Poor manners...

[Dulvarian]

I was at a public outdoor range today...

Setup, shoot. I'm sighting in my new CZ-527 in .223, my friend is sighting in a Rem 700 in .308. Pleasant time being had by all. On one end, there's a dad training his son on the finer points of long distance shooting out of an AR style rifle using irons, prior to son's deployment. Other end is an elderly gentleman shooting some hand rolls and collecting brass.

In rolls Bubba Sr, and Jr 1 and Jr 2. They have some decent guns, the only model I recall off the top of my head was a Beretta Storm with an Aimpoint. Now, I don't use the term /bubba/ lightly, nor in jest.

When they first came to the range, Sr was pontificating on all the 'work' he had done on all the guns. None of the guns would fire from a full magazine, double feeding problems, jams. They had pretty much everything but a kaboom. While Sr is further pontificating, I am getting showered by brass and Sr is continually asking for supplies from the guys at one end. About every two minutes, one of the guns would have some sort of failure.

Now, I know it was passive aggressive to simply toss all of the brass back in their direction. I would just get settled in to start shooting by the time they would get whatever malfunction fixed or a magazine reloaded or a gun swap, maybe one or two shots off before the shower would start again. In over a half an hour period, I didn't manage to get a single string of 5 shots off. I really have idea if half the shots were where I wanted to put them when I pulled the trigger, or if I twitched from the surprise of getting smacked with brass. The set stage on the trigger on it is extremely light.

I have never had brass down my shirt before. Ladies who have, I can certainly feel for you now. I will never forget that piece of advice with a female shooter ever again. I had quite a few powder marks where the shells were hitting on my arm, my face, my hat. Only one left a burn. (I had just put my ballcap on so I wouldn't get hit in the face and one lodged in my elbow while I was lining up a shot. Didn't realize it hadn't just bounced off for a second.) When I sat up from that one, I took one right on the lens of my glasses. At this point, I'm catching brass in the air and tossing it or slapping them out of the air.

After the burn, I just picked all of my gear up and moved down several tables. My friend checked to make sure I wasn't going to do anything rash, and one of the two other older men came over to tell me he wasn't sure how I had tolerated it that long. Somehow, my moving my gear, and everyone else staring at him/them, might have finally gotten through. We went cold, I moved my targets over, and by the time I got back, they were packing up to go. Maybe someone said something to them. I don't know. I never said a word. None of the words I would have said would have accomplished anything.

Moral of the story? Don't be a jerk. Best part of the story is that they normally went to the other outdoor public range, but for some reason came to the one I was at. Maybe the Lord thought I needed some patience.

There were two open benches to the right of us, they could have easily set up the pile of trash they were shooting at over there. (I'm being harsh, a lot of us shoot water bottles. Heck, I did.) For all of Bubba's skills at 'fixing' things, he apparently had no idea that every single one of the guns he brought ejected to the right. It was especially nice when only one of them was shooting, and would switch sides to stand next to me. Two feet away. Really?

I don't think I can tolerate that ever again. Done with public ranges. All I learned about my new rifle was that it likes 69gr PRVI Match better than 75gr Wolf Match. Guess which one I am out of?

Sorry everyone, just needed to vent. Maybe remind people to think about where there brass is going, be nice to your fellow shooter. The average tacticool mall-ninja has more common courtesy than what I saw. Probably twenty to twenty-five shooters were out there with me today, and he was the only negative. (Well, that and the two explosive targets, but that's a different discussion.)

 

[gunnutery]

I have felt your pain. I've had a jammed gun pointed right at me and my dad while they were trying to clear the malfunction. I yelled at them just enough to get through their earplugs and then motioned down range. They quickly realized what they had done.

My MAK and my Mini 14 throw brass very well, so I always make sure of my placement.

 

[clancy12]

You definitely learn to know where your brass is going if you reload. Pain in the ___ compared to revolvers, but oh well. Why didn't you just go to their left and see if you could hit them with your brass when you operate the bolt? Not real polite, but it sounds like they're asking for that and more.

 

[Nushif]

Moral of the story? Don't be a jerk.

Hrm. I know you came here to vent, but this is kind of what I got from this:

You were at Zen at the range having fun.
Some people came in and they couldn't make their guns work. This has no bearing on what is considered good form.
They start shooting and their brass hits you.
You become agitated. Your shooting goes downhill.
You start throwing brass back at them.
You get up and leave in a huff.
They leave for unknown reasons.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing in your narrative about communicating directly with them.
Did you tell them "Hey, your rbass keeps hitting me and it's really killing my Zen."

I don't know why, but for some reason people seem to think someone at a range is unapproachable and shall not be talked at under punishment of ... I don't know. But I think a good deal of de-escalating can be done via direct communication rather than some imagined code of conduct that everyone may or may not even be aware of.

Or am I totally off base here?

 

[jjjjeremy]

Although the problem may have been avoided with a kind remark, I think the point is that it shouldn't have to happen at all. "Bubba" should have noticed that his brass was hitting someone else, or at least getting close, when he was picking it up. I'm hope that he was picking it up, reloader or not.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I like the simple, "excuse me, you are hitting me with your brass"

How and what happens depends on the remarks, I have done the VERY loud cease fire thing, once we were cold I just turned to him and told em, well, I'm sure you won't mind taking a few minute while I move my stuff.

 

[grumpy66]

You weren't in your "bubble".
When I am working up loads, or just getting some trigger time, nothing bothers me.

The only thing I hear is the "CEASE FIRE".

I had a father and son set up next to me while testing a new rifle, with a .22 AR somethingorother.

I'm doing my thing, the kid is doing his( filling my shirt pocket with brass).
My buddy said he heard the dad say "let 'er rip", I was still making clover leafs at 100yds.

Afterwards, I asked them if they wanted the pocketfull of hulls back with a smile and a handshake.

 

[PCGS65]

Just a couple questions for you.
1) How do you prevent brass from ejecting from an auto loader? Yes I know they make deflectors for rifles but haven't heard of them for handguns, assuming that's what bubba was using.
2) Maybe the range wasn't full and bubba could have moved to a different station to avoid hitting you with his brass? But what happens when the range is full and there's people next to each other all the way down the line?
3) Does the range have fences? For deflecting the brass? The one I go to does but only at the rifle range.
4) Why would this not happen at a private range?

Sounds like to me you just had a chip or should I say brass on your shoulder.

 

[Sig88]

Just a couple questions for you.
1) How do you prevent brass from ejecting from an auto loader? Yes I know they make deflectors for rifles but haven't heard of them for handguns, assuming that's what bubba was using.
2) Maybe the range wasn't full and bubba could have moved to a different station to avoid hitting you with his brass? But what happens when the range is full and there's people next to each other all the way down the line?
3) Does the range have fences? For deflecting the brass? The one I go to does but only at the rifle range.
4) Why would this not happen at a private range?

Sounds like to me you just had a chip or should I say brass on your shoulder.

2)Someone arriving after those guys set-up is immaterial. If those shooters had been considerate of flying brass and someone set-up next to them then that is too bad. They were there first, just like the OP was in his position first.

4)Depends on the private range. If you have consideration for your fellow shooters/members then maybe it wouldn't happen as often, but if there is only one table open then you obviously can't prevent anything like this from happening. Unless of course you have an AR, you can buy a brass catcher.

Just my two cents

 

[PCGS65]

2)Someone arriving after those guys set-up is immaterial. If those shooters had been considerate of flying brass and someone set-up next to them then that is too bad. They were there first, just like the OP was in his position first.

4)Depends on the private range. If you have consideration for your fellow shooters/members then maybe it wouldn't happen as often, but if there is only one table open then you obviously can't prevent anything like this from happening. Unless of course you have an AR, you can buy a brass catcher.

2) My M1 garands eject brass up to 20' if there's only 15' between people I'm not driving back home.

4) Again we don't know how crowded the range was. Sounds like bubba could have moved somewhere else but the world is full of idiots.
However I don't mind brass flying at me. Actually I like it but will not move to have it intentionally hit me just to be clear on the issue.

It's a range for goodness sake, flying brass is always going to happen. Get used to it.

 

[Cryogaijin]

I own a 10mm Witness with a 22# wolff spring on it. I fire fullhouse rounds. That ejects brass farther than any firearm I've ever witnessed. (heh) Because of this I always fire as far right on the range as possible.

The one time someone squeezed in between me and the edge of the range I warned 'em about flying brass. The blew me off until a couple magazines later I get a "you really weren't kidding on that, were you?"

Heh.

 

[12131]

Originally posted by Nushif:

Hrm. I know you came here to vent, but this is kind of what I got from this:

You were at Zen at the range having fun.
Some people came in and they couldn't make their guns work. This has no bearing on what is considered good form.
They start shooting and their brass hits you.
You become agitated. Your shooting goes downhill.
You start throwing brass back at them.
You get up and leave in a huff.
They leave for unknown reasons.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing in your narrative about communicating directly with them.
Did you tell them "Hey, your rbass keeps hitting me and it's really killing my Zen."

I don't know why, but for some reason people seem to think someone at a range is unapproachable and shall not be talked at under punishment of ... I don't know. But I think a good deal of de-escalating can be done via direct communication rather than some imagined code of conduct that everyone may or may not even be aware of.

Or am I totally off base here?

That's how I see it, also.

 

[8654Maine]

Attention to detail would have been nice by the father and sons.

But it is a public range. You can't choose.

I've learned to shoot with flying brass all over me.

It's only a distraction if you let it.

 

[bigfatdave]

You could always buy a gun that throws brass to the left

I've been known to break out the P.1 for just that reason (no, I don't take it for just that use, but I do pick when it comes out of the bag)

I understand that brass pelting you is annoying, but autoloaders throw brass, and they are quite common. If the tables are too close together, lobby for some barriers, set up on the far left, or bring something to deflect brass. If everyone is shooting off of a bench, setting up a deflector on the bench is easiest, as it doesn't need to be very large, I've just used a backpack and my range box as a deflector before, with success both in retaining brass and in not sending it into other shooters on a line.

If you want a more secluded setup and more control over it, join a private range with more room between shooters, or get used to shooting prone from under the bench at that public one.

 

[Lex Luthier]

All indoor ranges have baffles between shooting lanes. It is the responsibility of the shooter to remain in a forward position so their brass deflects and remains within their allotted lane space. Of course there will be exceptions, but a clear suggestion to move forward a little is not rude, though some guys at public ranges believe their boots and hats automatically appear when they unload their range bags. We should all sweep the brass down range every time too, but that menial task is often neglected in the adrenaline rush.

While we may not want the job, but at one time or another all of are called to help redirect our brothers and sisters in the world, and the gun range is a perfect exception. The recipient of your grace just might become a new friend who wants to learn, whom no one has actually taken the time to help him.

 

[youngda9]

Feel better ? :|

 

[Mags]

OMG you were hit by brass at gasp a shooting range! How did you ever tolerate all the loud noises there without snapping?

 

[dirtykid]

4-ways to deal with this.
1). Only go to ranges when they are "peacefull"
2). as soon as they start to set-up,politely mention that their brass is headed your direction and tell them you already took a shower this morning.
3). (my favorite) pop a 30rd mag into your AR and set up on THEIR left, it wont take long for them to realize what is happening,,
4) I take-out my REM-700 VTR .243 (with up-wards facing muzzle-brakes) and let some hot loads go off ,, with the steel roofs overhead on our shooting area i have seen people "jump", even with ear plugs because of the percussion, move closer to them to get the desired effect,,

 

[buck460XVR]

Hrm. I know you came here to vent, but this is kind of what I got from this:

You were at Zen at the range having fun.
Some people came in and they couldn't make their guns work. This has no bearing on what is considered good form.
They start shooting and their brass hits you.
You become agitated. Your shooting goes downhill.
You start throwing brass back at them.
You get up and leave in a huff.
They leave for unknown reasons.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I saw nothing in your narrative about communicating directly with them.
Did you tell them "Hey, your rbass keeps hitting me and it's really killing my Zen."

I don't know why, but for some reason people seem to think someone at a range is unapproachable and shall not be talked at under punishment of ... I don't know. But I think a good deal of de-escalating can be done via direct communication rather than some imagined code of conduct that everyone may or may not even be aware of.

Or am I totally off base here?

That's how I see it, also.

................same here.

Moral of the story? Don't be a jerk.

...........or, let he with no sin cast the first brass.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I think you did the right thing by just moving and keeping quiet. Like you said, you were pissed off at the time, and nothing you would have said would have made the situation any better. If these guys had this little common sense, it's likely that nothing you would have said would have stuck.

Common courtesy is what keeps us all from murdering one another. Returning idiocy with anger only results in a ruined day. Consequently, this type of thing is precisely why I do all my shooting out in the woods, and not at ranges. I know this isn't an option for everyone though.

However, saying something to them early on, before you got angry, probably would have helped the situation. If they didn't care at that point, well then to them.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

I Must Be Weird

Must be something wrong with me.

When I show up at the range, if there's a guy right next to my position -- either side -- I introduce myself, ask what they're shooting, ask if there's anything going on I should know about, and tell them to holler if they need anything from me.

Sometimes I'll ask what they're shooting (if it's not obvious) and every so often I'll offer to let them fire a few rounds from mine, if it seems they might be interested.

I have been known to move my position down a bit if I find I'm near a grouch or a jerk (subjective terms, but if you don't receive communication well, I'm not likely to want to shoot next to you).

I spent several minutes with a man who, at first blush, seemed to be a real grouch. He was shooting from a wheelchair and, when he had to get up, walked with considerable difficulty. Basically, he just had no patience with anyone's pity. When I asked him to explain how his black powder revolver worked, and what was up with the grease, he realized I was treating him as I would anyone else. He warmed up and we had a lively discussion about black powder and, later, about his Para Ordinance .45 autos. When he was done shooting, I asked his permission to help him carry stuff back to his truck. He bristled a little at first, but I pointed out it would save him a trip and, "hey, you'd do the same for me." He grinned at that.

No, I don't really like shooting with grumpy people, but I take the time to see who's grumpy and who's an ass. And if I have to choose between a grouch and a self-important ass, I'll take the grouch every time.

 

[Nushif]

Must be something wrong with me.

If you're wrong, I am, too.

 

[hso]

It probably would have been good to ask them to move down out of brass range when they broke out the semis to avoid the whole problem. There are plenty of folks that are completely oblivious to what they are doing.

Your moving without chewing them out is the next best thing.

 

[kk0g]

All I can say is if getting pelted with brass bothers you, you better not shoot in any matches or training classes where shooters are all on the line simultaneously, it's just one of the costs of "doing business".

 

[Dulvarian]

It wasn't my Zen that was being bothered. It was frustrating, and I actually had the insane thought that simply trying to focus on my shooting while being distracted would assist me in focusing on the basics. When I started tossing the brass off my bench, I probably should have said something or just moved.

A few casings my way isn't really worth commenting on. If I am in the middle of something like reloading mags and it happens, I catch them. It's amusing. A reflex game. The fact that it doesn't normally bother me is why I didn't say anything at first.

I call BS that brass hitting you in the face doesn't distract you. Especially off the lens of your glasses while you are looking through a scope. Arms, t-shirt, pants, etc, sure. I'll say that doesn't really bother me either.

I didn't leave in a huff. I came to the realization that I probably should have said something, so instead I just picked up my stuff and moved to the same open table that was there when they showed up. In fact, I never understood why they wouldn't have set up there in the first place. I continued shooting at my targets, as even with the change in position, I was still shooting into the berm. I didn't approach anyone. The other shooters approached me.

I actually know where all of my guns throw brass, and I have never fired while someone else was shooting and they were in the line of where my brass will go. Unwritten rule? No. Common courtesy? Yes. Your thoughts on dividers is great, but there are certain rounds that I can put casings over a range divider with, typically right onto the other shooter. Would you really ever stand right next to some shooting a rifle on a bench without realizing that you were covering the guy with brass? Or without taking the empty bench where it wouldn't have been an issue? The two benches to our right were empty. And the old guy at that end wasn't do anything other than picking up brass at the time, no guns out, just sitting on the railing.

And honestly, Jr 1 and Jr 2 had no clue about where the brass was going. There were several times that they were firing with the support bream 6x6 was directly in the path of the ejection arc. Right back into their own faces. Sr didn't notice that to correct either. If you aren't smart enough to figure out why you are pelting yourself in your own face with brass means I doubt you are going to be able to comprehend that you are starting to get on my nerves by doing the same thing to me.

Would you try to pull into a parking space where someone was getting into or out of their car in the adjacent space when there are other spots 2 spaces down? What does common courtesy tell you? Is there a traffic rule or law that prevents you from pulling in there? I would wager that answer is no. Change roles. You are the person getting out of the car and someone pulls in while you are unloading your wife and kids. Are you going to be upset? I'm not asking you what you are going to do when a meteorite destroys your classic car. That's a real scenario with some pretty clear parallels (the parking lot, not the meteor, lol).

Parking lots happen a lot more than shooting ranges. Are you telling me that the basic common courtesies somehow don't apply when you are in certain places but not in others? I'm going to guess that based on some of the posts here you just shrug your shoulders when someone dings your door in a parking lot, or runs a shopping cart into you at a grocery store. Repeatedly. I mean, you both have a right to be there, and it's no big deal? I mean, these things happen.