Old School .357 Magnum Duty Loads
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Palladan44
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At the 6 o' clock position, the forcing cone on M19s (and 13s) is machined flat on the bottom/outside to make room for the crane, etc. I believe it was at this position where the fracturing would occur after a given number of "full house" magnum rounds ranging from 10 to 20,000.
The ideology of the day was to practice with .38s, and carry the magnums for duty, and only practice with the magnums once in a while....
The "L" frame came out to partly address this issue, allowing for more use of the Magnums. IMO this holds true.
When I compare my M27 or 28s forcing cone (the platform the original .357 was designed) to my M13s Its a huge, huge difference in metal thickness.
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Mr. Mosin
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I’m aware
ThomasT
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Since we are talking Old School bullets and loads here are some of the Speer bullets I have left over from when I first started reloading way back around 1982. I bought from a Ft Worth gun store name Alpine Range Supply. Back then each box of Speer jacketed bullets was priced a flat $10 each. Left to right, 105gr 243 RN, 140gr HP, 146gr half jacket HP, 160gr Half Jacket soft point and bottom 158gr LSWCHP. The lead bullets I will shoot. The rest will be saved just for posterity. Or an emergency.
amd6547
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I have a 100rd box of the Rem UMC 125gn scalloped JHP put away. It used to be $49 at Walmart. I keep it for backup ammo.
Currently, the GP100 next to me is loaded with 145gn Silvertip. I also have some 125gn Critical Defense for serious use.
Currently, the GP100 next to me is loaded with 145gn Silvertip. I also have some 125gn Critical Defense for serious use.
Jim Watson
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Keith design for .38-44 Heavy Duty.
Its nose and front band are too long for .357 Magnum brass in an original .357 Magnum or Python.
OK in Combat Magnum, Rugers, and later Colts.
tightgroup tiger
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Jim Watson
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Read chapter XIII of the 1953 addendum to Sharpe's 'Complete Guide to Handloading',
'And the Angels Sing...', concluding "And the angels sing... for you."
'And the Angels Sing...', concluding "And the angels sing... for you."
ThomasT
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I have read that before. Leading is mentioned often but saw that they also metioned metal fouling. Thats still an issue with certain bullets and guns depending on how smooth the bore is. When I bought my 6" GP -100 way back around 1998 it would lead the bore. It took about 500 rounds of lead and jacketed bullets down the bore before it smoothed up. Now all I ever get is a little frosting in the bore. Thats my most shot centerfire gun and now has over 5.000 rounds down the tube. No barrel or forcing cone erosion because most loads were not full bore magnums. Mostly target loads or the above mentioned mid range loads.
I should have elaborated on the Lyman 173.
Yes it was designed for the 38/44 yet many have successfully adapted it to 357 brass in firearms that have the longer length cylinders. The N frame cylinder and others are to short and 38 spl brass is required. Tho some cylinders are long enough.
The typical 38spl 2” can get 775-800 with Unique and a 1/2 gr more approximately 1000fps in a 6.5”. These are around 20,000 psi, so it’s a plus P load. (Reference to your books for data, I have load data-yet don’t want to share that)
I like it for my 686+ Mountain gun, with hard cast and A powder coat.
I prefer heavy 357,I carry 180gr Factory in my J frame and shoot 180xtp in it often.
Yes it was designed for the 38/44 yet many have successfully adapted it to 357 brass in firearms that have the longer length cylinders. The N frame cylinder and others are to short and 38 spl brass is required. Tho some cylinders are long enough.
The typical 38spl 2” can get 775-800 with Unique and a 1/2 gr more approximately 1000fps in a 6.5”. These are around 20,000 psi, so it’s a plus P load. (Reference to your books for data, I have load data-yet don’t want to share that)
I like it for my 686+ Mountain gun, with hard cast and A powder coat.
I prefer heavy 357,I carry 180gr Factory in my J frame and shoot 180xtp in it often.
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The 6 o’clock is definitely the weak spot in forcing cone of the K frame. From what I read was the gases would go around the 110/125 and than a force would pound on that weak spot…. add some lead build up and the jacketed 125 squeezed in there and tada! A cracked forcing cone.
What I was asking was- how often did you see that happen?
What I was asking was- how often did you see that happen?
Palladan44
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From what I recall it was fairly sporadic, sometimes happening surprisingly early on.....other times K frames lasted a long long time shooting magnum rounds often. I don't know much more than that.
I typically save My maximum power loads for hunting guns anyways, M27, 586. I never have a need to test K frames limits anymore, I think most "Smith Guys" are in the same line of thinking on this one. My Model 13 gets some .38s, maybe some .38 +p and some low end Magnum loads with cast 158gr bullets loaded to maybe 1,150 - 1,200 at best. And even those are rare out of my K frame.
ThomasT
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Great picture of the forcing cone and gas cutting. Somebody put a LOT of hot rounds through that gun. I have shot the full poiwer hot loads but after a box of them I am tired of the blast. Its not fun after a while and shooting is supposed to be fun and hopefully relaxing. Enough full magnum loads and you feel like you are in a war zone.
ThomasT
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I learned to reload on my 6" model 19 and I tried every hot 357 load in the Speer #10 manual I had powder and bullets for and never did a bit of damage to that gun. That was before the internet in the early 1980s and so I didn't know I had a "weak" gun prone to breaking. Some of my favorites were 110gr bullets loaded to a supposed 1700fps. I liked shooting the mud at the edge of my buds pond from 70 yards away and looking at the explosion when the bullets hit. Then I would dig through the mud to find the bullet. I never found even a tiny fragment of one of the bullets.
amd6547
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What tells the tale is the rarity of replacement Mod19 barrels. I’ve seen plenty of people looking for them on the S&W forum.
Palladan44
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Another thought is just the sheer numbers of LEOs that used the 19s.....every piece of machinery has its limits, and in numbers, some will find the limits.
Just like all the Glocks that have broken.....yes, there have been a lot of glocks that have had issues over the years.....
And the manufacturers address the problems and make the next run better......which they have.
Just like all the Glocks that have broken.....yes, there have been a lot of glocks that have had issues over the years.....
And the manufacturers address the problems and make the next run better......which they have.
wcwhitey
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Yes as I mentioned before I inherited a few partial boxes. 110 Grain Jacketed Soft Point .357. Flame throwers and loud as hell. Not something you would shoot regularly. I posted a link to an article earlier that they tested some NOS rounds. Data showed it to not be that wild but probably from powder degradation.
ThomasT
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I never shot any Super Vel but I have read they were getting around 1100fps from a 4" 38 barrel. One of the secrets to the speed and mitigating pressure was by using a slightly smaller diameter bullet. You could probably do the same thing by loading 38 cases with a 9mm bullet. But I would get one of the Corbin cannalure machines and add a cannalure to the bullets to keep them from jumping the crimp.
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