lilmf, no offense, but why are you so hung up on the idea of wars being fought with pistols? Nopt only do you allude to that in this thread, but I've noticed it in another as well. While handguns may be issued to our soldiers, they are NOT whats winning (or losing, depending on who you ask) the war on TERROR (not Islam...some Islamic people may be terrorists, but not every terrorist is of Islamic descent...we even raise some of them right here....). Handguns are tools of last resort, and aren't routinely dropping badguys on the front lines in most conflicts, the current one(s) included. No modern conflict has been won or lost based on what handgun the soldiers were issued.
Perspectives and Questions from a beginner.
- Thread starter DannyZRC
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On the question of magazine releases, the Walther P99/P99C has an ambidextrous release lever in the trigger guard. I didn't like it at first but now I'm used it, I think it's easier than the traditional button on the left side of the grip.
Nuke8401
Member
Only you can decide what your comfort level is concerning safety/non-safety.
I personally prefer to carry a manual safety when using a holster that does not "capture the weapon". EX: I carry a S&W CS-45, manual safety in an IWB Don Hume holster. I am confident that even if the trigger becomes exposed using this holster and something pulls the trigger the safety will prevent if from firing. I only carry a safe action auto in a Black hawk serpa or other holster type that “captures” the weapon. I have carried a safe action in an IWB non-captured type holster but was concerned about dislodging the gun and hooking the trigger on something. I shoot both types of weapons in IDPA (SSP MA, CDP EX) and can assure you that with some practice the safety will not slow down your “time to first shot”.
Concerning mag release,,, I have never had an issue with a carry weapon inadvertent releasing the mag. I have only been carrying since 1997 so my experience is limited. In that time I have carried; S&W CS-45 IWB, SIG 226 Blackhawk serpa, S&W M+P full size Fobus evolution, Glock 34 Fobus evolution, 1911 Fobus evolution. I have always gone back to the CS-45 because of its small size for a .45 ACP, manual safety, and flawless operation. I did carry a Keltec pt3at in a pocket holster for a while in my back pocket, I would occasionally find that I had pushed the mag release and ejected the mag. I was only comfortable carrying it without a round in the chamber and decided not to carry it because of these shortcomings.
Those who say as long as you keep your trigger finger off the trigger you don’t have to worry about accidental discharge, I generally don’t buy it. Maybe on something like the XD that has a grip safety in addition to safe action design.
Nothing worse than carrying a weapon and not being confident in your method of carry and safeties you rely on.
I personally prefer to carry a manual safety when using a holster that does not "capture the weapon". EX: I carry a S&W CS-45, manual safety in an IWB Don Hume holster. I am confident that even if the trigger becomes exposed using this holster and something pulls the trigger the safety will prevent if from firing. I only carry a safe action auto in a Black hawk serpa or other holster type that “captures” the weapon. I have carried a safe action in an IWB non-captured type holster but was concerned about dislodging the gun and hooking the trigger on something. I shoot both types of weapons in IDPA (SSP MA, CDP EX) and can assure you that with some practice the safety will not slow down your “time to first shot”.
Concerning mag release,,, I have never had an issue with a carry weapon inadvertent releasing the mag. I have only been carrying since 1997 so my experience is limited. In that time I have carried; S&W CS-45 IWB, SIG 226 Blackhawk serpa, S&W M+P full size Fobus evolution, Glock 34 Fobus evolution, 1911 Fobus evolution. I have always gone back to the CS-45 because of its small size for a .45 ACP, manual safety, and flawless operation. I did carry a Keltec pt3at in a pocket holster for a while in my back pocket, I would occasionally find that I had pushed the mag release and ejected the mag. I was only comfortable carrying it without a round in the chamber and decided not to carry it because of these shortcomings.
Those who say as long as you keep your trigger finger off the trigger you don’t have to worry about accidental discharge, I generally don’t buy it. Maybe on something like the XD that has a grip safety in addition to safe action design.
Nothing worse than carrying a weapon and not being confident in your method of carry and safeties you rely on.
The Iraqi Security forces just put 270,000 Glock 19's into service. I wonder why?
As you have seen in many an interview with our military members they are always carrying their M9 on their person at all times in a shoulder holster. The pistol has taken on a new value in close combat urban warfare that we have entered into. The Mossberg model 500/ 12 gauge shot gun is also very popular as a Baghdad street sweeper. They work well against the rabid dogs that are set loose upon our troops as well as the M9. I have a 5 tour Light Bird kid over there right now and believe what he tells me. No offense taken.
Gouranga
Member
I am with you on the manual safety. With kids around, and the risk of doing something stupid like picking up the gun in a hurry (say in the middle of the night when you are jostled awake and someone is in the house) and grabbing the trigger. Even with the safest best gunner I have met accidents happen and we all need to weight the risks in deciding which is best for you and your situation.
That being said, because of that I make sure I consistently engage the safety. This includes at the range. For a fresh clip I always have the safety armed. I have built it so much into my training that disengaging the safety is an automatic reflex I do not even think about it is as natural as pulling the trigger for me. With the thumb safety on my main weapon, it is so fast and easy to disengage the safety I lose no time. Pretty much whichever route you take, do it consistently and train to the point that it is a reflex. You ain't gonna be thinking if someone comes into your home or of you need it out in the world so it has to be as automatic as breathing.
As for weapons, I went with a S&W M&P 40. For the price, it was a good weapon, easy to use, easy to tear down, consistent and reliable. My wife also needed to be able to fire it and handle it, the limp wristing "issue" (a user issue not a weapon issue) with the Glocks gave me concern for this reason. There are better guns out there, worse guns, just try out as many as you can and get the one that works for you.
For the record, I carry mine about 85% of the time with one on the chamber and a full clip. The only exceptions are instances where I am in REAL tight crowds, or around a lot of kids. Folks here will strongly disagree with that, but once again, it is a measure of risk. The risk of being in a situation where someone is going to get the jump on me for the time lost racking the slide vs. the risk of a kid accidentally grabbing something they shouldn't and causing an issue. You also need to learn your weapon well to understand the mechanics of an AD with it. You just need to do what is right for you and do your own risk assessment.
That being said, because of that I make sure I consistently engage the safety. This includes at the range. For a fresh clip I always have the safety armed. I have built it so much into my training that disengaging the safety is an automatic reflex I do not even think about it is as natural as pulling the trigger for me. With the thumb safety on my main weapon, it is so fast and easy to disengage the safety I lose no time. Pretty much whichever route you take, do it consistently and train to the point that it is a reflex. You ain't gonna be thinking if someone comes into your home or of you need it out in the world so it has to be as automatic as breathing.
As for weapons, I went with a S&W M&P 40. For the price, it was a good weapon, easy to use, easy to tear down, consistent and reliable. My wife also needed to be able to fire it and handle it, the limp wristing "issue" (a user issue not a weapon issue) with the Glocks gave me concern for this reason. There are better guns out there, worse guns, just try out as many as you can and get the one that works for you.
For the record, I carry mine about 85% of the time with one on the chamber and a full clip. The only exceptions are instances where I am in REAL tight crowds, or around a lot of kids. Folks here will strongly disagree with that, but once again, it is a measure of risk. The risk of being in a situation where someone is going to get the jump on me for the time lost racking the slide vs. the risk of a kid accidentally grabbing something they shouldn't and causing an issue. You also need to learn your weapon well to understand the mechanics of an AD with it. You just need to do what is right for you and do your own risk assessment.
I don't see any big negative in a manual safety BUT...
My Beretta 92FS has a manual safety. I keep the pistol with a round chambered and the safety off when I am alone in the house so that the gun is ready to fire. But the pistol is decocked so I will need a long heavy trigger pull to fire.
When I have visitors, I don't flick on the safety but I put the gun in the safe. Even a child could operate the safety and reactivate the weapon.
So it seems to me the safety is an irrelevance. Not doing any harm (unless I forget to turn it off when I need to fire) but not doing any good either (since anyone who gets to the weapon can easily turn it off too).
Am I missing something? (As I said in quite a few of my previous posts, I am a newbie and quite often miss the subtleties so I won't be offended if you correct me).
My Beretta 92FS has a manual safety. I keep the pistol with a round chambered and the safety off when I am alone in the house so that the gun is ready to fire. But the pistol is decocked so I will need a long heavy trigger pull to fire.
When I have visitors, I don't flick on the safety but I put the gun in the safe. Even a child could operate the safety and reactivate the weapon.
So it seems to me the safety is an irrelevance. Not doing any harm (unless I forget to turn it off when I need to fire) but not doing any good either (since anyone who gets to the weapon can easily turn it off too).
Am I missing something? (As I said in quite a few of my previous posts, I am a newbie and quite often miss the subtleties so I won't be offended if you correct me).
easyg
Member
Manual safeties:
I prefer a handgun without one.
I have seen way too many folks at the range forget to disengage the safety of their handgun as they tried to shoot.
They draw and aim and squeeze the trigger, squeeze again, take their finger off the trigger, look at the pistol, then (lightbulb moment) duh! Safety is on!
And not just newbies either....I've seen it happen to experienced shooters too.
If you have kids in the house then only a fool would really believe that a child will not be able to disengage a manual safety.
Heck, my 4 year old niece can turn on, load, and play the Wii game system just fine all by herself....I'm sure the manual safety of a handgun would not pose much of a challenge to her.
So if you have children then I strongly recommend locking the gun in a safe when it's not on your hip.
But a pistol without a manual safety does require one to be very careful when holstering the pistol.
You have to make sure that there are strings or parts of clothing that might get snagged as you holster.
And a good holster is a must IMO.
Magazine release:
I honestly don't think it really matters what type of magazine release you use.
The average person is never going to reload during a self-defense situation, so speed of reloading really isn't a concern for the average Joe on the street.
Having said that, I recommend the typical button release.
Here's why:
By choosing the paddle type mag release, or the heel mag release, you're really limiting your selection of pistols quite a bit.
And this might lead you to buy a handgun that does not really suit you so well.
The heel release makes it difficult to drop the magazine without pointing your muzzle off target and possibly sweeping bystanders.
Not good gun discipline, and certainly not appreciated by those around you.
Good luck,
Easy
I prefer a handgun without one.
I have seen way too many folks at the range forget to disengage the safety of their handgun as they tried to shoot.
They draw and aim and squeeze the trigger, squeeze again, take their finger off the trigger, look at the pistol, then (lightbulb moment) duh! Safety is on!
And not just newbies either....I've seen it happen to experienced shooters too.
If you have kids in the house then only a fool would really believe that a child will not be able to disengage a manual safety.
Heck, my 4 year old niece can turn on, load, and play the Wii game system just fine all by herself....I'm sure the manual safety of a handgun would not pose much of a challenge to her.
So if you have children then I strongly recommend locking the gun in a safe when it's not on your hip.
But a pistol without a manual safety does require one to be very careful when holstering the pistol.
You have to make sure that there are strings or parts of clothing that might get snagged as you holster.
And a good holster is a must IMO.
Magazine release:
I honestly don't think it really matters what type of magazine release you use.
The average person is never going to reload during a self-defense situation, so speed of reloading really isn't a concern for the average Joe on the street.
Having said that, I recommend the typical button release.
Here's why:
By choosing the paddle type mag release, or the heel mag release, you're really limiting your selection of pistols quite a bit.
And this might lead you to buy a handgun that does not really suit you so well.
The heel release makes it difficult to drop the magazine without pointing your muzzle off target and possibly sweeping bystanders.
Not good gun discipline, and certainly not appreciated by those around you.
Good luck,
Easy
I think that's right. If the trigger catches on something then there could be a discharge. With the safety on, there won't be an accident even if the trigger catches. But that means we have to holster a weapon with the safety on and remember to flick it off when drawing. OK, no big deal, I suppose provided we train that way.
With a proper holster, there should be little chance of the trigger catching on something anyway. Also can't one prevent a discharge (even if the trigger does catch) by pushing on the back of the slide when holstering?
Shawn Dodson
Member
- Joined
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- 3,194
When handling a firearm your trigger finger should be in one of two places only:
1) off the trigger, completely out of the trigger guard, and on the Trigger Finger Rest position when it's not working the trigger, or
2) on the trigger after you have made the decision to fire.
It's THAT simple. But it does require training and experience to achieve this level of discipline with your trigger finger.
Unless you engage/disengage the manual safety each time you move your finger to/from the trigger it's not going to buy you added safety when handling the gun. Be that as it may, a frame mounted safety better facilitates the practice than a slide mounted manual safety.
As for magazine release type and location, I've carried concealed continuously since 1984. All my handguns are equipped with a magazine release pushbutton located behind the trigger guard. I've never encountered a problem with the magazine release being inadvertantly activated when holstered or handled. The same is true with the Beretta 96FS I carried on police patrol.
Problems I have encountered is a manual safety being inadvertantly disengaged on a cocked and locked S/A automatic while holstered, and the manual safety in my Beretta 96FS being inadvertantly disengaged when I snapped the thumbstrap of my Safariland 0705 SSIII holster.
Depending on my situation I currently carry a Glock 19 or Kahr PM9. I've never noticed either one to have a less "shootable trigger" than other handguns equipped with a manual safety. I'm accustomed to the trigger on each. If "shootable trigger" means one that better facilitates accurate marksmanship, I've never noticed this to be the case.
Good luck with your choice.
1) off the trigger, completely out of the trigger guard, and on the Trigger Finger Rest position when it's not working the trigger, or
2) on the trigger after you have made the decision to fire.
It's THAT simple. But it does require training and experience to achieve this level of discipline with your trigger finger.
Unless you engage/disengage the manual safety each time you move your finger to/from the trigger it's not going to buy you added safety when handling the gun. Be that as it may, a frame mounted safety better facilitates the practice than a slide mounted manual safety.
As for magazine release type and location, I've carried concealed continuously since 1984. All my handguns are equipped with a magazine release pushbutton located behind the trigger guard. I've never encountered a problem with the magazine release being inadvertantly activated when holstered or handled. The same is true with the Beretta 96FS I carried on police patrol.
Problems I have encountered is a manual safety being inadvertantly disengaged on a cocked and locked S/A automatic while holstered, and the manual safety in my Beretta 96FS being inadvertantly disengaged when I snapped the thumbstrap of my Safariland 0705 SSIII holster.
Depending on my situation I currently carry a Glock 19 or Kahr PM9. I've never noticed either one to have a less "shootable trigger" than other handguns equipped with a manual safety. I'm accustomed to the trigger on each. If "shootable trigger" means one that better facilitates accurate marksmanship, I've never noticed this to be the case.
Good luck with your choice.
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easyg
Member
I'm not sure how one could push back on the slide while holstering.
It's just easier, and safer, to look and feel to make sure there's nothing obstructing the holster before sliding the pistol inside.
After all, there's never really a good reason to holster your weapon quickly....take your time and be safe about it.
You're free to believe as you like. The case I had in mind was actually that of an Oakland, CA, couple who were attacked as they pulled into their garage. As they were hauled into their home for what would be a day-long home invasion, the thugs kept screaming at them, "where are the guns! where are the guns!"
About 4 hours into the ordeal, the husband recounted that, "At this point, I was wishing they'd just kill us and get it over with." It was much worse than the scenario I recounted. Seems that one of them had a brother who was sent to prison, so they went out hunting for a white couple to attack in retribution. Anyway, that's neither here nor there, except that had they had the presence of mind to have had a hidden gun and kept its location secret, they might have had a chance.
If so, however, in making a break for it there could have been only seconds to secure the weapon and fire it. A safety is the last thing I want to be fumbling with in an emergency. And this is just one possibility among many. So I go with revolvers and shotgun safety off.
Gouranga
Member
They certainly can but in the case that the other steps you take to secure your weapon have failed and the child gets their hands on a loaded weapon, that safety delay from a child unfamiliar with the particular weapon may give you the time you needed to discover them and end the situation before someone gets hurt.
Don't get me wrong I would NEVER be dumb enough to leave a loaded weapon out with kids around counting on on the safety to save them, or even to leave it unchambered and suspect they can't rack the slide (which they probably could not). In my world, it is just the final line of safety out of several I take to keep a loaded weapon out of my kids hands.
nitetrane98
Member
I'll not weigh in on which is "safer" because I'm of the "my finger is the safety" school. I will say that I've practiced and trained extensively with a manual safety. That means I have done thousands of repetitions of drawing, thumbing safety off, firing, thumbing safety on, re-holstering ad nausem. The concept of fumbling for a safety in an emergency is completely foreign to me. I could no more not thumb the safety off before firing than I could not put my finger on the trigger and pull. Some make it sound like they'll be reaching into a box for a gun and have no idea what they are going to pull out.
If someone were to toss me a Glock in an emergency there might be a split second of indecision but I'll guarantee my thumb will swipe the side of the slide. Hell, it's entirely possible I'd swipe a revolver in the same situation. It's that hardwired. But it came with practice.
I suppose if one does not have the time or inclination to become intimately familiar with their gun then you do what you have to do. "Whatever works for you." is my motto.
If someone were to toss me a Glock in an emergency there might be a split second of indecision but I'll guarantee my thumb will swipe the side of the slide. Hell, it's entirely possible I'd swipe a revolver in the same situation. It's that hardwired. But it came with practice.
I suppose if one does not have the time or inclination to become intimately familiar with their gun then you do what you have to do. "Whatever works for you." is my motto.
easyg
Member
I don't normally quote the Bible, but this one seems appropriate....
Proverbs 16-18:
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
I've seen more than one person, even those who have "practiced and trained extensively with a manual safety", still fail to disengage the manual safety when shooting.
Don't think that you are immune from the human condition.
easyg
Member
The vast majority of military personnel will never even fire a handgun, not even once, in their entire military service.
Even among the ground-pounders (Army and Marines) the vast majority do not have handguns.
IMO, grenades, rifles, and E-tools are much more useful to a Soldier or Marine than a handgun.
nitetrane98
Member
I certainly didn't intend to be prideful or haughty but we have a saying in Texas, "If you can do it, it ain't bragging."
You can take that however you want. Whatever problem I may or may not have with shooting my gun, getting the safety off isn't one of them. Don't project somebody else's limitations on me. I possibly should have said "exclusively" with a thumb safety gun as opposed to a non safety gun.
I have too. Usually means they haven't practiced enough.
I'm certainly not immune to any human condition. Let me put it this way. The chance of me trying to pull a trigger with a safety on is roughly the same as not opening my mouth when I put a fork full of steak up to it.
You can take that however you want. Whatever problem I may or may not have with shooting my gun, getting the safety off isn't one of them. Don't project somebody else's limitations on me. I possibly should have said "exclusively" with a thumb safety gun as opposed to a non safety gun.
I have too. Usually means they haven't practiced enough.
I'm certainly not immune to any human condition. Let me put it this way. The chance of me trying to pull a trigger with a safety on is roughly the same as not opening my mouth when I put a fork full of steak up to it.
easyg
Member
I sincerely hope that those words never come back to haunt you.
Good luck,
Easy
nitetrane98
Member
Why thank you for your concern. Me too.
.
BCRider
Member
Danny, "grace under pressure" isn't something that you can practice. But as valid a substitute as you'll find can be found by shooting in IDPA or IPSC matches where you can get a chance to practice a lot of various skills and gun handling while under the stress of a timer. Granted this is small potatoes compared to an actual defense situation but it's as good as you/we will find without going to greater lengths. At least you get to practice with drawing from a holster and other scenarios for grabbing from boxes, tables and drawers while being watched for safety infractions. Do this often enough for long enough and the lessons will be imprinted and you'll do the right things automatically when it really counts. Best of all you'll do them safely since all that will be imprinted from actual practice. The actual shooting is only part of the overall experience.
Thought I would pop this thread back up, I've now put a few hundred rounds of .22 down range, and ~150 rounds of 9mm out of : P226, G19, M&P9, SR9, and 50 rounds of .40 out of a USP and G22.
didn't like the .40 at all. AT ALL. haha.
so far, really, I haven't found a 9mm I didn't enjoy shooting. I still have some more range time ahead of me before I'm comfortable buying something, but I've got it narrowed down to 2 pistols (for) now.
1) Springfield XD 4"
2) HK P2000 w/ LEM.
both of these pistols address what I believe is the #1 handling concern, the reholstering process. it is my trepidation about a lifetime of reholstering that leads me to not accept pistol that doesn't have either a grip safety or a hammer to facilitate safe reholstering (no glock, otherwise I find the glock a lovely shooting and enjoyable firearm)
I've reversed course on the manual safety after spending my time at the range. I don't feel I have the opportunity to practice with a safety enough in a manner that would translate to correct ingrained handling practices in the real world, so I'm choosing to instead focus on so called 'automatic' safeties like a grip safety.
the P2000 doesn't require a trigger pull in the course of a field strip, and I appreciate that, and it also has the paddle style mag release which I think poses an advantage (highest likelihood of the mag staying seated over the course of carry), but the XD has fewer points of entry for FOD, is mechanically simpler and possibly more rugged, and has better availability of things like sights etc. (and it's cheaper. cheaper is nice)
I ultimately discarded the P7 as a contender, no rail, not really any sight availability, high price, and feeling like I needed a high dollar coating job to make me feel secure in it's longevity. otherwise a very attractive design. if there were a modernized P7 (capacity and metallurgy/finishing) it would shoot to the top of my list.
so that's where I'm at, I hope others find my thought process useful/ thought provoking.
as always, feedback appreciated and encouraged!
PS: BCRider (Hi, I recognize you from ST:N and ADVRider!) my experience in life so far, between flying models, flying real planes, riding motorcycles and various other acts of youthful carousing have led me to believe that, for better and worse, I'm just not that excitable. I'm "one cool cucumber" as they say.
didn't like the .40 at all. AT ALL. haha.
so far, really, I haven't found a 9mm I didn't enjoy shooting. I still have some more range time ahead of me before I'm comfortable buying something, but I've got it narrowed down to 2 pistols (for) now.
1) Springfield XD 4"
2) HK P2000 w/ LEM.
both of these pistols address what I believe is the #1 handling concern, the reholstering process. it is my trepidation about a lifetime of reholstering that leads me to not accept pistol that doesn't have either a grip safety or a hammer to facilitate safe reholstering (no glock, otherwise I find the glock a lovely shooting and enjoyable firearm)
I've reversed course on the manual safety after spending my time at the range. I don't feel I have the opportunity to practice with a safety enough in a manner that would translate to correct ingrained handling practices in the real world, so I'm choosing to instead focus on so called 'automatic' safeties like a grip safety.
the P2000 doesn't require a trigger pull in the course of a field strip, and I appreciate that, and it also has the paddle style mag release which I think poses an advantage (highest likelihood of the mag staying seated over the course of carry), but the XD has fewer points of entry for FOD, is mechanically simpler and possibly more rugged, and has better availability of things like sights etc. (and it's cheaper. cheaper is nice)
I ultimately discarded the P7 as a contender, no rail, not really any sight availability, high price, and feeling like I needed a high dollar coating job to make me feel secure in it's longevity. otherwise a very attractive design. if there were a modernized P7 (capacity and metallurgy/finishing) it would shoot to the top of my list.
so that's where I'm at, I hope others find my thought process useful/ thought provoking.
as always, feedback appreciated and encouraged!
PS: BCRider (Hi, I recognize you from ST:N and ADVRider!) my experience in life so far, between flying models, flying real planes, riding motorcycles and various other acts of youthful carousing have led me to believe that, for better and worse, I'm just not that excitable. I'm "one cool cucumber" as they say.
REAPER4206969
Member
Tenacious B
Member
Well I'm shopping for my first handgun too, and got around to actually shooting some for the first time yesterday. Tried out the SW 686 .357, XDm 9mm, HK USP, G17, and Sig P226. I frankly didn't care one way or the other what type of safety or mag release they had. None of the guns had safties/mag release that drew attention to themselves, good or bad.
I think the most important thing is to find a gun that feels really good in your hand. Buy that gun, then learn to use it safely whatever its configuration happens to be.
That being said, my taste in autos seems to lean towards the exposed hammer/manual safety variety. Not because of those features, but because I like full sized metal frames and that is the configuration that seems common to them.
I think the most important thing is to find a gun that feels really good in your hand. Buy that gun, then learn to use it safely whatever its configuration happens to be.
That being said, my taste in autos seems to lean towards the exposed hammer/manual safety variety. Not because of those features, but because I like full sized metal frames and that is the configuration that seems common to them.
Granted, a handgun would be the weapon of last resort and less frequently used than many other tools, but admittedly my mind kind of boggles at the notion of not having a backup weapon while in a war zone. Even LEOs often carry one, and I've been looking into getting one for home defense. What if a soldier's primary weapon malfunctions (especially in the sandy, gritty places they often find themselves in) and can't easily be cleared? I guess they'd usually rely on cover, the cover fire of others, and possibly being able to pick up a spare weapon if it comes to that, but I've read or heard about a few instances of urban warfare in which a backup weapon--even a puny handgun--could have come in handy.
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