PGO use cases; what are they?

[Andrew Wyatt]

those people who own PGO shotguns, what do you use them for?

I'd like a description of the use you put them to, with enough detail that i can write a course of fire around it.

 

[mgregg85]

I used to own one, I used it to shoot can's and what not. Unless you are on a SWAT team blowing out doors, plinking is all its good for. Putting a stock on it makes it a real force to be reckoned with.

They are fun toys and I would love to buy a serbu super shorty or a lupara but they don't do much of anything better than a full stocked shotgun.

I don't see why a full stocked shotgun couldn't be used to shoot out hinges and door knobs unless you wanted it small so you could use a rifle or SMG for dealing with the bad guys.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Mossberg JIC at the range thread post #144

 

[olderguns2]

One thing they are good for,,, one of a few gun setups to stir such strong opinons, both pro & con, almost as much love/hate as the Judge...
but in any case I have one and will someday have a judge, and I personaly see them as useless except Just because you want it, and that's way I have one Just Because....

 

[JVaughn]

Shorter overall length is the only advantage I am aware of. the are hard to handle and painful to shoot. They are easier to conceal than the same weapon with a full size stock. I don't see any other advantage.

 

[amd6547]

My PGO Mossberg is stored in a place which is just long enough to accommodate it's length, and just wide enough to fit its width at it's widest point...the forearm.
No need for a course of fire...the course of fire is basically being alerted to a break in in the middle of the night, yelling outside that I am armed and the police are on the way...bad guy breaks down door anyway and receives a load of buckshot from 10 feet. My PGO can make that shot 100 percent of the time with a quick follow up.

 

[SpamHandler]

Charles Augusto used one to great effect. 72-year old who had never fired the weapon in about 20 years of ownership successfully defends his employees from armed robbers. A real-life encounter like this would be a good starting point for a COF.

 

[rbernie]

Since compact storage is their predominant benefit (at expense of ease of use and likely utility), I would imagine that the course of fire would include retrieval of the shotgun from a storage location too small for a traditional gun.

Other than backpacking or along the console of a automobile, I can't really imagine what that would look like.

 

[SpamHandler]

Yes, a Dozier Drill with a shotgun

 

[amd6547]

I have stated in previous dust ups on the subject of PGO shotguns that my primary SD weapons are a handgun and an M1 carbine.
However, as stated, my PGO resides in a hiding spot too small for a full stocked shotgun or a folder...in full stocked form, it is bigger, longer, heavier, and bulkier than the M1 carbine. It is also, emphatically not my only shotgun...I also keep a Remington model 11 riot gun.
Therefore, the PGO fills a specific role for me, and I would never recommend the PGO as the only shotgun for a person too own. I also would never discount the PGO shotgun in the hands of a person who knows how to use it.

 

[Pfletch83]

Well for one thing a PGO Shotgun can be easier to manage when getting into/out of vehicles,open carry is another good use.

I'm going to see what I can do without a traditional stock on my new 500 at the home range (when I get my hands on it).

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I heartily agree, amd6547



A man has to know his limitations, but it is a mistake to assume your limit is every one elses.

 

[inherentical]

I have really short arms.

 

[Kendal Black]

Since compact storage is their predominant benefit (at expense of ease of use and likely utility), I would imagine that the course of fire would include retrieval of the shotgun from a storage location too small for a traditional gun.

If you're into building mockups out of 2x4, how about a Piper Cub cockpit mockup? Plane is simulated as being stopped on the ground, tail low of course, with the struts and landing gear where they would be in real life, and there is a pretend person presumed to be a no-shoot in the other seat:

• Extract yourself and your shotgun from the rear seat, without any Rule Two violations, and engage targets.
• Same as above, but weapon is cased and unloaded.
• As B, but the case is locked.

This could be run using alternative weapons such as a taken down break action, etc.

Several variations come to mind: You are in the front seat and/or the propeller is presumed to be turning and it is a DQ if you get into the pretend propeller arc, etc.

Too esoteric? You are in a car with your seatbelt fastened to start. You must exit the car without sweeping any of the other three "occupants" with your muzzle. Of course you would use simulated occupants.

Or, the scenario is you are hiking and your gun is in your knapsack in Condition Three, or in the pack unloaded, or unloaded with a trigger lock... etc.

Or you are leaving an airline terminal area , having arrived there on a flight, with your gun and ammo separated and locked up all legal-like, when the starting buzzer sounds...

 

[Kendal Black]

Charles Augusto used one to great effect. 72-year old who had never fired the weapon in about 20 years of ownership successfully defends his employees from armed robbers. A real-life encounter like this would be a good starting point for a COF.

I agree. You fetch your PGO gun from under a counter or behind a stove or something and engage four. Sounds like there might be a no-shoot in the mix as well, but it's hard to be sure.

I googled and came up with news coverage. Here are a couple stories about the episode; there are more.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/region...I;jsessionid=CB59DB8CBBDE85DC41ADCB151DAE0D74

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/n...anitationlib::sanitize_string:1 called-->

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

If you're into building mockups out of 2x4, how about a Piper Cub cockpit mockup? Plane is simulated as being stopped on the ground, tail low of course, with the struts and landing gear where they would be in real life, and there is a pretend person presumed to be a no-shoot in the other seat:

• Extract yourself and your shotgun from the rear seat, without any Rule Two violations, and engage targets.
• Same as above, but weapon is cased and unloaded.
• As B, but the case is locked.

This could be run using alternative weapons such as a taken down break action, etc.

Several variations come to mind: You are in the front seat and/or the propeller is presumed to be turning and it is a DQ if you get into the pretend propeller arc, etc.

Why isnt the passenger doing the shooting? the pilot is presumably in the middle of a landing or takeoff at the time.

Too esoteric? You are in a car with your seatbelt fastened to start. You must exit the car without sweeping any of the other three "occupants" with your muzzle. Of course you would use simulated occupants.

Why arent the other occupants doing the shooting? why arent the other occupants bailing out of the car as well?

Or, the scenario is you are hiking and your gun is in your knapsack in Condition Three, or in the pack unloaded, or unloaded with a trigger lock... etc.

Why would you keep your primary means of defense in that condition?

Or you are leaving an airline terminal area , having arrived there on a flight, with your gun and ammo separated and locked up all legal-like, when the starting buzzer sounds...

The Configuration of your luggage and locks would determine speed more than the configuration of the contents of the luggage. you could get a beltfed MG out in approximately the same amount of time as a PGO shotgun.

I also asked for use cases, not stages of fire.

 

[Zoogster]

The only benefit is size, and involves excessive shortening of the wrong end of the gun due to legal constraints on shortening the other end.
Or when shortening both ends, an AOW is legal in places a short barreled shotgun is not, like California for example. You can have a PGO with a short barrel, but not a short barrel and a stock.
AOW also have fewer rules, like checking in and getting ATF permission to take them across state lines.


Most of the benefits of a PGO are really artificially created because of legal constraints. A short barreled shotgun with a folding stock can be just as small as a full barreled PGO shotgun while being a lot more useful. The NFA keeps them from replacing PGO guns.


Since the current minimum shotgun length without going into NFA territory is 26 inches, and that is right about what many 18 inch barreled guns with typical autoloading and pump receivers are with no stock attached, a PGO is the most common practical way of legally reaching the minimum 26" gun.
However firearms like the KSG should resolve that.


That KSG is also 26" overall, the same length of something like a mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870, and many other common receivers with a PGO and an 18" barrel.
Yet it is clearly superior to a PGO shotgun, while being of the same minimum overall length and barrel length without being an NFA item.


If bullpup shotguns of 26" overall length become commonly available that allow shoulder fire without NFA paperwork then the primary benefit of a PGO non-NFA shotgun disappears.
Then the only purpose of a PGO shotgun would be for even shorter NFA firearms.

 

[MCgunner]

Best use I could ever figure a PGO was good for is maybe put a 30" barrel on it and use it if you forget your putter running to the golf course. Pistol grips work great on pistols.

 

[amd6547]

I agree the the standard OEM Mossberg pistol grip is not the best configuration...it is usable, but not the best.
Over the years, I have used the choate AR-styled grip, the Pachmayr Vindicator rubber grip, and the OEM Mossberg...eventually, I have settled upon the speedfeed birds head grip, which simulates a PG full length stock which has been cut off behind the PG.
This is similar to the grip used on the "witness protection" shotguns which have been used by some pretty serious shooters who must not have gotten the message that PGO shotguns are good for nothing.
The birds head grip ameliorates the recoil, and seems to point better from the hip, or from low shoulder. It also has the advantage on the Mossberg of giving easy access to the safety.

 

[Kendal Black]

I prefer the birdshead grip too. It's an old, old idea you can see on historical PGO types, such as the lupara. Many other types will batter the web of your hand unless you "choke down" on the grip, which does not improve control.

I haven't tried the Knoxx.

As to bullpups, yeah, that's the way to go, but in my formative years there weren't any real good ones available. Looking forward to examining the new crop.

 

[withdrawn34]

So people can follow their heroes in zombie movies. I am not a big fan of zombie movies, so I don't really get the PGO mentality. But hey, to each his own.

 

[Kendal Black]

Best use I could ever figure a PGO was good for is maybe put a 30" barrel on it and use it if you forget your putter running to the golf course. Pistol grips work great on pistols.

I suggest that a review of Rule Two is in order.

 

[Kendal Black]

I also asked for use cases, not stages of fire.

Did the goal posts just move?

 

[Kendal Black]

I get the joke but it's off the mark

So people can follow their heroes in zombie movies. I am not a big fan of zombie movies, so I don't really get the PGO mentality. But hey, to each his own.

Before the zombie movie craze, long before, I was sometimes schlepping one of these things, not because it was the best gun ever, but as an expedient.

It's a fine word, 'expedient.' You should look it up, Doc! (If you caught that movie reference, well...you're old.)

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I think the Secret Service have used, Wilson Combat, 870s, 3+1 version, PGOs, called the "Witness Protection", since the early 80s.

One thing it does better than a full size riot gun, is hang from a shoulder holster.

Witness Protection Detail

VIP Protection Detail