Pistol for hunting deer...

[Brian Williams]

I got a S&W 27-2 with a 8 3/8 barrel for my deer hunting. Loaded with 170 gr hardcast water dropped LSWCGC pushed by to much 2400 does a great job and no Mags to be lost.


Shoot lead in your glock just make sure you remove any leading that might occur. Good lube helps, as does gaschecks

 

[stans]

357 Magnum with bullets of 158 to 180 grains is usually considered the minimum for deer. 10mm is a little better, but a long barreled 357 pretty much equals the 10mm until you consider the 10mm can use 200 grain bullets. Personally, I would pick a 44 magnum for a little bit of insurance.

 

[RooK]

I won't be taking normal capacity magazines with me to hunt with anyway. You're limited to ones with 10rnds each while hunting, so it's a non-issue. I probably will obtain some after the AWB sunsets. Then I can use it as my main 'carry around' handgun.

I'll be aiming for the Glock 20 when I get the money. Who makes some nice 6" barrels for them and how much do they run? Jeff, my uncle used to have one of the 10xx S&Ws, I could inquire and see if he still has it, he might be willing to let it go. I have yet to see one in a gun shop though.

The 10mm can push a 200gr bullet to 1200fps from a 5" barrel. The much touted .41mag can push a 210gr bullet to 1400fps in a 6" barrel. I'd say they're very close to each other and the 10mm should do fine out to 75 yards if the gun is accurate enough (as well as me). Both are far and beyond what a .357 can offer, it's no comparison.

 

[mrstang01]

Rook, I'm up towards Etown, and hadn't heard about the bear tranquing incident. I think that's great, and I hope the bears do make a come back in KY.

Hadn't thought about the 10xx series from S&W, but kyimports.com usually has them pretty cheap, I think they got a lot of the KSP trade-ins.

Ignore the nay-sayers, the plastic fantastic will do everything you want to do, and carry a lot better than the revolvers. After doing a lot of research, I decided on the G20 as my all around "puttzing around in the woods" gun. I love my .44's, but the G20 carries a lot lighter, and for this area, will do everything I need it to.

You can get the 6" barrels from several places, I believe DT has them as well. Be sure and check out Glocktalk's 10 ring, those guys have quite a bit of experience with the G20, and you can get actual hunting experiences from them as opposed to the gun shop commando opinions one tends to hear about the G20.

 

[JohnKSa]

Glock sells 6 inch "hunting barrels" for the Glock 20. They run something like $150 with shipping and all.

In spite of the way this thread has gone, hunting with autopistols is not a crazy idea--there are a good number of folks who do it. The Glock 20 is a decent choice.

 

[Handgunr]

Hunting with a 10mm ain't nuts at all.
I've taken several deer with my Delta a few years back and it did a decent job never the less.
Finding auto's designed for the task at hand is a little tough due to light demand, but they can be found.
I was in the process of buying a frame and building one as the Witness doesn't really appeal to me, but they're out there.

If you can put the bullet where it needs to go on a regular basis, that's all that matters.
Although I don't hunt with an auto now, it's been a strong consideration as of late.
I have several singles, bolts and revolvers, and since I hunt with handguns only, semi auto's were another avenue with which to enhance my enjoyment of the sport.
I cast and reload everything I shoot, and the 10mm has more in common with the .41 Mag, that it does with the .357.

Bob

 

[jc2]

I cast and reload everything I shoot, and the 10mm has more in common with the .41 Mag, that it does with the .357

Not hardly! :banghead:

The hottest 10mm factory loads (Double Tap) run neck and neck with the hottest .357 Magnum factory loads (Bufalo Bore) with the .357 Magnum running just slightly hotter (but not enough to make a difference). The hottest .41 Magnum loads deliver right at 50% MORE muzzle energy than the hottest 10mm. Don't make the mistake venturing into field thinking that 10mm has a lot in common .41 Magnum. It's basically an autoloading equivalent of the .357 Magnum--for all practical purposes, they are ballistic twins.

 

[RooK]

From what I see at Buffalo Bore, they just offer a .357 180gr loading at 1400fps from a 6" barrel. A 10mm could match that with the same bullet weight in a 6" barrel. But you seem to be forgetting that the 10mm punches a bigger hole to begin with and will make an even bigger one if using expanding projectiles. .41 loads are still around 200fps faster than the 10mm with comparable bullet weights.

When I get my money, I'll be checking out CDNN to see if they have anymore of those Glock 20s in stock. If not, I'll take a trip north to Ky Imports and see if they have any 10xx Smiths left. From there, we'll see. I've seen no one praising the Witness in this area, so that might be a sign to forget it all together. If anyone has any other suggestions, feel free to give them.

 

[jc2]

Hey Rook--for comparison:

Double Tap offers 180-grain 10mm at 1300 fps (676 fpe) out of the Glock 20.

Buffalo Bore offers 180-grain .357 Magnum at 1375 fps (756 fpe) out of four-inch S&W 686 Mountain Gun (similar size/class handgun).

So, in an apples to apples comparison in similar size/class handguns, the .357 Magnum will actually deliver about 75 fps more MV and 80 fpe more ME than the 10mm. FTR, "bigger hole" of the 10mm is four one hundreths of an inch bigger in diameter. For all practical purposes, the .357 Magnum and the 10mm are ballistic equals.

When you look at muzzle energy in similar weight bullets, the .41 Magnum tops the 10mm by a great deal--approximately 50%--from slightly less than 700 fpe for the 10mm to slightly more than 1000 fpe for the .41 Magnum--a significant difference in anyone's book.

Frankly, I like and shoot both--and I don't feel undergunned with either--but if you think the 10mm offers any better performance than the .357 Magnum, you're deceiving yourself (and it is no where close to the top .41 Magnum loads).

 

[Handgunr]

jc,


Looking at numbers in current manuals might show you by today's standards that the 10mm is supposedly "on par" with the .357, but they are far from "ballistic twins".
Most 10mm data that you see listed today are downloaded figures.

The 10mm originally had energies well above the 600ft lbs. mark and during it's debute, it was touted by Dick Metcalf as "having more in common with the .41 Mag".
Yeah, you look at today's numbers and you see .357 Magnum, but I remember when it was introduced and loaded, as you said, at it's hottest.
Like any other cartridge, it started out loaded hotter (and within safe standards) but was commercially cut back. So the 10mm.
In it's original loading, or what it can be safely handloaded to, it's substantially more powerful than the .357 Mag.

By the way, I thought that was how we judged the energy of a round anyway ? Loaded to it's safe but maximum potential. At least I do.

As far as heading out in the field with either three, I've never had a problem and taken game with all.

Bob

 

[jc2]

Bob -

I wasn't looking at manuals (or history books). I was comparing the best current factory loads in both--just stuff if you have a G20 or a 686, you get on the internet and order. With the top loads, they are ballistical equivalents.

As for Dick Metcalf, he's a gunwriter, and gun magazines get paid for saying nice things about guns--not necessarily accuracy. With anywhere near max loads, the .41 Magnum is not even the same league. To say, or imply, that the 10mm has more in common with (or is closer to) the .41 Magnum than the .357 Magnum is just not true (unless you are very selective in loads you compare--but best to best no way).

 

[Handgunr]

The whole point is.....the man wants a 10mm in an auto.....will it do the job......yes!
Does it matter if there's 100ft. lbs. difference....no!

I guess the bottom line is what matters to him and that was what the original question was about in the first place......

Bob

 

[Handgunr]

cj,

Most "listed" loadings for the .357 Mag showed energy ranges rarely above 600fpe.
The 10mm at 1400 fps, in the original Norma loadings showed energies in the 650-700fpe range.
Yes, the 41Mag is more powerful, but I said that the 10mm had "more in common with the .41 Mag, than the .357", meaning not only more energy, but a larger frontal diameter and heavier bullet weights as well.
Small differences in frontal diameter make a big difference on energies transposed to game. Like you said, the difference between the .357 and the 10mm was .043 difference.
Well the difference between the 10mm and the .41 Mag is only .010. Much closer in diameter as well.

By the way, I don't always take what gun writer's say as gospel, but I've found that a lot of what they do write about pans out through many of my experiences as well.
I tend to lean towards believing most of what they have to say.......otherwise Skeeter, Elmer and old Bill would've been devulged as kook's long ago.


Bob

 

[jc2]

Unfortunately, Skeeter, Bill and Elmer are long dead, and the current crop (Sanow, Thomas, Libourel, etc.) just isn't in the same class (though Metcalf is better than most).

I have no doubt the 10mm will do the job with deer and wouldn't hesitate to use as such. The .357 Magnum does fine on deer and the 10mm is in the same class, but the same limits and caveats apply to the 10mm as apply to the .357 Magnum when hunting deer.

As to .41 Magnum--I'd have to say the 300 to 400 fpe of energy the 10mm gives up to the .41 Magnum is just a little more significant than the four one hundreths of an inch in diameter the .357 Magnum gives up to the 10mm! Bullet design makes a much bigger "difference on energies transposed to game" than diameter (at the differences in diameter about which we are speaking)--and we won't talk about the advantages in bullet design the .357 Magnum has because it's not a bottom-feeder!

But, then, I guess, if you really want to put that much emphasis on diameter, I could concede the 10mm is in the same class as the old .41 Colt because there's only .01" difference in their diameter (and the old .41 Colt gives up even less ME to the 10mm than the 10mm does to the .41 Magnum). Of course, let's not forget the .22 Short only gives up .003" in diameter to the .223--surely they're in same class, aren't they?

If you are shooting a 10mm (with the best loads), it is roughly equivalent to the .357 Magnum (with the best loads). The .41 and .44 Magnum represents a significant increase in power and effectiveness over both of them. To imply otherwise is misleading.

 

[Handgunr]

jc,

from slightly less than 700 fpe for the 10mm to slightly more than 1000 fpe for the .41 Magnum

Respectfully so, I don't know where you're getting your energy numbers from but the .41 Mag, a 1000fpe, it don't make my friend.

My .44 Mag makes between 1000 and 1100 FPE with good warm loads, but the average .41 Mag SAAMI loads make 750-800fpe....period.
Check your good ole Sierra Manual, or whatever you'd prefer.

If you're getting 1000fpe from a .41 Mag load, whatever weight bullet you're using, hopefully it's in a Ruger, or something good and stout.
And like I said, the 10mm had initial figures in the mid 600 fpe range.

Not to continue on with symantics, but regarding Elmer and the boys, they probably forgot (in their time) more than you or I will ever know.
Dick Metcalf as far as being knowledible, was at the tail end of that crew and was a newbie when they were all still kickin'.
So, dead or alive, their information hasn't changed much, and they made due with a lot less than any of us have today.

I've been reading their articles for an easy 35 yrs. and I'd surely bet
that their guesses were better than most people's facts.

Bob

 

[jc2]

Bob -

My .44 Mag makes between 1000 and 1100 FPE with good warm loads, but the average .41 Mag SAAMI loads make 750-800fpe....period.

With all due respect, absolute and total male bovine excrement!

The following figures are for currently available factory SAAMI loads:

265 gr. LWN-GC - 1350 fps - 1072 ft. lbs.

230 gr. SWC (Keith-type) - 1450 fps - 1074 ft. lbs.

170 gr. JHP - 1650 fps - 1028 ft. lbs.

You might note (very closely please) that all exceed 1000 fpe of ME--even the 170-grain load. You might also not (again, very closely please) that even the lighter 170-grain load exceeds the 180-grain 10mm loads by 52%.

The .41 Magnum is in a totally different league than the 10mm (no matter how much you shuck an' jive).

I've yet to figure out why you're going on about Skeeter, Bill and Elmer. I'm sure they could look at above figures I draw the same conclusion I am. Sometimes, if you get yourself out on a limb, it's best just back up quietly.

 

[Handgunr]

cj,

I don't feel "out on a limb at all", and if you're getting those numbers, like I said, you've got em' a lot hotter than anything I've got listed. And I'm pretty well equipped with load data.
I don't have a problem admitting if I'm wrong, but I don't see the figures you're quoting.

Nothing I have shows loads past 1300 for anything over 220 grs.
Not Lyman, Sierra, Hornady or even old Ed Matunas' writings.

The Sierra manual shows their 170gr. JHP at a maximum of 1450fps, and 794 fpe.
So if you're beyond that, God Bless you and good luck.

Let's just agree to disagree here.....period.

Bottom line........the 10mm is sufficient for the requested task.

Bob


PS-Male bovine excrement........very PC!

 

[10mmman]

I've taken 3 or 4 big whitetails w/ a G20

No problem. I took two in one afternoon. I prefer to keep the shots under 35 yards, but the gun is plenty accurate beyond 50 yds. All shots except one was T&T broadside. The one that didn't make it out was in the far shoulder of a very large deer 40 yards from where I shot it. All but one was a one shot deal. That one would have most likely gone down from the first shot, but I felt the situation called for insurance.

I had a Witness. It didn't suite me, so I didn't shoot it enough to understand it's capability. I know the Glock 20 is up for it.

The fellas that point to DoubleTap for hunting ammo are right on the money.

X

 

[RooK]

The whole point is.....the man wants a 10mm in an auto.....will it do the job......yes!
Does it matter if there's 100ft. lbs. difference....no!

I guess the bottom line is what matters to him and that was what the original question was about in the first place......

Bob

Thank you! (I already have 3 revolvers: a 49, 629 and SBH... I would like to have a auto suitable for hunting medium game. Is that too much to ask?)

 

[JohnKSa]

I would like to have a auto suitable for hunting medium game. Is that too much to ask?

Apparently so...

 

[jc2]

Bob -

I agree it's kind of silly arguing about the max velocity/energy of the .41 Magnum when my both agree the 10mm is plenty adequate for the job.

If you do want to check out the .41 Magnum data I posted, here's the link:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#41mag

They are stand-up people with a good reputation. If they say that's what they're getting then that's what they're getting (though probably with a six-inch barrel--but then we are talking hunting loads). It does sound a little like data is somewhat dated.

 

[Handgunr]

jc,

I checked out the link. Thanks.

They're apparently using a 6 or 7" barrel, and most likely using powders of newer design like Lil' Gun or something.
I know "JohnK" from Handloads.com, and others over there speak highly of Lil' Gun and it's ability to create far higher velocities, but getting nowhere near the pressures.
I cast and use probably better than a dozen different .44 designs, of which, the lighter 215gr Lyman SWCGC (I believe) is the only one that I can push towards the 1600fps mark.
Admittedly, I haven't worked with Lil Gun yet as my supply of similar powders is still healthy, but soon.

I didn't mean to claim that it wasn't possible to push the .41 to those speeds with the weights listed (with newer powders nowadays, go figure), just that it didn't jive within all the data that I have, most of which is relatively up to date.
Using bullet swaging dies, I've made jacketed designs far lighter than listed commercially, and which encompass much higher velocities and explosive results on varmints, using handguns.
But, the reduced weights allowed the greater velocities with standard powders.

BuffaloBore apparently has a decent recipe. Wonder what BHN their bullets are ? Gotta be 21 to 25BHN to handle those speeds. Gaschecks would allow a little less though.


Take care,
Bob

 

[Dr.Rob]

Let's stay civil folks...

A reasonably priced 10mm set up for hunting?

Doesn't Witness make a long barreled 10mm pistol?

With a soft point bullet and a Kentucky Whitetail... I don't see why NOT.

I would pick something different where I hunt, namely a Dan Wesson in 357 Maximum, but if it's legal where you live... sure why not give it a try.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Ask a simple (and perfectly reasonable) question...

I would definitely pass on the Witness. I'd look for a used Glock 20, which is an exceptional gun, but I agree that if your budget is tight you would do well to find a Smith & Wesson 1006 or 1076. I've put over 500 rounds through both a 1006 and a G20, and I'd have a hard time picking between one or the other based on performance. Both would make excellent deer slayers.

I plan to buy a 1006, probably before year's end. I picked the Smith over the Glock for several reasons. First and foremost is price--I can find better deals on used 1006s (Smith no longer produces the gun) than on used G20s. Second, I already have a Glock 21 and just want something different (the frames on the 20 and 21 are identical). Third, because the Smith is out of production--it's a gun that was ahead of its time--it's a bit more unique than the Glock.

But those are my personal reasons. I don't think you'll go wrong with either.

 

[Harve Curry]

Rook,

If you want a 10mm auto for deer hunting get the Colt Delta Elite 10mm. It's not the new circumsized 40S&W version, Jeff Cooper's original Bren Ten cartridge.
A lion/bear hunter friend and Jeff Cooper Gunsite grad carries one everywhere horseback. I'm always thinking he's going to lose that thing because he never ties it in, just slips in a old leather strong side holster.

I carry a 44 special handloads are 180gr JHP at 1050fps from a 4.75" barrel Colt SA. It is plenty for deer, bear, coyotes and such. And I strap it down.