Pistol Choices

Which pistol make would you most like to own? (You don't have to own it already.)


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you're awfully pretentious
Actually, I am a former Navy SEAL
LOL. I'm sure...
Now, if you were really a firearms expert you would be a member of the rapid tactical response force for one of America's largest retail shopping centers.
I just realized you're that guy who thinks it takes 15 seconds to reload a revolver... :rolleyes:
 
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what is your criteria for better choices? my 75b has no play in the slide, measures in with matchgrade tolerances, and has never had any kind of stoppage. even from your claimed experience with the listed firearms, it barely nicks the surface, and doesn't qualify you to say any of those you haven't tried are inferior to those you have tried. you must not have paid attention to my comparison with chevy fleet vehicles; the government tends to go with the lowest bidder. my police department carries hk usp .45's, not because of function, but because of the $5 trade in option, and glock does the same thing. the companies more popular in the u.s. tend to give major discounts to police departments as a form of advertising. the m16/m-4 is probably the best example of a very widely used weapon by the government that typically places last on tests with other similar guns. in what ways do you consider cz (or even walther and browning) to be inferior to your favorites? based on price? internet popularity?

edit: link about the m16 testing showing the government knowingly uses weapons that can be outdone in common categories...
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20091125.aspx
 
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Gryffydd, this is for you:

My certificates of graduation from BUD/S, Army Airborne, SEAL Qualification Training, SERE, CQD 1, and Blackwater...
l_54d7638adda94aada47bff2bfe1ec8bb.png

And here are some documents that most people outside of NSWC probably could not easily acquire: Phase II and III training guides, Dive Physics guide, Hell Week gear lists, SEAL Core Values, and a NSWC Pre/Post Dive Checklist...
l_c01f084956134f4784f0efbdaac521dd.png

Also, I didn't say it takes 15 seconds to load a revolver. I said it would take about 15 seconds to load a revolver without the use of a speed-loader - especially in a SD situation in which the female in question, using a small .38 Special revolver, is under threat of attack while she is attempting to reload. I then stated that, if she were to carry the small revolver and a speed-loader, she might as well just carry a compact semi-auto - which would take up the same amount of space without presenting the difficulty of having to reload a cylinder after five or six shots. Just like in this thread - where people lack common sense about quality, people in the thread you mention seem to think that a small .38 special revolver would be a better CCW for a female than a semi-auto - despite the low capacity and comparitively more complicated reload procedure of the revolver. Wouldn't you rather your wife/daughter/sister/etc carry a compact semi-auto with, lets say, 12 rounds of .40 S&W than a small-framed revolver with 5 or 6 rounds of .38 special and a speed-loader? (Like I should even ask - since I'm sure many people here will always believe the revolver would be better for her no matter what contrary data and logic they're presented with. Many here really must think like one guy who wrote yesterday: "I never knew gun owners needed to be logical." Right. That's great.)

Wesessiah,
I typically only recommend commonly used, high quality firearms made by long-established companies. I would consider neither Walther nor Browning pistols to be among the more commonly used handguns in the United States, or in most other countries. I have handled and inspected both before, and I would consider them to be medium-quality, meaning that they are average and comparable to handguns made by most other decent firearms manufacturers. I do not like the fact that Browning's and the Walther PPK design are all steel (heavy). The Browning's hold fewer rounds than smaller and lighter designs by Sig, H&K, and Glock. Despite it's size, the Walther PPK only holds 7 rounds of .32ACP or .380ACP. I think that the polymer-framed Walther's are as ugly as Glocks, but that's a personal preference. The polymer-framed Walther's feature various oddities such as Glock-type triggers and slide-safeties. I find that all of these features and characteristics indicate inferiority compared to Sig's, H&K's, and actual Glocks. I have not really mentioned FN's yet in this thread because they were not a part of my initial data collection since nobody mentioned carrying one in the post where I acquired the list of pistols that I later used in this thread's poll. If you are wondering, I would consider FN to be a high-grade firearms manufacturer, but I would compare their Browning Hi-Power to Sig's 1911; it's not their greatest gun. I would consider the FNP9 to be FN's best pistol, as it is very high-quality, has very good features, and fires a common NATO round. I think the FN Five-Seven is equal in quality to the FNP9, but the ammo for the Five-Seven is much less common and more expensive. I have yet to hear of any U.S. LE/Military/Gov. agency using FN pistols, so I would still choose a Sig or H&K despite FN's very high quality.

I really don't plan to go through every mid-grade handgun ever made to list their disadvantages to high-grade pistols, so please don't ask me to compare any more.
 
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so, by your criteria for judging walther and browning, the cz sp-01 is superior to the sig p226? the decocker is far easier to use... i love sigs, but the decockers aren't the most ergonomic... it holds 3 more rounds in the stock mags, and wether you want to compare the 226's aluminum frame to the sp-01's either steel frame, or polymer frame, there is a 6 ounce difference either way with the 226 being in the middle. the safety models have frame mounted safeties. you may point to the more upgraded models higher capacity, or whatever of the blackwater, but there's always the 75 ts for cz.
 
I could buy 18 or 20-round magazines for my Sig P226 on Midway.com. The CZ SP-01's 18-round capacity is only due to a larger magazine that does not fit flush with the bottom of the grip. The standard mags have a 16-round capacity. So ok, you can fit one more round into a CZ-SP-01 with a standard mag than you can in the standard mag of a H&K or Sig of similar dimensions, and one less than you can in the standard mag of a Glock of similar dimensions. The Sig P226 decock lever is placed exactly where my right thumb touches the grip, so I don't know why it would be harder to use than the one on the CZ. As you stated, the weight of the Sig P226 falls between the weights of the polymer and steel framed CZ SP-01's, which is what anybody would expect: polymer<aluminum<steel. So the difference between the two comes back to the fact that the CZ is made in a former ComBloc country and is not widely used by U.S. Mil/LE/Gov, which means that parts and accessories for it are less abundant than for pistols in use by U.S. Mil/LE/Gov.

Now - really - I'm not performing any more comparisons on this thread.
 
^ and i could buy 20, 22, or 32 rounds mags, that's why i mentioned if you brought up the blackwater (20 rounds) i could bring up the ts... the standard mag for the sp-01 is 18, the 75b has a standard mag of 16 btw. the 18 rounder on the sp-01 sits flush, the base pad is just a little bigger than the stock sig mag. you make it seem as if cz parts/accessories are tough to come by. there are several smiths specializing in cz, most notably angus hobdell; czcustom.com has anything anyone could want for a cz along with ghostholster (which i think they've gone in together now.) even companies like ekf firedragon make threaded barrels for cz firearms.
 
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I didn't say CZ parts would be particularly difficult to acquire - they just aren't going to be as common here unless many U.S. Mil/LE/Gov agencies switch over - which I doubt they'll do. I could buy 32-round aftermarket mags for my Sig - it doesn't really matter. Any semi-auto pistol's grip is designed to hold a flush-fitting (including extended finger tab design) magazine that contains a specific number of rounds. The fact that the CZ SP-01 comes with a larger magazine than can be contained within it's grip means nothing.
 
i brought up the factory 18 round mags that come with the sp-01 because you used lower capacity as negative aspects for the browning and walther pistols. where are you getting your info about the 18 round magazine not fitting flush? the factory magazine is 18, not 16... it sits flush and has a rubber base pad. something that hasn't been brought up is comparing the designs as far as function goes. your two favorite makes have a very high bore axis compared to cz, or glock for that matter. this can make a significant difference in target acquisition, especially paired with the polymer frames/lightweight of an hk. this is probably the main contribution to seeing few hk and sig firearms at ipsc/uspsa in comparison to guns like glock or cz. on the topic of glock, i have nothing negative to say of their current guns, other than the fact i don't like their grip angles, but it's amazing to me they became so popular. back in the 80's it wasn't uncommon to see a glock slide flying down the range, or someone grabbing the slide and pulling it off.
 
if you're talking about the rubber basepad itself as not being flush, there are flat steel bases on factory mags, and i can take a pic of a 20 rounder with a flat base plate with the mag having the same dimensions of the 16 or 18 rounder... with a 16 round 75b mag for comparison.
 
The CZ website's own product description states that the SP-01 magazines hold 18 rounds, but that it can accept CZ 75 magazines that hold 16 rounds. How can the SP-01 accept a 16-round magazine that must fit flush, and then accept an 18 round magazine and still have it fit flush? That's like inserting a Glock 17 mag into a Glock 19 - it will fit and function fine, but it won't fit flush. It's also like selling a Glock 19 with Glock 17 mags and saying that the Glock 19 has a 17-round capacity.
If it's true that the 16, 18 and 20-round CZ mags have exactly the same external dimensions (not counting the rubber base pad), then why would CZ not just include 20-round mags with both guns and do away with the 16 and 18-rounders altogether?
 
the 75b still uses the old magazines... same external dimensions, different internal. i don't know why they are back and forth with the base plates, but with the compact 14 rounder, some come with a rubber base that's a little thicker, or a flat base plate... the rubber base pad is sold as an accessory that can be attached to the flat base, but some come with them. if you go back to the cz website, and look at the p-01 it has the flat base, then compare it to this picture with the rubber base pad. it's the same magazine, just with a rubber base pad attached to the flat base.

edit: the 10 round mags have the same external dimensions as the higher capacity mags... doesn't mean they need to be shorter.

edit2: we may not agree, but i have to say thanks for keeping it civil, discussions normally don't stay that way on the internet very long.

edit3: i had a dream that caused me to remember this... but there is a diy mod for increasing the capacity of the 16 round mags by 2.

P-01PCRleftsideSMALL.jpg
 
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'' ... would consider neither Walther nor Browning pistols to be among the more commonly used handguns in the United States, or in most other countries...''

Hmmm... ever hear of a little Island called England? The SAS? I wasn't going to get drawn into this,but as a professional,surely you realize that the BHP has an established reputation among some of the worlds top operators?
 
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might as well get in before the......well you know.

Im going to post this on the other thread too for good measure.

Disclaimer: My opinion is about to be thrown around below.

I don't really care if the CZ SP-01 has been used to win IPSC matches; it's not commonly used by U.S. law enforcement, government, or military personnel, and I had scarcely heard the name mentioned prior to joining THR. CZ quality may be fine, but I would not buy one myself, and I do not understand why so many people on this forum think they're so great when there are definitely better choices out there. And the same thing goes for any 1911.

Until this forum I had heard and experienced good things with CZ/BRNO rifles but never considered their pistols as anything special. I think the design is proven to the point where you can absolutely rely on them.

Even though this does seem like a thickly veiled bashing thread…I tend to agree there is an annoying amount of Glock and 1911 fanboyism. BUT why the heck not? They are good guns that have been around forever. That also brings up another point though. They are GOOD guns not GREAT guns. The best part about that though is that even if you have a 10,000 dollar Glock or 1911 it will still only be good not great.


I would choose a utilitarian Hummer 1 (Sig/H&K)

Glock should go along with this thought as well.

Browning Hi Powers are a premier 9mm pistol. Far better in reliability and style than any 1911, they are a continually underrated pistol primarily because of 1911 fanboyism, the incorrect notion that 9mm is too weak, and a high price tag for what you get. Once again though, they are a decades old design in which there are better options out there. It didn’t stop me from buying one.


I then stated that, if she were to carry the small revolver and a speed-loader, she might as well just carry a compact semi-auto

There are numerous advantages of a revolver over a semi auto when females are involved. Probably more advantages than disadvantages. For further information on the subject read The Snubby Revolver by Ed Lovette.
 
I've tried most of the rest, now I stick with the best :neener:
I am a die-hard Glock fan. They fit me perfectly, I shoot them better than the others....period. Other makes of pistols just don't interest me anymore.
 
Wesessiah, Like I said, I'm sure CZ quality is fine, but I'm not interested. I've got to say that it looks like the CZs have a thick finish - almost like you'd find on a powder-coated knife blade. If they have improved their magazines since their earlier designs - I would think it would be logical to include 20-round magazines with all models now.

BHP FAN, Although the SAS is definitely an elite group of commandos, it does not constitute the majority of the world's Mil/LE/Gov, and I know of no U.S. agency that uses the BHP.

Earlthegoat2, I agree with most of what you wrote. I also would consider Glock to be a "Hummer 1" handgun, and I would include the FNP/FN5.7 in that category as well. I don't have anything against Glock quality and reliability - I just personally don't care for the design, but I can understand why others like it. The 1911 fanboyism, on the other hand, is somewhat baffling to me. My wife carries a semi-auto; she refused to consider a revolver. I've never known any women who would rather have a revolver than a semi-auto.

Texas Bulldog: I've repeatedly stated that Glock, H&K, and Sig, and now FNP9/FN5.7 are all top-quality manufacturers. You don't need to bow to them. You would be hard pressed to find anything better though.
 
Sig autos, P226/228/229 anyway, are really bulky and oversized to me. They are great guns, yes, but I would never be able to carry one after having owned and carried my CZ 75D PCR, which holds one more round than the 9mm compact Sigs and is significantly (harr harr harr) more trim and has a superb grip shape. And the FNP-9M is way smaller than a Sig 229, despite having the same length barrel (ok one tenth of an inch shorter) and holding TWO more rounds in its standard, flush fitting magazine. I thought it might fit a 228/229/226 slide holster I had, but no dice, way smaller.

Does a compact Sig do anything the PCR or FNP don't? Absolutely not. Are they more reliable? How much more reliable than flawless through probably 1500-2000 rounds through the PCR and at least 700 through the FNP can a pistol get? I know that isn't a high round count, but flawless is as flawless does. And the FNP has an awesome trigger, doubt the Sig can offer any meaningful improvement on that, especially not on a carry gun.
 
NG VI,
I don't know if you saw the metaphor in my previous post, but "Hummer 1" handgun refers to those which are top-of-the-line and practical, whereas "Corvette" handgun refers to those which look fancy but are not very practical regardless of quality (or lack thereof). The FNP9/FN5.7, Glock, H&K, and Sig Sauer pistols would all fall under the "Hummer 1" category. The 1911 would fall under the "Corvette" category. I will concede to add a "Hummer 2/3" category to include the CZ and BHP pistols; some think they are top-of-the-line, but they don't have quite the legendary status of the other four for several reasons that I have already mentioned in previous posts. Somebody earlier had mentioned a "Chevy fleet" category. I would include within a category of "Ford/Chevy/GMC" handguns: Beretta, Bersa, Ruger, S&W, Springfield XD, Taurus, and Walther (not that there is anything wrong with any of these, but you do get what you pay for). In a "Saturn/Geo Tracker" category, I would include: Kahr and Kel-Tec. Colt revolvers might be considered to be the "Cadillacs", and the Magnum Research DE .50AE and IMI UZI 9mm could be considered the "Ferrari" and "Land Rover", respectively.
 
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mm60,
Color me stupid but I could have sworn that your original post asked "What's your everyday carry" and not "what's your everyday carry and I'll tell you what a piece of crap it is and why I wouldn't own it"
 
mm60, my objective was never to convince you to like cz; it was to let people reading, who may not know anything about cz, that it isn't some inferior brand.
 
My certificates of graduation from BUD/S, Army Airborne, SEAL Qualification Training, SERE, CQD 1, and Blackwater...
You're fighting a losing battle here because A. you haven't shown me anything you couldn't make in your mom's basement with Microsoft Publisher, and B. it wouldn't matter if you had done all that because while you may have managed to learn how to use firearms, you obviously didn't learn much about them.
 
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