38/44 Heavy Duty. This is what Elmer Keith used to develop his 170 grain SWC bullet design. So in the 1930s through probably the 1950s I would expect that any officer who wanted a revolver capable of more power than the old S&W M&P revolver could stand, would have carried the larger frame .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers. If they carried the larger revolver, then it would make sense that they also loaded them with heavy duty ammo, whether commercial or handloads.

It doesn't fall within your '30s - '60s timeframe, but I do know of one officer here in Alaska in a local PD who carried his own handloads in the 1980s in a S&W model 28. I believe it was a 158 gr cast SWC over 15 gr of 2400.

 

[.38 Special]

The first factory loads were truly hot and leaded quite badly.

Two early solutions to leading were heavy bullets and gaschecks. Elmer Keith was a fan of the former but not of the latter, and preferred the plain base 358429 SWC at 173 grains. His load usually is listed as 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass, for 1400 fps. It's not as hot as the original, but is still right at or somewhat above today's maximums - and despite that, Keith still felt it wasn't much of a cartridge for either hunting or manstopping.

Skeeter Skelton preferred the 358156 SWC GC. His "standard" load was also 13.5 grains of 2400, but either in a .357 case or, with the bullet loaded to its lower crimp groove to maximize capacity, .38 Special cases. In the .357 case, this is still the load (with a hollow point) that I use and carry. Skelton also published a "max" load of 15 grains (15.5 for the slightly lighter HP version of the bullet) for use only in the .357 case. I also consider that one a tad excessive for most guns.

I honestly am not sure exactly when JHPs became popular. I believe it was in the 70s, with Super Vel leading the charge. Prior to that, it appears to me that the lead SWC was generally used for defense, with many proponents of the hollowpoint version. The only jacketed bullet I have seen referenced on a regular basis, prior to the 1970s, was the Speer half-jacket. That one no longer is available, as they sometimes would shed the jacket in bore, resulting in damage to the gun during the next shot.

At any rate, I am sure many other designs were used "back in the day" but those are the ones which seem to come up most often in the older books.

 

[.455_Hunter]

A 158 gr swaged (not cast) lead SWC was the staple .357 load for over 40 years. Nose profile and coatings varied from manufacturer to manufacturer.

 

[GRIZ22]

In the early 70s a 158 swc was the factory load from the major manufacturers. They also made a 158 metalpoint with a lead bullet with a conical metal point.

The only other option was Super Vel with a variety of bullets available. These were very popular with LE. The big boys (WW, RP, etc) recognized the popularity of Super Vel and put them out of business.

 

[JohnKSa]

Solid evidence to support the claims that .357Mag factory loadings have been watered down over the years seems hard to come by. Usually the "evidence" comes in the form of quoting very old velocity claims made before chronographs were ubiquitous and it was easier to get away with advertising "optimistic" velocity figures.

There was an apparent decrease in velocities during the late '70s and early '80s as SAAMI pressured ammo makers to start providing revolver velocities measured in 4" vented test barrels as opposed to the much longer test barrels that had been more commonly used. That could have resulted in velocity claims dropping as much as 300fps in .357Mag even without any change to the ammunition.

Another level of confusion was introduced when SAAMI changed from using CUP to PSI--the CUP limit was 45,000 while the PSI limit is 35,000. Some people, believing that CUP and PSI are similar units, interpreted that as a pressure drop.

The few vintage ammo tests I've seen indicate that the vintage full-power stuff shoots pretty much the same as the full-power modern stuff.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

Thank y’all for teaching me.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

[QUOTE=".38 Special, post: 12079912,

Elmer Keith was a fan of the former but not of the latter, and preferred the plain base 358429 SWC at 173 grains. His load usually is listed as 13.5 grains of 2400 in .38 special brass, for 1400 fps. It's not as hot as the original, but is still right at or somewhat above today's maximums - and despite that, Keith still felt it wasn't much of a cartridge for either hunting or manstopping.

Skeeter Skelton preferred the 358156 SWC GC. His "standard" load was also 13.5 grains[/QUOTE]

A great example of Kieth- In my opinion a Silly one. Who states that a 1400fps 173gr 357 is “Not Sufficient for man or beast”? - When Doug Wesson Killed Grizzly with it, one shot no less from the ammo Kieth assist in developing... Also other big game. He used a 458 for Elk… and Oconner used a 270. He never received the Acknowledgment and wanted to prove his ability with the 44spl/Magnum. A Sour Individual regarding the great 357 mag-

Skeeter- In my opinion had more helpful humble opinions.

This is my Opinion- Dosnt have to be yours Or corrected, yet I’ll discuss it politely with someone.

 

[wcwhitey]

Most of the Super Vel rounds that I have seen were Jacketed Flat Points. Later hollow points showed up. Jacketed hollow points were in their infancy. Lee Juras (spelling?) was pushing the envelope. My Dad had a few boxes, never finished them as it was a flame thrower exhibition out of a 4” K frame. They were excessive. The name has been revived recently.

https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/the-legend-of-super-vel-ammo/137747

 

[Palladan44]

Remington-Peters 125gr Semi Jacketed Hollow Points I believe is one of the loads that was of concern to the Older Smith and Wessons (model 19 mostly) and a steady diet of these is said to cause longevity issues with these guns, forcing cone erosion to name one of them.. LE being the bulk of the market on em back then.
I've seen these same loads as late as a few years ago from Wal Mart re dressed in Rem UMC packaging. According to Dad, these are the same as 40 years ago. Lots of muzzle flash, lots of boom. They blow water jugs into several pieces every time.

 

[Jim Watson]

Elmer Keith worked with .38 High Velocity and overloads but preferred the .44.
Phil Sharpe pushed the .357 Magnum hard and had more or less influence over the specifications, depending on who you ask.
His load data is interesting but his preferred bullet, and the only thing he showed with 2400 in his 1937 book was a 146 gr hollow point. Kind of a cheat not to shoot the 158 gr standard or the 160 and 173 gr Keith bullets with the best powder of the day.

Here is what Glen Fryxell has to say about a similar bullet and similar loads.

"The 358477 HP is a real screamer in the .357 Magnum. For the .357 Magnum I cast the 358477 HP using an alloy with a BHN of about 11. These bullets were sized .358” and lubed with my homemade Moly lube and loaded on top of 15.0 grains of 2400 and sparked with a CCI 550 primer. This 143 grain cast HP load will generate 1600 fps from my 8 3/8” S&W 586 and makes for a flat-shooting and highly explosive varmint load."

So you don't have to settle for 1250 fps, all it takes is a little bit lighter bullet and a good bit longer barrel.

 

[Palladan44]

Popular in the 1990s and 1980s possibly earlier...

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Scallop rem 158gr ?

 

[Palladan44]

Scallop rem 158gr ?

125 gr.

 

[Palladan44]

I think Mr. Dillinger and the gangsters of that era sparked the need for these little guys...

 

[Riomouse911]

I don’t have any really old ones like Palladin44 has, but I do recall my former agency issuing Winchester 110 gr JHP to feed the issued 4” Model 66’s in the 1970’s-1990’s. When I lateraled over there in 1994 carrying my SIG P-226 from my first agency only one veteran sergeant still carried his Model 66.

I don’t have anymore of that Winchester ammo, but buried at the back of my shelf I did find these oldies still with full boxes:

Speer 110 gr JHP:



Remington 125 gr JHP (medium velocity):



And PMC 125 gr FMJ that looks like the factory printed over JHP on the box:



Stay safe.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Can you elaborate on the k frame 66 forcing cone cracking that you may have seen at that time?

I don’t have any really old ones like Palladin44 has, but I do recall my former agency issuing Winchester 110 gr JHP to feed the issued 4” Model 66’s in the 1970’s-1990’s. When I lateraled over there in 1994 carrying my SIG P-226 from my first agency only one veteran sergeant still carried his Model 66.

I don’t have anymore of that Winchester ammo, but buried at the back of my shelf I did find these oldies still with full boxes:

Speer 110 gr JHP:

View attachment 1030684 View attachment 1030685 View attachment 1030686

Remington 125 gr JHP (medium velocity):

View attachment 1030687 View attachment 1030688 View attachment 1030689

And PMC 125 gr FMJ that looks like the factory printed over JHP on the box:

View attachment 1030690 View attachment 1030691 View attachment 1030692

Stay safe.

 

[JohnKSa]

Remington-Peters 125gr Semi Jacketed Hollow Points I believe is one of the loads that was of concern to the Older Smith and Wessons (model 19 mostly) and a steady diet of these is said to cause longevity issues with these guns, forcing cone erosion to name one of them.. LE being the bulk of the market on em back then.

The hot 125gr JHP loadings are still out there and are still kind of hard on guns. They got a good reputation as a stopper on the street so they were a fairly popular duty/self-defense load in the revolver's heyday. But even in a sturdy modern .357Mag revolver, they will still put on wear unlike you'll see with other milder loads. I've got a GP100 (it's the one in my avatar photo) that shows forcing cone erosion and flame cutting on the top strap from a constant diet of the full power 125gr JHPs (mostly the Federal variety).

 

[Lnf Crzr]

Woe- Gp100 with wear. Shows how much I don’t want to use that ammo. 158 mild in my K frames… hot 158 in L.
Thanks for sharing that info

 

[ThomasT]

Thank y’all for teaching me.

One thing you need to learn is that the 158gr LRN is NOT a weak "Widow Maker" bullet. Has it failed? Yep. Same as every other handgun round has failed at one time or another. The 158gr LRN is a deep penetrating bullet It has a good chance of tumbling in flesh. It passed out a lot of dirt naps over the years. Its not that the 158LRN is so bad, its just that there are far better bullets available.

My uncle, a Ft Worth policeman used a model 15 loaded with RNL bullets to kill one man while on duty. The guy dropped at his feet. But when better bullets became available of course he loaded up with those. I saw one of the crime shows on TV where a Sheriffs Deputy got into it with a guy at a rest stop. The cop shot the guy in the stomach with his mighty 45acp and the guy looked at the cop and dared him to shoot him again. Thankfully a bystander convinced the shootee to sit down on the curb and wait for an ambulance.

All rounds and calibers have worked. All rounds and calibers have failed.

 

[ThomasT]

I've got a GP100 (it's the one in my avatar photo) that shows forcing cone erosion and flame cutting on the top strap from a constant diet of the full power 125gr JHPs (mostly the Federal variety).

I don't shoot many of the 125gr loads. I like the 140gr jacketed bullets myself. Still lots of velocity and plenty of expansion and the recoil is just a little bit more. Plus I get better accuracy from them. I have over 300 of the Remington 140gr HP bullets left and several boxes of Hornady 140gr XTP that I really like shooting from my Marlin lever action. Those seem to hold together better than the Remington bullets.

 

[Lnf Crzr]

I prefer 180
Slower, not as loud

 

[JohnKSa]

Good point. Besides being hard on guns, the 125gr JHP is fantastically loud out of a 4" revolver. I've experienced it once without hearing protection in an indoor setting and it was so loud I didn't even experience it as a sound. Then for the next 20 minutes or so I was nearly completely deaf. My hearing has never recovered--I'm still really badly hearing-impaired in my left ear.

 

[ThomasT]

I prefer 180
Slower, not as loud

You mentioned the 180gr lead bullets in another post and I started looking for a 180gr bullet mold. They are OOS right now. I may look at some of the lead bullet makers and see what they have for sale. I have posted it before but my favorite 357 load is really a mid range load close to the original 38/44 round. And thats a hard cast 158gr bullet over 6.6grs of Unique for around 1150fps. That load digs deep and is accurate in ever gun I have tried it in. But the blast and recoil are nothing compared to full bore loads. Especially in a 4" gun. They aren't too bad in a 2" SP-101 either.