Pistol Choices

[wesessiah]

funny that someone would consider cz low or middle tier considering the sp-01 is the winningest gun in ipsc history. there aren't as many cz's in police departments and such for two main reasons:
1. they were behind the iron curtain so we didn't have ready access to them until fairly recently, especially compared to the other guns that came into popularity in the 80's.

2. they don't offer police departments guns for $5 to advertise for them like other companies that will remain unnamed.

if you think czech made guns, are, or have ever been low quality you probably haven't done much historical firearm research. germans used czech guns over their own (the ones who invaded czechoslavakia) and even upgraded p-38's with czech designs... i can't recall the designation on those...

it is understandable for someone to not be that familiar with cz, as it is fairly recent to the u.s. btw, their rifles are some of the best you can buy for those who haven't shot one... but i don't see how someone could consider 3 of the most legendary gun makers in the world bottom teir. those being, browning, beretta, and walther.

cz quality or craftsmanship isn't dwarfed in any way by sig or hk... and from my experience, i hold sig and cz in higher regards than hk.

 

[wesessiah]

forgot to mention... the compact 9mm cz's come with 14 round mags except in places that require the 10 rounders... and they can use all the way up to the 32 round mags.

 

[Jed Carter]

As I've stated before I own 5 SIGs only reason I don't carry a P229 is the slide width and weight. The CZ PCR I carry is only slightly larger than the P232 .380acp I used to carry, only the grip is longer and wider, grip width is the only similarity between the P226 and the CZ 75D PCR. In my home the P226 is my go to pistol with tritium night sights. I love the PCR but I do have to admit the finish (polycoat) on the CZ is cheap compared to the nitron on my SIGs, and the primitive take down pin / slide release vs the easiest pistols to field strip in the P226. If I could only own ONE it would be the P226, but I can own others and and I trust my life to the PCR everytime I leave my home.

 

[wesessiah]

i haven't had any issues with the polycoat, though i only have one cz with the polycoat finish, a p-01... the nickel finish seems excellent so far... no noticeable wear or chipping keeping it in a leather holster (p-01). i guess the take down method is personal preference, but pushing the slide stop out with the slide back a few mm is pretty simple, though they can be pretty stiff for a while. just on personal preference, i would take my cz's over my sig, though they're different cals from each other. i wouldn't say they are better (or worse for that matter in my opinion) but i love the feel and balance of most cz's. one thing i would change about my p-01, since i like to carry it concealed up front, is the size and shape of the beavertail. i love it when shooting, but prefer carrying up front. i've considered a sig 229, and fnh fnp-9m to replace it just for that matter.

speaking of fn... they should be on the list... the five-seven sort of has the legendary status even if it's just for the ammo, and the fnp series are great, especially the replaceable rails, and barrel cradle.

btw, jed, one of those sigs wouldn't be a p220 would it? such a great gun edit: i should pay more attention to your posts jed, as you already mentioned fn too.

 

[possum]

of all the different makes and models of handguns that i have shot, used, owned, trained with etc, there is no better handgun out there for me than the sa xd series. i have a service model .40 with over 17,000rds and i couldn't be happier with it.

 

[dogspit]

WHAT???

What?
No mention of the best pistola ever available?
Why I'm speaking of the Lorcin L-380
Please put this as an option on the poll. I think you'll be surprised??LOL

 

[DeepSouth]

Can anybody give me a good reason - other than price - why you would pick a low to mid-quality pistol like a Kahr or CZ over a high-quality pistol like a H&K or Sig?

KAHR makes a 45 that I can carry in my pocket, Neither H&K or Sig do AFAIK.

BTW: You should LOOK at a KAHR, they are very well made pistols

After the Kahr, S&W semi's and the Springfield XD were next in popularity? These are basically DAO/SAO (whichever you consider striker-fired to be) Glock-mocks. The only advantage I can see these have over a Glock is the difference in grip angle. They are fairly new designs from mid-quality established manufacturers. Why not just buy a Glock?

XD has

Better grip angle
Grip safety
Decent Loaded Chamber Indicator
Isn't butt ugly--A biggie for me
Doesn't rhyme with sock, block, mock, clock, ect,ect

Why buy a Glock over an XD? Could be my question, but I don't really care. People buy what they like......Personal Perseverance........

Don't mean to be rude, but you asked.

 

[IdahoLT1]

jeez. someones panties are wadded up and are making generalizations based on ignorance

 

[wbwanzer]

I just did my paperwork for a new Stoeger Cougar (Beretta Cougar). I'm getting it because it's the size I want and I've read nothing but good things about it. There are other nines I could have chosen, but I like the fact that not everyone else at the range has one. It's different than what everybody else has.

 

[The Bushmaster]

And no mention of Kimber 1911s

 

[JTQ]

Can anybody give me a good reason - other than price - why you would pick a low to mid-quality pistol like a Kahr or CZ over a high-quality pistol like a H&K or Sig?

Because people have different needs and wants when they buy a pistol for a specific purpose. It could be size, or features, or caliber, or just because they like the looks.

Some prefer a single action trigger (as much as you may not like them and can't understand why somebody would) and thus prefer a 1911, or Hi-Power, or CZ.

Some want a pocket pistol such as a Kahr, Kel-Tec, or Ruger LCP.

Some buy them because they appreciate the military history of the firearm (1911, Hi-Power, the Berretta 92/M9).

Some purely for the beauty of the firearm like a finely made 1911 or Browning Hi-Power with custom stocks (anybody want to call any HK beautiful?).

Some prefer not to have a hammer on their pistols because they get hung up on clothing during the draw.

I've never warmed up to the P series Sigs because I find the decocker odd. I'm sure they are fine pistols, but that one feature has, for the most part, kept me from buying one. They are the only company using it (I'm sure somebody will chime in with some other company that also uses it, but you get my point), and it is not ambidextrous. The slide mounted decocker/safety used by S&W, Ruger, Berretta, etc, is much more common making it easier to transition from one platform to another.

And some, you may find this hard to believe, have done all the research, compared features, shot them, and have come to the conclusion that whatever non-Sig or non-HK pistol they chose is actually a better pistol than the Sig or HK regardless of the price.

 

[1911shooter]

Browning Hi-Power, for the simple reason I dont have one and have shot my dads and love it.
It would never take the place of my 1911's but boy it would be nice to have one.

 

[MM60]

And no mention of Kimber 1911s

Kimber's only pistol is the 1911, and the 1911 is included in the poll.

Some prefer a single action trigger (as much as you may not like them and can't understand why somebody would) and thus prefer a 1911, or Hi-Power, or CZ.

I do prefer a single action trigger, just not a SAO trigger. I like having the options of DA and SA on each pistol. With a DA/SA pistol, you don't have to carry it cocked and locked; you can fire a quick first shot on DA, or you can manually cock the hammer and fire a SA first shot. All follow-up shots will be SA either way.

And some, you may find this hard to believe, have done all the research, compared features, shot them, and have come to the conclusion that whatever non-Sig or non-HK pistol they chose is actually a better pistol than the Sig or HK regardless of the price.

I have not fired every gun I mentioned, but I have fired some, and I have compared the features and specifications of all of them, as well as the quality and commonality/compatibility with firearms currently in use by U.S. military and law enforcement (See my new thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=489990) and my conclusion is that H&K's and Sig's (and Glock's, although I personally don't care for the design) are the highest quality and most practical choices.

JTQ mentioned the Beretta 92. I will acknowledge that the Beretta 92 is fairly common in the military. It is somewhat similar (in size and caliber) to the Sig P226, the HK USP Tactical, and the Glock 34. The Beretta is heavier unloaded than any of the other three pistols fully loaded. The Beretta has a permanently fixed front sight, whereas the other three pistols can be fitted with a variety of front and rear sights - including night sights (I know the Beretta front sight can be machined to accept a tritium lamp, but I wouldn't consider that to be a modular feature). The Beretta holds the same number of rounds as the Sig and H&K, and two less than the Glock. The Beretta has a manual slide-safety that is difficult to manipulate with the thumb while holding the grip. The H&K has a frame-safety that is easy to manipulate with the thumb while holding the grip. The Sig and Glock have no manual safety. It would seem that the Beretta would be the worst choice compared to the Glock, H&K, or Sig. I believe the military's use of the Beretta has a lot more to do with politics than quality and features.

Also, I would consider the H&K's and Sig's to be attractive firearms.

 

[texas bulldog]

MM60,

i think you've presented a lot of broad assumptions and opinions as facts in your posts.

for starters, you seem to think that a DA/SA trigger mechanism is somehow superior to DAO or SAO rather than just different. which one is best is highly subjective and results more from personal preference and intended use than one actually being better than the others. obviously, your preference is for DA/SA, but that doesn't make it best for all persons and all applications. the same could be said for your preference of grip angle, mag capacity, and user-operated controls.

similarly, you've basically asserted that the guns you personally like (sig & HK) are objectively superior to other makers that have similarly good reputations. that's an opinion, not a fact. believe it or not, lots of folks have done their own research and come to different conclusions that are just as valid as yours. i, for one, would have to strongly disagree with some of the makers you've identified as "mid-quality", and i think you may be confusing price with quality. time and again, it has been demonstrated that the two do not necessarily correlate.

do you have any actual, personal experience with each of the manufacturers you've decided (for all of us, apparently) are either "mid" or "low" quality? if so, you've handled a much greater variety of firearms than i have. that's certainly not impossible, but i get the feeling that you've dismissed some of these out-of-hand.

finally...you seem to think that "modern" is synonymous with quality. personally, i like some older designs and some newer ones. i certainly don't think that an older design is necessarily inferior to a newer one. that certainly can be the case, but it's far from a given. have you never heard the phrase "they just don't make 'em like they used to"? believe it or not, this is true for lots of different types of products and can apply to guns in some cases.



please note:
i did not vote in the poll, and i have attempted to refrain from from supporting or detracting from any particular make or model in this post to emphasize the point that these assertions are opinions and not facts.

 

[NG VI]

fnh fnp-9m

A phenomenal pistol, I love my FNP-9M and will never get rid of it. It's like a Sig 228, except not overweight, chubby, and it holds two more rounds. And it comes with three magazines. The best stock sights I have ever used, just plain white dots, but they are extremely low profile AND extremely easy to see and line up. Feels like FN designed the FNP specifically for me, without my knowledge.

 

[Gryffydd]

I think it's incredible that 29 people would most like to own the hundred-year-old official sidearm of WWI, but only 11 people would most like to own the modern official sidearm of the U.S. Navy SEALs.

I think it's incredible that you think you are the final word in what is "best" in handguns. You obviously despise 1911s, CZs, and Glocks, and love your Sig. Good for you. You claim as cons the exact features that others claim as pros fro those guns. Like what you like for your own reasons. Don't assume you know better than everyone else what they should use.

 

[verdun59]

mm60
Do you work in the current administration in Washington ?
Your assumptions are fuzzy to say the least. My advice is to buy
a CZ, shoot it and then decide if it's second rate.

 

[IdahoLT1]

MM60, i agee with what others have concluded about your posts. You are trying to make your opinion become fact. It just isnt going to happen. I could rip apart most of your posts and point on numerous errors/opinions, but it would just take too much time. You are a SIG nut-hugger and there is nothing wrong with that. But dont get all butt hurt when people dont agree with your opinions on why one manufacturer is better than another.

People like what they like for their reasons. Be proud of the fact that everyone has the right and freedom to like/buy/shoot whatever brand gun they want, for whatever their reason. I might not like the guns that some people buy/own/shoot but im not going to say theirs is obsolete because mine is better based on my opinions. Im also not going to say everyone should just buy/own/shoot the guns i feel are worthy. That my friend, would be crossing over into fascism.

 

[verdun59]

P.S.
I like my Kahr PM9 too.

 

[Ky Larry]

MM60, you need to shoot a CZ before you start judging their quality. I have over 20k rounds thru my CZ-75BD without a hiccup. If I get the drift of your criteria, you don't like CZ's because of their looks and where they're made. That makes as much sense as judging your neighbor on the color of his skin or the accent he speaks with. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[Mike J]

Olay, first off I voted Ruger in the poll because I didn't realize XD had been added otherwise I would have voted XD.
Secondly you said instead of a Corvette you would buy a Hummer. Well I'm more a Ford F-150 kind of guy. I own three centerfire semi's a XD, Ruger, and a Kel Tec. Each of them will perform if I need them to. I usually carry the XD it has been flawless accurate & reliable since day one. The Ruger did have one ammunition related malfunction a couple thousand rounds ago but is stone reliable with quality ammunition. The Kel Tec had some minor malfunctions out of the box but runs fine now. Everyone is different & should find what works for them. As far as trigger pulls, location of controls, manual safeties, ergonomics etc. all that is personal choice. Thank God we aren't all you trying to tell everyone else they should like your choices.

 

[MM60]

I went to the CZ forum and came upon this link under their FAQ section:
http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=14703.0
This information appears to be at most 10 years old, but I am not certain.

In the four links provided, I did not find CZ's to be in use by any U.S. police force, government agency, or military unit. They are listed as in use by police forces in Hungary, Lithuania, Poland, and Slovakia. If you read through all four of CZ Forum's lists, you will see that Glock's, H&K's, and Sig's are in widespread government use around the world. The Beretta 92 and various S&W models are also fairly common, but as I stated previously - I find these two to be lesser companies than the aforementioned three. CZ may produce quality firearms, but I see nothing particularly special about them, and there are better choices. Also, according to CZ Forum's lists, 1911's are about as common as CZ's in military and law enforcement anymore, and after 100 years - there are obviously better choices.

I am not certain if I worded my poll question correctly, because the results somewhat baffle me. I have created a new poll here, but please read the thread-starter first:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490124

 

[wesessiah]

^ yeah, i suppose chevy fleet vehicles are the best vehicles in the world since there are more of them on the road than anything else. you've obviously never been involved in law enforcement or would know what i've already mentioned in the first post on this page. btw, there are something like 60 countries that use cz as their primary sidearm, it's the most commonly used gun on a worldwide basis. those links barely have any listings anyway. you're awfully pretentious, and don't have much experience with firearms. don't say you do, because it's obvious to anyone who reads your posts in here that you don't. what are you basing quality on? the fact that you don't hear as much about some of these guns? as i already mentioned, if cz wasn't a top teir gun, the sp-01 wouldn't have the title of winningest gun in ipsc history, and they wouldn't be able to pull off nato certification with the p-01.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Deleted

 

[MM60]

wesessiah wrote:

you're awfully pretentious, and don't have much experience with firearms. don't say you do, because it's obvious to anyone who reads your posts in here that you don't.

Actually, I am a former Navy SEAL, and I've had extensive military training on a wide variety of firearms, including the Sig P226, H&K Mark 23, S&W 686, H&K MP5, Colt M4, Chinese AK-47, M14, Mark-43, Mark-46, M2 (single and twin), Remington 870, M79, M203, Mark-19, AT4, LAAW Rocket, and Carl Gustaf Recoilless Rifle, as well as a variety of hand grenades. I own or have owned the Ruger 22/45, Kel-Tec P32, Beretta Tomcat, Ruger LCP, Glock 19, H&K USP 9mm Compact, Sig Sauer P226 Navy, Springfield 1911 9mm, MPA-30 9mm, Ruger GP-100, Bushmaster Carbon-15 pistol, Encore Pro Hunter pistol in .22lr/.223Rem/.308Win/.410bore, Ruger 10/22, Ruger 77/22, Ruger Mini-14, Bushmaster Dissipator, Bushmaster Carbon-15 rifle, Ruger Mini-30, Vector AK underfolder, Norinco NHM-91, PTR-91 .308, Enfield No.III Jungle Carbine .308, Remington 700 LSSF .30-06, Remington 700 5R .308, Stoeger SxS 12ga, Fabarm FP6 12ga, and Mossberg 590 Mariner 12ga. I have also attended numerous large (600+ table) gun shows, where I handled and inspected the quality and features of a very wide variety of every type of firearm from many manufacturers.

So, to the contrary of many people's posts in my thread here, I actually have a lot of professional experience with many firearms, plus a lot of personal experience with many firearms, plus the benefits of military training through U.S. Naval Special Warfare, and I have CC'd regularly since 2002. I think that all of the above qualify me to pass judgment regarding which firearms are and are not the best choices to own and carry. I don't really care if the CZ SP-01 has been used to win IPSC matches; it's not commonly used by U.S. law enforcement, government, or military personnel, and I had scarcely heard the name mentioned prior to joining THR. CZ quality may be fine, but I would not buy one myself, and I do not understand why so many people on this forum think they're so great when there are definitely better choices out there. And the same thing goes for any 1911.