Picking a weapon for civil unrest

[Whump]

And may I add this--Just like me, all my AK's, SKS's, and my Mosin are ugly just like me, but just like me "they work"--(most be-u-tee-ful weapons I own)--Nuff said--

 

[FilJos]

Coming from a state with "shotgun only" (and no buckshot) hunting laws, I am thinking along the lines of a "deer gun" or slug gun. Rifled barrel, the whole shooting match.

 

[BobTheTomato]

After reading several accounts of civil unrest after Katrina in the NRA first freedom magazine it seemed like the looters looked for easy targets to steal things from. In all of the accounts that were in the magazine simply brandishing a weapon was enough to send them looking else where. From this I think that the best defense is simply to be prepared with a weapon and let the deadbeats know you intend to use it. My advice is pick whatever weapon you can have a considerable supply of ammo for and feel comfortable shooting. Also have spray paint and plywood on hand to make signs that say "Looters will be shot". Think about it....if you were out to loot would you go after the guy with those signs in this yard or someone else?

 

[Lonestar]

You already have a Glock 27...get a .40 carbine. The Kel-Tec can use Glock magazines. The Storm is a lot nicer, but expensive. If your really strapped for cash you can get a Hi-point.

 

[shappy0869]

Great Discussion!

Thanks for everyone's input. I still can't seem to make a decision. I did look at the Kel-Tech online, but the inability to add any sort of aftermarket optics is discouraging to me. I feel it is important to hit what you are shooting at (duh) and in a stressful situation, I believe optics are a huge help!

The Berretta CX4 seems really nice, but I just don't know if the price makes sense. While I believe you usually get what you pay for, I don't know that the Storm is 3 or 4 or 5 times better than the Hi-Point or Kel-Tec.

Then there is the whole issue of ammunition. Sure rifle is better than pistol and shotgun is somewhere in between, when you want to reach out and "touch" someone. You can go crazy trying to figure out which would be best for which scenario, and most likely (and hopefully) none will ever come to fruition.

I can't help but be drawn to the idea of building up a police 870 model. There is something extremely intimidating about a shotgun. There is the psychological reaction of hearing the action and/or looking down that gaping bore. Plus, when fired, they are very loud and big "booms" will scare more than little ones. The ideal fight is the one that never gets started, and as one poster mentioned, just the sight of a shotgun will take the fight out of many people. Plus, I can make a real nice one that will stay within my budget.

The next gunshow in my area isn't until the end of November, so I can just stew over this decision until then, and I do mean stew. I mean, you can't possibly know if you have made the right decision until you are in the situation that you had planned for, but hoped you would never be in (and that you wife thinks you are crazy to even worry about).

 

[Oregongundude]

I would like a Kel Tec s2000 for my glock 17 mags, or this.

Kel-Tec SU-16 D12 SBR Security Rifle 12"

The SU-16D is a gas operated, semi-automatic rifle in 5.56 mm NATO caliber. The barrel and chamber are chrome lined. The "Delta" model rifles are intended as a personal weapon for non-infantry military personnel, special operations, SWAT law enforcement, and civilians in high risk environments. The SU-16D is especially suited for low intensity urban combat such as ambush response from inside a vehicle. or fighting in confined spaces.
The concept of replacing the pistol with a carbine in military units is not new. Nowadays, the intermediate power 5.56 mm round and modern polymer materials make it possible to achieve a weapon of a size and weight only marginally larger than a service pistol.
The SU-16D9 is less than 20” folded, weighs 4.7 lbs loaded with 30 rounds and has a practical range of over 300 m.
The SU-16D has a conventional gas piston operation and utilizes the proven M-16 breech locking system. The reciprocating bolt handle also functions as a case deflector. The rear sight is zeroed at 250 m and adjustable for windage. The front sight is of M-16 type. Two integrated Picatinny rails will accept a multitude of standard accessories. Except for barrel, bolt, sights and mechanism the SU-16 is made entirely of high impact, glass fiber reinforced polymer.


The Bushes on a fishing trip in New Orleans

Fix Bayanets.

 

[Manedwolf]

The biggest plus in the Sub-2000's favor to me is that it folds down to 16".
Thus, you can have a long gun stuffed in the bottom of a backpack under sleeping bag and food.

What good is an AR going to do you if the authorities are not allowing weapons on an evacuation vehicle or in a shelter, and take it from you? Now you have no long gun. Same with the CX-4. It's not any better than the Sub-2000 in terms of firepower, but it's large enough that you can't hide it anywhere, so it would be confiscated in such a circumstance.

Subtle is good.

 

[LAK]

Rifle. In the words of the late Colonel, "the rifle is the queen of personal weapons"

-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[junyo]

Subtle is good.

Exactly. A lot of this debate is basically the open carry/concealed carry argument. Your choice is your business, but I can't help think that while most criminals of conveniance/opportunity will leave the obviously well armed alone, that the hardcore ones will specifically target you if you're dripping with all kinds of goodies. Your nice guns and supplies probably represent a significant upgrade to the crap he and his gang are holding. That's pretty much the tactic that a lot of people here - a lot of the same people that plan on displaying their hardware - plan to use ("My ammo is whatever the blue helmets bring me.") And don't think that a) they're not willing to let a few of the lower level members catch bullets to get your stuff, and b) that any weapons you can carry on your back will stop you from being overwhelmed by 10 or 15 even slightly coordinated attackers. In a situation where the only tools/backup/hope you have consists of you, yourself, and you, evacuating through unfriendly, unfamiliar neighborhoods, you need to do anything other than project an accurate threat level. You need to look like not easy pickings, but still not worth hassle of shaking down. And if somebody does decide to try and take your stuff/harm you, you need them to underestimate how much force that will take, try and brace you up with a couple of guys instead of 12, thus putting you in a fight with reasonable odds. Therefore anything you can conceal, yet bring into action relatively quickly, is to your advantage. If it has to be in the open, a beatup looking shotgun, an "old" lever action from behind the seat of the truck, anything that makes the opposition think slow, broke, and harmless, when you are really quick and deadly. Or in my case, ambulatory and willing to hurt your feelings.

 

[browningguy]

I have a KT Sub2000, 9mm with the Glock mag well, with a bunch of 32 and 17 round mags. The carbine folds up and fits in a standard briefcase with 154 rounds loaded in mags, more than enough to fight my way home to get the big guns. It's more than accurate enough (2-2.5" groups) at 50 yards with +P ammo. I've only shot it a couple of times at 100, I can get consistant hits but not as accurately as the gun is probably capable of.

Between the Sub2000, SU16, pistols in .40 (4) and 9mm (3), SKS, FN 49 I really don't have any plans to use a shotgun. They are useful for many people, I'm just not planning on setting one up for HD.

 

[DRMMR02]

Oregon, you know that pic is a fake right?

 

[Lonestar]

Oregon, you know that pic is a fake right?

The photo was doctured with Photoshop. Yep the fish was actually a lot smaller

I have been thinking about getting a Sub2000 too. I don't own any long guns just handguns. Seems like a useful thing to have around.

 

[crofrog]

But what I meant with "...when at such range you can instead make a quick retreat and away from danger." was say all hell is breaking loose in the city and all of a sudden you are fired upon from far away but you are unharmed.

What's to say his next shot is going to miss too. If you get shot at you can shoot back. That's true for everywhere I can think of.

 

[Dirty Bob]

Handgun and carbine.

If I stay in my neighborhood (bug-IN, which is what I plan to do if possible), then I would probably choose my sporterized No.4 Mk1* Enfield (Bubba cut it down, not me!). It doesn't look threatening, yet it holds 10 full-power rifle rounds and can be fired and reloaded quickly. Reloading speed is the primary advantage it would have over the classic American rifle: the Winchester 1894.

If I had to flee, I'd take along the Enfield in the vehicle. If I needed to at some point during evacuation, I'd stash it as carefully as possible -- minus the bolt -- and hope to retrieve it later. I would like to pick up a Sub-2000, which could be in a bag or backpack, out of sight, and could use the same mags as my concealed pistol. Such a weapon would let me adapt to changing circumstances.

Firearms training and practice, a good bug-in plan and preparations, a bug-out plan that includes escape routes and contingency plans, and knowing your neighbors are all probably more important than choice of firearm, provided you have a firearm.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[CornCod]

I would not feel naked with either a pistol caliber carbine or a shotgun in a civil unrest situation, but Whump is right, nothing beats an AK for urban warfare, disorder and chaos.

(1) Short enough to be handy
(3) Good enough bullet for the job.
(4) Amazing reliability
(5) Better range than a pistol caliber carbine or shotgun

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I would not feel naked with either a pistol caliber carbine or a shotgun in a civil unrest situation, but Whump is right, nothing beats an AK for urban warfare, disorder and chaos.

(1) Short enough to be handy
(3) Good enough bullet for the job.
(4) Amazing reliability
(5) Better range than a pistol caliber carbine or shotgun

I'd argue that a leveraction .357 or .44 would be better than the AK. The leveraction is just as short and handy. Just as reliable. External ballistics of a .357 from a long barrel are comparable to 7.62x39, and internal ballistics of the .357 are probably superior.

The levergun has a disadvatage in magazine capacity, but the magnum leverguns still hold plenty of ammo. I don't plan on playing Rambo during any disaster, so a levergun would be more than adequate. Plus with the levergun there are no magazines to have to keep track of.


The leveraction has a few important advantages. The big advantage is the vastly superior sights, trigger pull, and ergonomics will make hitting your target so much easier and more certain. Another advantage is the possibility of your handgun and your rifle using the same caliber, which could be a big plus in a disaster situation. The levergun won't scare the sheep, but a few solid hits from one will certainly scare off the bad guys (however many of them aren't hit...).

A Marlin .357 is definitely worth thinking about.

 

[The Drew]

WHere on earth do you get the idea that .357 is almost ballistically equivalent to the 7.62x39???

If you want to compare it to a lever cartridge then compare it to the .30-30 and the x39 gets the advantage because of pointed bullets...

If a downside to the AK is that it has mags that can be lost, then an SKS will pick up where the AK left off, it has the same capacity as a .357 lever gun and will reload VASTLY faster with stripper clips, and most of them have an integral bayonet if things get really down and dirty...

And let me be clear on this.. In a disaster situation I want EVERYONE to be scared off by the looks of my weapon. That's why an AK to me is perfect.

As to the caliber compatibility, if you want that then go semiauto carbine that uses the same mags as your pistol. Again, in a disaster I'm gonna want as much firepower as possible and limiting myself with a wheelgun and a levergun are just not in the cards for me, not to mention handling all that loose ammo...

 

[Dirty Bob]

I like the Enfields better than lever actions. Both are simple and reliable, but I just trust the Enfield more and the rifle feels good in my hands. In a Jungle Carbine, or similar short configuration, it's fairly handy, though not as short as the smallest Marlins. Even the full-size No.4 Mk1 doesn't feel clunky in my hands.

I'm sure, however, that the historian at the Nat'l. D-Day Museum was happy to have the AK that he used to save himself and his spouse from a gang of thugs during their escape from NOLA. It was written up as an article in American Rifleman.

Dirty Bob's Rules for SHTF
Rule #1: Have a plan
Rule #2: Have a means of carrying out that plan (including a gun)
Rule #3: Have a backup plan

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by crofrog

What's to say his next shot is going to miss too. If you get shot at you can shoot back. That's true for everywhere I can think of.

I see your point. Personally I feel the same.

But what's to say your aim will be true and not kill somone else you did not intent to shoot at?

This topic is quite complex and interesting. It places you pretty much between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

WHere on earth do you get the idea that .357 is almost ballistically equivalent to the 7.62x39???

From my Lyman reloading manual.

7.62x39 can launch a 123 grain bullet @ ~2400 fps, or 130 grain bullet @ ~2300 fps. This is from a 20" test barrel. AK-47 barrels are shorter, and would therefore lose a bit of velocity.

.357 mag can send a 125 grain bullet @ ~2300 fps, tested from a Winchester 94 levergun.

The 7.62x39 has an edge in aerodynamics, but neither cartridge is truly suitable for long range, and self-defense isn't a long range affair to begin with. The bottom line is that .357 from a carbine is more or less comparable to 7.62x39. Shooting in the field under self-defense situations, the slight differences won't make any difference at all.

What will make a difference is how well you can use your rifle. My big reason for preferring a lever gun over the com-bloc peasant weapon is that the latter has wretched sights and trigger pull and stocks that don't fit fully-grown western bodies. Hitting a target with a levergun promises to be much easier than hitting with an AK.

I want to rely on well-placed fire from my weapon and not just it's appearance. I can get more of that from a Marlin than from an AK. I want my dog to bite, not just bark.

Since both weapons can get the job done, the best choice for self-defense is the one that I can shoot the best. For me that would be a Marlin rather than an AK (and my AR rather than a Marlin, but let's not go there). If you shoot your AK better, then that's what you should carry.

I don't mean to start an argument, I'm just giving y'all some food for thought.

 

[rogerjames]

Shappy, I live in south florida, ft lauderdale area. Where do you go to shoot clays? I own a ruger SP101, but am planning on adding remingtom or mossberg 12 gauge in near future. Would like to know before the purchase where I may go to shoot the bad boy.

 

[lionking]

I know expvideo,what could happen during mass hysteria could be ugly.Though for hurricanes in Florida,its been my experience that people come together and help each other.There is little risk of mass flood like in N.O.

True that there may be some looters mainly businesses,but after Andrew there was not much unrest...just not much rest, cause it was hard to sleep in the hot summer nights.

If a nuclear fallout was around,Im not sure fleeing would be a option.I dont know what I would do honestly.Trying to escape by boat might be a better way since the roads would be a nightmare.

 

[crofrog]

But what's to say your aim will be true and not kill somone else you did not intent to shoot at?

Because you aquire the training and skills nescary to know not only how to hit out at the longer ranges, but to know when you can not safely hit at the longer ranges.

 

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by crofrog

Because you aquire the training and skills nescary to know not only how to hit out at the longer ranges, but to know when you can not safely hit at the longer ranges.

That does not guarantee that you won't miss. Even the best experts miss and especially true when under pressure.

 

[bad LT]

Headless Thompson Gunner,

One advantage that an AK has over a lever action is the availability of folding stocks. They can be made small (and kept in a duffle bag or equivalent) for storage/keeping the sheeple neighbors happy. The stock can also be extended for use as a rifle when needed.

However, the balistics of a 357 or 44 out of a rifle are quite impressive!!! Check out the figues for rather heavy 357s out of a rilfe from Buffalo Bore:

18.5 inch Marlin 1894

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps---- Can you believe this?!!!
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps---- Or this?!!!