Lobotomy Boy
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- Feb 16, 2004
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I'd like to know where you can pick up a Colt Delta Elite 10mm for under $500, Harve. I'll take two of them.
Pistol for hunting deer...
- Thread starter RooK
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WonderNine
member
Field Test: 9mm 127-gr. +P+ (Deer. Graphic)
The pics aren't there anymore, but it's an interesting read.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67389&highlight=penetration
The pics aren't there anymore, but it's an interesting read.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67389&highlight=penetration
Lowest price I've seen on a USED Delta Elite is $850. Somewhat expensive for a used gun, no? A Dan Wesson Razorback or Pointman is a much better deal and they're new, but still out of my range.
No way in heck am I going to use a 9mm on deer. Besides, the one in that post shot a 75lb deer (small) at a distance of 21 yards away and from what I can tell, the bullet didn't hit bone. If it had, chances are the deer would have gotten away. I'd rather use the .40 S&W or .45ACP than to even attempt that.
Recently, I've been looking at 1911 options. From what I've read on the .45 Super, it isn't too shabby and you can convert any decent .45acp 1911 to shoot it with about $30 or less worth of parts. Velocities from a 5" barrel can propel a 230gr bullet at 1100fps, and one guy on the 1911 forum was pushing 250gr gold dots at 1000fps within the cartridge's pressure limits. That should do fine out to 75 yards. Compare this to the $250 Rowland conversion or the extra pressure requirements it brings up.
If I do indeed go the 1911 route, I plan on playing around with a .400 Corbon barrel and some heavy loads in brass made from the .45 Super. The .400 originally operates at .45+P pressures (23,000psi) and only need 200fps to match the 10mm, which shouldn't be a problem at .45 Super pressures (28,000psi). Not to mention all of the personalizing I can do to a 1911.
No way in heck am I going to use a 9mm on deer. Besides, the one in that post shot a 75lb deer (small) at a distance of 21 yards away and from what I can tell, the bullet didn't hit bone. If it had, chances are the deer would have gotten away. I'd rather use the .40 S&W or .45ACP than to even attempt that.
Recently, I've been looking at 1911 options. From what I've read on the .45 Super, it isn't too shabby and you can convert any decent .45acp 1911 to shoot it with about $30 or less worth of parts. Velocities from a 5" barrel can propel a 230gr bullet at 1100fps, and one guy on the 1911 forum was pushing 250gr gold dots at 1000fps within the cartridge's pressure limits. That should do fine out to 75 yards. Compare this to the $250 Rowland conversion or the extra pressure requirements it brings up.
If I do indeed go the 1911 route, I plan on playing around with a .400 Corbon barrel and some heavy loads in brass made from the .45 Super. The .400 originally operates at .45+P pressures (23,000psi) and only need 200fps to match the 10mm, which shouldn't be a problem at .45 Super pressures (28,000psi). Not to mention all of the personalizing I can do to a 1911.
I have taken many mule deer up and two black bear with my Glock 20. Load it with DoubleTap 200gr. XTP's and do your part (aim), BOOM, meat in the pot.
BTW, I just looked at the Buffalo Bore website: Whoa! $1.25 per bullet for .41Mag???
-mike
BTW, I just looked at the Buffalo Bore website: Whoa! $1.25 per bullet for .41Mag???
-mike
Rook,
Another consideration for a gun might be the idea of shooting cast bullets in it for chucks, or anything else.
I know the Glock's Armorer's courses poo-poo'd cast bullets in their barrels, but that was several years ago. Maybe they still do.
The only 10mm's I had were the 1006 S&W, and the Colt Delta. Both shot well, and both shot cast, which is 90% of all my shooting anyway.
I still have my Glock 27 and although I have the moulds for 10mm, I don't shoot cast in it at all. I could if I wanted I guess, and I'd just cast them harder to make sure, but the way I think, why take the chance.
I just shoot a large saved quantity of jacketed through it for practice.
I've contemplated doing the same as you, building or buying an auto for hunting, but the field is narrow.
The Dan Wesson's have been a consideration, but again, as you mentioned, they're quite pricey.
But if you consider what a used Delta would cost, I guess the Dan Wesson's aren't so bad.
Personally. I wouldn't hunt deer with a .45 auto, not that it can't be done, just that it's not me.
Maybe the .357 SIG, but that's iffy.
The .45 Mag, as you stated, would be a decent option though. I'm not aware of to many autos available in that caliber, and the TC is the only gun that comes to mind presently.
I also post at MarkII.org........same name. Nice site.
Take care,
Bob
Another consideration for a gun might be the idea of shooting cast bullets in it for chucks, or anything else.
I know the Glock's Armorer's courses poo-poo'd cast bullets in their barrels, but that was several years ago. Maybe they still do.
The only 10mm's I had were the 1006 S&W, and the Colt Delta. Both shot well, and both shot cast, which is 90% of all my shooting anyway.
I still have my Glock 27 and although I have the moulds for 10mm, I don't shoot cast in it at all. I could if I wanted I guess, and I'd just cast them harder to make sure, but the way I think, why take the chance.
I just shoot a large saved quantity of jacketed through it for practice.
I've contemplated doing the same as you, building or buying an auto for hunting, but the field is narrow.
The Dan Wesson's have been a consideration, but again, as you mentioned, they're quite pricey.
But if you consider what a used Delta would cost, I guess the Dan Wesson's aren't so bad.
Personally. I wouldn't hunt deer with a .45 auto, not that it can't be done, just that it's not me.
Maybe the .357 SIG, but that's iffy.
The .45 Mag, as you stated, would be a decent option though. I'm not aware of to many autos available in that caliber, and the TC is the only gun that comes to mind presently.
I also post at MarkII.org........same name. Nice site.
Take care,
Bob
Black Snowman
Member
When I saw a Delta Elite for $650 I jumped on it. Come to think of it it might have been only $600. Those deals are few and far between and it was about a 80-90% gun.
Handgunr, I'll tell you what I've found out since I first posted this thread and what options there are for a semi-auto hunting handgun. These are current production firearms with the various solutions to get them ready for game hunting... Which is best? I don't know really and still haven't decided on one for myself.
10mm: With McNett's loads, this thing roars. He has a load of 200gr xtps out of a Glock 20 4.6" barrel at over 1200fps. A guy on Glock Talk used a Dan Wesson RZ-10 to take a nice sized elk with a 180gr gold dot. It was broadside shot and the bullet penetrated fully at 90~ yards. Guns available here are the Glock 20, DW Razorback, and the Witness. What I've seen, the Witness isn't very accurate and has questionable build for full-power loads. You'll need to buy a 20-22lb recoil spring for it out of the box. Glock 20 is a good option, accurate with tons of aftermarket barrels and parts. You might need to install a heftier recoil spring in it as well. Razorback has had nothing but glowing reports, I reckon it's good to go out of the box and is accurate.
.45 Super: This is basically a .45acp with higher pressures and will chamber in any current .45acp gun made. Velocities push a 230gr bullet from a 5" barrel at 1200fps and a 250gr at 1000-1100fps. You'll need to beef up springs in the 20lb range if you want to use it, pistols like the Ruger P90, Glock, HK USP, and Sig P220 should handle it fine. 1911's will need the heavier recoil spring plus a EGW firing pin stop, and a possible heavier mainspring. All are to slow down slide velocities. Texas Ammunition makes the ammo for those not wanting to reload.
.460 Rowland: Longer .45 Super loaded to higher pressures. Clark is the only one who sales the barrel/recoil spring combo and recommends use in only mainstream 1911 guns (but approves RIA 1911s from what I hear). Velocities to expect are around 1350fps for a 230gr bullet. Ammo is available from Georgia Arms.
.400 Corbon: Any .45 pistols you can get a conversion barrel for will work. EFK Firedragon has ones for all the firearms mentioned under the .45 Super. This cartridge approaches 10mm velocities but isn't quite there. Highest load I've seen is for the 180gr bullet at 1200fps, or about 150fps slower than the 10mm. I don't really know if using this cartridge is even needed if you can shoot the .45 Super. Once again, beef up the springs. Ammo is available from Corbon, but at slower speeds.
.40 Super: EFK has barrels for this cartridge in the above mentioned guns as well. This is a necked down .45 Win Mag cut to 10mm length and pushes a 200gr bullet over 1300fps. Only problem is, it's strictly a handloading affair, the hard way. Brass is no longer made, so Starline's .45 Win Mag brass will need to be reformed. Dies from Redding are $60 (RCBS wants $100+ for a 2 die set
) and you can size the brass is one run, then trim. Load data is hard to come by, but the guys on the reloading forum over at Glock Talk have experience and can give you the load information you need for the cartridge. It may currently be a wildcat, but it leaves the 10mm behind in velocities at normal pressures.
Ever since I started this thread, I have basicly narrowed down my current firearm choice to the Glock 20, Ruger P90, or RIA 1911 (dropped 10xx Smith idea due to lack of aftermarket support). All three fall within my budget and can shoot one of the above listed cartridges out of the box with just a spring change. I still have reservations about the Glock trigger for hunting. If I go with a .45, I might eventually grab a .40 Super barrel and go from there. Glocks still can't use lead bullets very well, soft bullets leave a lead ring in the barrel and cause (bad) problems. Aftermarket barrels solve it though. I'll be shooting them but bought and not mine, much more economical than jacketed ammo and as you stated, good for smaller game. Thanks for the nice comments on my site as well.
10mm: With McNett's loads, this thing roars. He has a load of 200gr xtps out of a Glock 20 4.6" barrel at over 1200fps. A guy on Glock Talk used a Dan Wesson RZ-10 to take a nice sized elk with a 180gr gold dot. It was broadside shot and the bullet penetrated fully at 90~ yards. Guns available here are the Glock 20, DW Razorback, and the Witness. What I've seen, the Witness isn't very accurate and has questionable build for full-power loads. You'll need to buy a 20-22lb recoil spring for it out of the box. Glock 20 is a good option, accurate with tons of aftermarket barrels and parts. You might need to install a heftier recoil spring in it as well. Razorback has had nothing but glowing reports, I reckon it's good to go out of the box and is accurate.
.45 Super: This is basically a .45acp with higher pressures and will chamber in any current .45acp gun made. Velocities push a 230gr bullet from a 5" barrel at 1200fps and a 250gr at 1000-1100fps. You'll need to beef up springs in the 20lb range if you want to use it, pistols like the Ruger P90, Glock, HK USP, and Sig P220 should handle it fine. 1911's will need the heavier recoil spring plus a EGW firing pin stop, and a possible heavier mainspring. All are to slow down slide velocities. Texas Ammunition makes the ammo for those not wanting to reload.
.460 Rowland: Longer .45 Super loaded to higher pressures. Clark is the only one who sales the barrel/recoil spring combo and recommends use in only mainstream 1911 guns (but approves RIA 1911s from what I hear). Velocities to expect are around 1350fps for a 230gr bullet. Ammo is available from Georgia Arms.
.400 Corbon: Any .45 pistols you can get a conversion barrel for will work. EFK Firedragon has ones for all the firearms mentioned under the .45 Super. This cartridge approaches 10mm velocities but isn't quite there. Highest load I've seen is for the 180gr bullet at 1200fps, or about 150fps slower than the 10mm. I don't really know if using this cartridge is even needed if you can shoot the .45 Super. Once again, beef up the springs. Ammo is available from Corbon, but at slower speeds.
.40 Super: EFK has barrels for this cartridge in the above mentioned guns as well. This is a necked down .45 Win Mag cut to 10mm length and pushes a 200gr bullet over 1300fps. Only problem is, it's strictly a handloading affair, the hard way. Brass is no longer made, so Starline's .45 Win Mag brass will need to be reformed. Dies from Redding are $60 (RCBS wants $100+ for a 2 die set
) and you can size the brass is one run, then trim. Load data is hard to come by, but the guys on the reloading forum over at Glock Talk have experience and can give you the load information you need for the cartridge. It may currently be a wildcat, but it leaves the 10mm behind in velocities at normal pressures.Ever since I started this thread, I have basicly narrowed down my current firearm choice to the Glock 20, Ruger P90, or RIA 1911 (dropped 10xx Smith idea due to lack of aftermarket support). All three fall within my budget and can shoot one of the above listed cartridges out of the box with just a spring change. I still have reservations about the Glock trigger for hunting. If I go with a .45, I might eventually grab a .40 Super barrel and go from there. Glocks still can't use lead bullets very well, soft bullets leave a lead ring in the barrel and cause (bad) problems. Aftermarket barrels solve it though. I'll be shooting them but bought and not mine, much more economical than jacketed ammo and as you stated, good for smaller game. Thanks for the nice comments on my site as well.
mrstang01
Member
Rook,
If I were you, I'd avoid the RIA 1911's if you're planning on hot rodding it to .45 Super levels. The frames are cast, and I doubt they'd hold up to the pounding. I'd look for a Norinco, or other forged frame, if you're looking for the lowest cost.
I know the Ruger is also cast, but their frame is a lot beefier than a 1911.
If I were you, I'd avoid the RIA 1911's if you're planning on hot rodding it to .45 Super levels. The frames are cast, and I doubt they'd hold up to the pounding. I'd look for a Norinco, or other forged frame, if you're looking for the lowest cost.
I know the Ruger is also cast, but their frame is a lot beefier than a 1911.
I never have and still don't get the whole 'cast' biased opinions. People are always stating that forged is stronger, but by how much? Is it the breaking limit of both so high that it would never matter? Fact is, I've personally never seen a cast gun break from normal usage.
The Dan Wesson 10mm (37,500psi) is a cast gun, but it takes the full pressure loads no problem. RIA (Armscor) also chambers the .38 Super (33,000psi) in their guns. It functions at pressures just under the 10mm. People who own them have nothing but praise. With that information, I see nothing wrong with running the .45 Super (28,000psi) in an RIA frame. So long as you take the precautions listed above to slow down the slide, I wouldn't have a problem shooting the 10mm in them.
The Dan Wesson 10mm (37,500psi) is a cast gun, but it takes the full pressure loads no problem. RIA (Armscor) also chambers the .38 Super (33,000psi) in their guns. It functions at pressures just under the 10mm. People who own them have nothing but praise. With that information, I see nothing wrong with running the .45 Super (28,000psi) in an RIA frame. So long as you take the precautions listed above to slow down the slide, I wouldn't have a problem shooting the 10mm in them.
ninjaj448
Member
Use a heavy caliber revolver. Hunting is probably the best use of a .44mag outside of making 'Dirty Harry' movies.
If you want to use a 10mm -- certainly a reasonable alternative -- I suggest you consider a Smith 610 revolver, rather than any semiautomatic. It would provide the inherent advantages of an outstanding-quality wheel gun plus the flexibility of .40 S&W and 10mm loads.
While I certainly prefer revolvers for white tail hunting, several calibers -- .357 magnum, 10mm, .41 magnum, .45 Colt, .44 magnum, and some others -- will all adequately function for deer hunting.
While I certainly prefer revolvers for white tail hunting, several calibers -- .357 magnum, 10mm, .41 magnum, .45 Colt, .44 magnum, and some others -- will all adequately function for deer hunting.
Thanks for the info Rook......
Due to the minor difficulties with some of the other calibers, I'd probably opt out of most of them.
The 45 Super looks like a nice deal, and it's too bad that the .45 Mag is relatively extinct.
For awhile I contemplated building a cartridge using various types of rifle brass, but it'd be like reinventing the wheel, as most of it's been done to death.
A lot of work for little gain I guess.
Pushing a 180gr bullet, preferably .40 cal or bigger, to velocities of 1400-1500 fps was a big focal point.
Most autos are pressure limited based on their design, but there's a whole lot out there to work with nowadays.
Something based on the tried & true 1911 frame seems to be a great platform to start with, I'm sure.
Thanks again,
Bob
Due to the minor difficulties with some of the other calibers, I'd probably opt out of most of them.
The 45 Super looks like a nice deal, and it's too bad that the .45 Mag is relatively extinct.
For awhile I contemplated building a cartridge using various types of rifle brass, but it'd be like reinventing the wheel, as most of it's been done to death.
A lot of work for little gain I guess.
Pushing a 180gr bullet, preferably .40 cal or bigger, to velocities of 1400-1500 fps was a big focal point.
Most autos are pressure limited based on their design, but there's a whole lot out there to work with nowadays.
Something based on the tried & true 1911 frame seems to be a great platform to start with, I'm sure.
Thanks again,
Bob
The .45 Win Mag had its problems based in the use of a 'longer than 1911' style action, so very few firearms were ever chambered for it.
A guy over on Glock Talk was telling about his experiements with hot 10mm loads. He used an aftermarket barrel and a custom 32lb dual recoil spring/guide rod in his Glock 20 and had the 10mm doing close to 1500fps with 200gr bullets. It would be nice to see what pressures he was pushing.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211246
Personally, I don't care if you or anyone else reinvents the wheel. So long as it works for you, that's all that matters. Otherwise we would have stopped redesigning firearms a long time ago.
A guy over on Glock Talk was telling about his experiements with hot 10mm loads. He used an aftermarket barrel and a custom 32lb dual recoil spring/guide rod in his Glock 20 and had the 10mm doing close to 1500fps with 200gr bullets. It would be nice to see what pressures he was pushing.
http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=211246
Personally, I don't care if you or anyone else reinvents the wheel. So long as it works for you, that's all that matters. Otherwise we would have stopped redesigning firearms a long time ago.
Rook,
Thanks, I'll read into it......never checked out the GT site anyway. I've worked with them for years at my job, and I still own a G27, but I've never been real "pro-Glock".
Like em', just not lusty over them.....maybe neanderthal, but I love my Rugers
TKS,
Bob
Thanks, I'll read into it......never checked out the GT site anyway. I've worked with them for years at my job, and I still own a G27, but I've never been real "pro-Glock".
Like em', just not lusty over them.....maybe neanderthal, but I love my Rugers
TKS,
Bob
I'm not a big Glock fan, I just think they're nice guns (trigger could be better). Where's the fight? I don't remember seeing any arguements, although if you try and bash a Glock they'll jump on you. Just like bashing a 1911 on a 1911 forum is a bad idea.
Visit the "10 Ring" forum for 10mm info.
Visit the "10 Ring" forum for 10mm info.
Red_SC
Member
Okay, this has got me thinking. If I wanted to convert my Ruger P90 to .45 Super, what would be involved? Switch out the springs for stiffer ones, and order some Starline brass. Would I need a new barrel, or can the factory one handle the pressure? Who has .45 Super barrels? And if I wanted to run some .45 ACP through it, all I would have to do is put the old recoil spring back in, correct?
Rook,
The heated thread is here.
After just a short browse, I ran across it. Seems like they are goosepiling the owner......
I participate on several boards, mostly Handloads.com., here and over at MkII.
Getting too old for the "debating club" anymore, and these sites are a good "cup of coffee & BS" types which are great.
Take care,
Bob
The heated thread is here.
After just a short browse, I ran across it. Seems like they are goosepiling the owner......
I participate on several boards, mostly Handloads.com., here and over at MkII.
Getting too old for the "debating club" anymore, and these sites are a good "cup of coffee & BS" types which are great.
Take care,
Bob
Red_SC, if the chamber is tight on the factory barrel (fired cases don't have a bulge at the feed ramp) then it will be fine to shoot the .45 Super. It's just little higher in pressure than a .45acp +p, brass is the same length as the .45acp. You'll also need a stiffer 20lb spring. I don't believe anyone makes one that high, but EFK Firedragon offers a dual-spring setup ($60) that will work, as well as various other barrels for the P90 if you feel like playing with the .400 Corbon or .40 Super.
One guy over at the Ruger forums has tried both the .400 CB and .45 Super in his P90 with the EFK dual-spring and said it works fine. Ammo can be bought from Texas Ammunition.
One guy over at the Ruger forums has tried both the .400 CB and .45 Super in his P90 with the EFK dual-spring and said it works fine. Ammo can be bought from Texas Ammunition.
Red_SC
Member
Rook, thanks for those links. I'm going to look into this. I've wanted to hunt with my P90 for several years, but have never felt really confident in the power. I'm sure it would kill a deer, but I'd like to find it, too. I think a Super conversion would do the trick nicely. And, for only the price of a new recoil spring and some Starline brass, it won't break the bank, either!
I think a Super conversion would do the trick nicely. And, for only the price of a new recoil spring and some Starline brass, it won't break the bank, either!- Status
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