Open carry is setting us back. IMO

[inSight-NEO]

I believe that the prudent exercise of the right to open carry can avoid causing "excessive public disturbance" and that even when open carry is not legal or prudent that it is still possible to successfully campaign for the right or for the expansion of the right.

I am curious. How would you define "prudent," as relating to OC? In this case, the word "prudent" is in danger of being very subjective.

Keep in mind, I do agree with many (but, not all) of the previous points you have made; you offered compelling arguments. Hence, this is not an argumentative invitation by any means. Again, it is simply a matter of mere curiosity. So...enlighten me.

 

[hso]

Folks,

Discussions about the practicality or utility of OC are topics for Strategies and Tactics instead of Activism. Whether you can draw or be disarmed or it deters or encourages attack isn't the question for Activism.

What is relevant is the social and political issues around OC and whether OC has a positive or negative impact on RKBA or if certain types of OC do and others don't have a negative or positive impact on RKBA.

This thread has run well past the usual 5 pages where the discussions fall apart and people become entrenched in arguments between individuals and the discussions become emotional more than logical. You've done a good job keeping the discussion reasonably civil, but if that breaks down there's no value in keeping the thread open.

Address the arguments for and against Open Carry in the context of how it effects the social and political impact to RKBA in a civil manner and we'll have a worthwhile discussion that can continue.

 

[Dashunde]

I'll contend that sporatic OC and its acceptance is (probably) a geographical thing.

In most cities it probably wont go over well at all. Walking into Macy's OC'ing a 6" 44 is going to send most people around here running, and rest assured many of them vote.
In no way do I think its a good idea to pursue or "excersise" OC while we have a great CCW situation almost everywhere. OC is just not necessary right now. Let the CCW dust settle first.
Around here, guns being out-of-sight and out-of-mind is absolutely golden.

On the other hand...
In the rural areas where people know each other it probably wont be a big deal, and might even be considered prudent depending on what critters walk thru town or around your house.

Those of you who think its a good idea and want to strut around a kids soccer game or suburbia's malls and grocery stores with with a big ol gun hanging on your belt better think again... its nonsense and just the thing that could turn on-the-fence people against us ---> the same people who dont really like it much, but do currently believe we have the right to carry concealed and to protect ourselves.

I am curious...why do you harbor such negativity towards an openly visible weapon.

I'm glad you asked.
Think about it... In our modern world, where do you see ordinary citizens carrying guns openly in large numbers?
Really.. be honest, dont say "at gun shows", or "shooting competitions" or "my local Militia" and other stuff.
In the real world, out in public.. where? Who? Why?

OC draws a unruley, chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly image of degredation and anarchy in my mind.
Not anything I want representing America.

I can only think of one single civilized peaceful place where lots of guns are OC'd and anyone feels safe, and thats a military base during an airshow.
Most everywhere with lots of OC is 3rd world and utter chaos - NOBODY feels safe there.
Our masses peacefully OC'ing with no crime in sight is a bunch of romanticised fantasy land BS.

More examples of OC romanticising...
These dillusions that seem to be simmering in some minds about Sally, Cindy, Jeff and Todd are all going to the movies looking all cute and Sally turns to Cindy and says "Hey, look at my new Raspberry LCP, isnt it the bomb", while Jeff shows Todd the new J-frame he picked up on GunBroker and they skip on in with all the other 23+ OC'ing crowd.

Or... some may have this dilusion...
There you are, standing in line at the QuickieMart, in walks a shady guy with a trench coat concealing a sawed-off who doesnt notice that XD on your belt, and just as he swings that double-barrel out you drop him because you were able to get to your OC'd gun 32 milliseconds faster, then... all the women want your phone number.
(Or maybe he does see it, and runs out of the store without doing a thing.)

Get real.. this is more likely...
Your standing with your back to the door picking out your favorite suds from the cooler with your bigass 1911 clearly visible on your hip and the guy who WAS going to go straight to the counter for the money, instead noticed your gun and quietly heads straight for you and splatters you from behind all over the inside of the cooler - THEN robs the place, THEN drops your wife who was looking at candy bars.

 

[NavyLCDR]

OC draws a unruley, chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly image of degredation and anarchy in my mind.
Not anything I want representing America.

You know, there was another group of people that the exact same things were said about...

If it wasn't for people pushing the envelope, being "unruley (which isn't even a word), chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly", first America wouldn't be America. Then we wouldn't have people like the blacks, Irish, Jews, Mexicans, Italians, women.... with equal rights. We wouldn't have homosexuals that could walk down the street without fear of harassment. And let me tell you... if you want to sit back and be satisfied with the crumbs of freedom that the government is willing to "compromise" and let you pay a tax and be licensed for, then you go right ahead. But take a look at where America is going. Keep sitting back and eating out of the hands of the liberals and it won't be before the end of this President's term that you find yourself living in the USSA = the United Socialist States of America. Every group of people that have fought for freedom in this country have had exactly the same things said about them. And, yet, in the end, who prevails? Let me tell you, it hasn't been the groups who have done nothing but paid the government for their freedom. It is the groups of people that have stood up to the liberal and communist machine and said, "Enough is enough! This is America, and by God it is going to stay America, the land of the free!" You take a hard look at the concealed weapons permit and tell me if that looks and smells like freedom to you.

Disclaimer: liberals and communists are spoken of as two separate groups in the above statements.

 

[JoeSlomo]

Those of you who think its a good idea and want to strut around a kids soccer game or suburbia's malls and grocery stores with with a big ol gun hanging on your belt better think again... its nonsense and just the thing that could turn on-the-fence people against us

It could also turn those fence sitters into supporters.

Many of those fence sitters NEVER see a firearm unless it is on a LEO, or on the T.V. being wielded by an LEO, a soldier, a criminal, or a fictional character.

While that fence sitter very well may view an individual exercising their right to OC as a threat, that same fence sitter may just as well come to the conclusion that OC and firearms are NOT the "evil" that some would portray them to be. After all, they see Mr / Mrs Smith with a firearm on their hip every Saturday at the baseball game, and they seem like nice people.

We, as a nation, have allowed the conditioning of our citizens to view firearms as a threat, rather than as the tools, and the assets, they truly are. OC may help to reduce, or at least, slow this mass conditioning in many areas of our nation. The media, nor the entertainment venues won't.

People die as a result of fires, and yet fire and flammables are not viewed in this manner. Lives are lost in automobiles, and crimes are committed using automobiles, and yet automobiles are not viewed in the same manner as firearms.

Why is that? More than likely, it is because people have more experience with those tools, and most of their experience is positive. OC has the potential to do the same in that it could give those without experience the opportunity to be comfortable around citizens with firearms because they never see said firearms used in an unlawful manner.

 

[Big Boy]

You guys aren't getting the point. Yes it may very well scare people. This is what every one keeps saying over and over and over again. It is the point, to show people that they don't have to be scared of firearms. They are involved in every day life, and they don't randomly kill people.

Anyone afraid of firearms are the people that only see guns in movies, LEO, and military. Even those against OC say this. "The reason they are scared is because they only see guns in movies and how the media portrays them" EXACTLY!!!! That's why we're out there. Showing people one grocery trip at a time that guns are normal tools, and are not dangerous unless there is a dangerous person behind them.

The arguments that non-supporters of OC are making are the exact reasons we must OC.

 

[Dashunde]

That picture is from 200+ years ago... and they're in uniform.
Not at all a good example of OC.
To a layman who doesnt study old military colors and uniforms, it might look like a good example of the "Well regulated Militia" that 2A talks about.

I get the point - Its not going to change peoples minds, except to provoke them to vote against.
"""that guns are normal tools, and are not dangerous unless there is a dangerous person behind them"""
Problem is... the other people in the store dont know if the person behind the gun is dangerous or not, and very few want to wait and find out.
OC spooks them - completely - justified or not, thats the way it is, and thats where the ccw compromise comes in.

Life is all about compromises, we all know that, why would the hot topic of guns be any different? The reality is that guns are not exempt and never will be - face that fact.
Ah, but what about that "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" bit???
Yea I agree, but too bad the 2A was written awkwardly enough to leave itself subject to interpretation... and here we are.


Oh, I almost forgot NavyLT... Cheap shot at my misspell of "unruley".
.
.

 

[Gouranga]

Dashunde, I understand where you are coming from but to counter, is it not also the case that the more people see guns out in the open on say a man in a business suit (seen in Charlotte, NC plenty of times), or just normal folks...that they may start to be less intimidated by it? I openly carry a folding knife on my belt. Nobody ever even give me a double take. Looking at the newspaper here, there are dozens of robberies done by folks carrying knives.

I do understand the power of perception and that this is a delicate game. As you said, too much and you drive folks towards the brady bunch, to little and they will go along with outlawing guns outright because as they see it, nobody has them as far as they see it.

CCW is great. I carry my weapon that way 99% of the time. However, it does nothing to carry the cause to the average person. Yesterday, I went to Walmart, Home Depot, Target, Sports Authority, Panera Bread, Bi-Lo, Edible Arrangements, and Pet Smart carrying a S&W M&P 40 fully loaded. I interacted with dozens of folks. None of them had any idea I was armed. That is good for CCW, but for eliminating the misconceptions the Brady bunch puts out, it did nothing.

IMO, those who do OC, need to be aware of those negative perceptions and stereotypes and be model citizens. They need to realize they set the tone for how people will view armed citizens in much the same manner as someone wearing a WWJD shirt represents their faith.

We have 300+ CCW permits issued in my county alone every other week. There are thousands of us in this county but most people I have talked to about it, have no clue how many of us there are. They are literally walking around armed folks all the time and still have the negative attitudes and stereotypes because they do not realize how wrong they are. OC puts that in peoples faces and as long as folks OCing act accordingly, they do more to advance the cause than anyone CCWing.

 

[Dashunde]

Well said Gouranga.
I gotta make this quick.. Mothers Day ya know..

I do wonder how many of your interactions would have been as positive if you were OC'ing while running all those errands. Probably a few, with another few being very scared of you.
Is it possible, that a few (enough), would have walked away from your positive encounter with the solid opinion that they simply dont like knowing they are around guns?

What has changed since the Brady bill expired?
Has there been an increase in crime?
has there been any increase in negative firearm use as a result of Brady going away?
Any positive perhaps?
That very well known bill going away without any negative change showing up is evidence enough the eliminate the misconceptions and discredit them - provided our anti-Brady money and effort effectively pushes that information home.
There's no need to OC to send a message. The wrong one may be received.

 

[mljdeckard]

I said several pages back, but I'll repeat one time, in my experience, the normal reaction when someone see a person open=carry, is that they will be surprised, and might seek to find out if it is legally allowed. When they find out that it is, they will further realize that the world is still turning. They don't protest and seek to change it.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Speaking of mother's day... when I go out for mother's day brunch today with my 13 year old soon to be step daughter, my fiancee, and my soon-to-be mother-in-law.... do I wear my normal gun, a Taurus PT-145, or do I wear my "goin' to meetin'" gun, an 1851 Navy Colt revolver brass framed replica?

All those people running in terror is a great way to get to the buffet before the food gets cold!

Too bad it didn't work at Ironman II last night. The only seats left were the front row and I couldn't scare even one anti into moving at the sight of my gun. (Now there's a guy that REALLY knows how to open carry, BTW!)

I said several pages back, but I'll repeat one time, in my experience, the normal reaction when someone see a person open=carry, is that they will be surprised, and might seek to find out if it is legally allowed. When they find out that it is, they will further realize that the world is still turning. They don't protest and seek to change it.

+1, me too!

 

[Big Boy]

Dashunde

Problem is... the other people in the store dont know if the person behind the gun is dangerous or not, and very few want to wait and find out.

How do they not stick around to find out? They are behind me in the line, I leave first...whew, that was a gun, and then the guy with the gun left, and I'm still alive. He must not be a crazed person.

It sounds like most people against OC have never done it or never even seen it done. People don't run, people don't gasp, they don't point and stare and ooh and ah. If anything you'll see someone look at it, or they may inquire about it to you personally. It's not like godzilla the gun is walking through town and everyone is running away as fast as they can. I can tell you that 99% of the time people treat me and react the same exact way to me when I have a gun as to when I do not have a gun.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Good read folks but I am still going to press Rick Perry and the State of Texas to allow OC at least for us who have CCW.

 

[JohnKSa]

I am curious. How would you define "prudent," as relating to OC? In this case, the word "prudent" is in danger of being very subjective.

My intent is to communicate and therefore I avoid using non-standard meanings for common words. This situation is no different. I used the word "prudent" as it is normally defined without any special meaning attached. In fact, I looked up the word prudent to make sure it meant exactly what I meant to say and I even posted the definition earlier on this thread.

In this case, the word "prudent" is in danger of being very subjective.

Indeed it is. However this is nothing new to firearm owners. The laws of self-defense are typically based on the concept of the "reasonable man" which is also subjective. In spite of the fact that it is subjective, there isn't much ambiguity introduced by the use of the concept.

If it wasn't for people pushing the envelope, being "unruley (which isn't even a word), chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly", first America wouldn't be America.

They had no other option due to the form of government they lived under. Out of the lessons learned, they created a new form of government in which the people can make their wishes known and can change the direction of the government without the need for violence.

And that means any group with sufficient popular support can make their wishes known and change the direction of the government. Therefore it makes sense for us to be prudent in how we interact with the general public since we know that if our actions generate sufficient negative feelings that we could create (or add support to) a group that has as its goal to restrict our rights.

You take a hard look at the concealed weapons permit and tell me if that looks and smells like freedom to you.

You should take a look at the concealed weapon MOVEMENT and see where it's brought us. It started with one state recognizing the right of its law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. It has expanded to the majority of the states in the union. And just recently one of the states with concealed carry has expanded that right so that it no longer requires a permit or fees.

Now THAT is progress. Positive movement. From no right to a recognized but permit-regulated right to a right that can be exercised with no permit. And it was done through the effective system set up by the people in your picture--with no need for being "unruly, chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly". In other words, just as they intended for changes to be made under their new creation.

It could also turn those fence sitters into supporters.

Clearly under the right circumstances it can be a positive influence. Just as under the wrong circumstances it can be a negtive influence. The key is KNOWING how to assess the situation and how to comport one's self so that the effect is positive. Knowing when and how to exercise the right to achieve the desired effect. In other words, being prudent.

They don't protest and seek to change it.

This is false. SOME take the approach you describe. SOME seek to change it. It's important to realize that both possibilities exist and work to achieve the one we all want.

IMO, those who do OC, need to be aware of those negative perceptions and stereotypes and be model citizens. They need to realize they set the tone for how people will view armed citizens in much the same manner as someone wearing a WWJD shirt represents their faith.

Very well said.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You should take a look at the concealed weapon MOVEMENT and see where it's brought us. It started with one state recognizing the right of its law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. It has expanded to the majority of the states in the union. And just recently one of the states with concealed carry has expanded that right so that it no longer requires a permit or fees.

Now THAT is progress. Positive movement. From no right to a recognized but permit-regulated right to a right that can be exercised with no permit. And it was done through the effective system set up by the people in your picture--with no need for being "unruly, chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly".

And I think this is a big disagreement amongst us. An activity that a person must pay the government a tax in order to engage in is NOT a right! It is a PRIVILEGE that the state is giving you permission to do, if you pay them in order to obtain that permission. There is nothing FREE about that, either in monetary terms or political terms.

And I agree, we don't need to be "unruly, chaotic, incredibly unsafe, and downright ugly" in order to change things. But what we do need to do is portray a positive image of those who carry guns to the public, and hiding the guns away from the public presents no image to them at all - and that is where we fall behind the anti-gun groups. They will always be portraying an image of those that carry guns to the public, and that image will never be positive.

 

[One-Time]

/thread

 

[The10mmcure]

First,I'd like to say I've been reading THR for a couple of years for input before I registered tonight,and it's a great forum. Now,open carry,where do I start...I've lived in NC my entire life. As a matter of fact,I'm about the 13th generation of us to live in NC . I've noticed over the past ten years or so, alot of people from out of state(mainly NY) are completely ignorant of the fact that we are an open carry state.

It's been my experience that most of them try to super impose NY's(or whatever state's) firearms laws on NC,thinking they are the same. I've also ran into the problem of when I try to explain these laws,which I can pretty much recite, there's always somebody that "knows better". Now I'm not bashing northeners,as most I know personally are pro 2nd Amendment. I've also ran into quite a few NC natives also ignorant of the fact.

However, I've also taken note that alot,and I mean ALOT of people,transplant and native alike(mostly 30 and under),are under the impression you must have a CCP to own ANY firearm. I find this quite disturbing and frustrating,so I decided a while back, the only time I will even attempt to explain NC weapons laws is when I'm fairly certain I have a receptive listener,and also one that's not a "I know better" type.

With all that said,one could possibly make an argument that CCW has set people back a great deal. Don't get me wrong,I'm all for it,but I'll assure you it's caused more people confusion about the law than open carry ever has. At least here.

I believe one reason for all the confusion,is that firearms law isn't common knowledge, say like traffic laws. You have to look them up,or at least talk to LEO's extensively.When I was 15,(ironically the age they mandate you have a hunting license to hunt) they started teaching mandatory Hunter's Safety as part of Health/Driver's ED. However it taught nothing at all of firearms law.

I think they could make that a part of all that rather easily. IMO,they don't want to because too many people would then be fully aware of their rights.

 

[The10mmcure]

Oh,I'd like to add one more thing. As of the past couple of years or so,I don't generally debate the 2nd amendment with liberals/commies. I've found it to be extremely mind numbing. You can't(as a general rule anyway) change their minds. These people are completely brainwashed,alot of the time from birth.

I find it simpler just not to bring it up,or if brought up to just walk away. Mind you I don't take any of their krapp period. I just find it extremely annoying and offensive when some commie wants to argue over a God given right!

Oh well just my thoughts....now back to playing with my new AK-74 LOL Have a good night.

 

[walteray]

10mm +1 for education, I was taught hunters/gun safety in 7th grade in PA. My history teacher taught it and had a gun safe in the class room, with weapons to teach us. Times have changed since I was in 7th grade but we had so many more people who even if they didnt hunt werent scared by the site of a gun, or a dead buck in the back of a truck, It was part of life and you were taught early its not a big deal and you were within your rights.

NavyLT I hope your not going to the buffet by KMart, havnt had a good meal there in a couple years... they might ask to borrow your gun for the cats in back....

 

[Dokkalfar]

I'm glad you asked.
Think about it... In our modern world, where do you see ordinary citizens carrying guns openly in large numbers?
Really.. be honest, dont say "at gun shows", or "shooting competitions" or "my local Militia" and other stuff.
In the real world, out in public.. where? Who? Why?

Lets see.. most places it is currently illegal to OC, and most of us don't have the time, and especially the finances, to fight an arrest based on that. Most people can only answer the places you just ruled out because it is illegal just about anywhere else.

I don't live anywhere near Vermont or Montana or Alaska (north Texas) so you might want to ask someone from those areas... But I think open carry is a good idea. you may lose some 'tactical' benefits, but the fact that alot of people see you, and more importantly see you NOT going crazy with your firearm is a real benefit to alot of people.

 

[walteray]

I support open carry one hundred percent, only these threads put me on the fence. I carry concealed everyday and I can see both points of view, it comes down to two sides

the positive- it exposes everyday citizens to a firearm ( and guess what it didnt jump out of your holster and shoot someone and run away)

the negative- the liberals freak out and tell there friends who might be on the fence about the redneck in star bucks with a huge gun on his hip (i might add it is huge and of course gorgeous)

I think we might need to organize an independent study and poll people in starbucks and the grocery store if it bothers them...

personally though i kinda of dont care if they are bothered like 10mm i cant argue anymore with dense people i have way to much gray hair for my age as it is...

 

[evan price]

In most cities it probably wont go over well at all. Walking into Macy's OC'ing a 6" 44 is going to send most people around here running...

Those of you who think its a good idea and want to strut around a kids soccer game or suburbia's malls and grocery stores with with a big ol gun hanging on your belt better think again...

Your standing with your back to the door picking out your favorite suds from the cooler with your bigass 1911 clearly visible on your hip...

First, when I read what you say I see someone that is upset. I also note that there is a continuous theme to what you say- "big" guns upset you. There's a couple reasons for that I suppose... but what about those of us who carry smaller guns than a 6" 44 mag?

I frequently OC a 5-shot J-frame, a single-stack 9mm, and a pocket-sized 9mm. Is the size of the gun directly proportional to the scariness quotient?

Second, Ohio is an open carry state. I like the fact that here in Ohio (unlike Texas) if my shirt blows up or I bend over to pick up something I've dropped, I'm not guilty of a misdemeanor that results in loss of CCW license or criminal charges.

Third, while I personally do not OC for the majority of my carrying, I certainly DO OC as the situation warrants, and I don't see people fleeing in terror or squadrons of cops coming to drag me away. Perhaps in backwards, unspophisticated Ohio we have different priorities... certainly, in some parts of Ohio (the big cities, usually) people might be more alert and concerned about OC, but in the rural areas I live, if you don't have a gun rack in your truck you're a poofter.

The idea here is that a right that is not expressed is a right lost; I for one wouldn't feel comfortable being That Guy who walks around with twin shoulder-holstered pistols and an attitude, but since when are rights reserved only for those who wear business casual or better attire and drive a beige 4-door sedan? What about the tatted Harley rider? The emo-Goth-wannabe? The Japanimation chick? They and you and me and everyone in the USA have been born with those most fortunate of gifts, US Citizenship and Freedom, and if we don't use those gifts, might as well not have them at all.

JohnKSA (ye gods, I agree with JohnKSA) specifically says "prudence", and I for one agree. I think what you, Daschund, means, is you don't want to portray our cause as "that guy" with the dropleg tactical holster and fifteen spare mags on his belt, or that other guy with the cheapy plastic holster that drops his gun while getting out his billfold. Don't be "that guy" and make us all look like uneducated redneck inbred hicks or Tacticool Tommies like the Bradys try so hard to keep Hollywood showing us as.

 

[Stevepwns]

to me OC should be aloud everywhere, thats just me. To me its like a house alarm sign in your front yard, saying "you can try but its not in your best interest". In my short 32 years of life I have found most fears come from not knowing, Most people now adays arent exposed to firearms aside from movies and the everynight story of someone getting shot. They dont realize people like me use them to feed my family, the view they hold is bias. Rush Limbaugh says ignorance is our most expensive commodity.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You know, maybe we should define what open carry looks like and decide if it is scary or setting us back from there:

That is a photo of my family and me. As usual, I am shoving my rights in other people's faces, as some people like to call it.

 

[MisterMike]

NavyLT--

Great family photo! This is the type of image that the OC movement should be conveying . . . real people with real families. The real face of OC is not the doofus who shows strolls around with an AK strapped to his back.