Possible "Iggorant Noob" Question - Boresighting

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Cyborg

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If, instead of shooting at a target (at half a buck a round) I were to place a laser in the chamber and align the reticule of my to match the laser point at 25 yards? Would THAT not zero the scope for 25 (and also 100) yards?

I'm not cheap, folks, just not rich.

I know the people here are highly experienced and competent rifle shooters. I would like to read your opinions.

Equipment:
FNAR .308 Win/7.62 NATO
20" Bbl

Thanks in advance.
 
Laser bore sights are out there and give a decent general zero. However, a good zero depends as much on ammo as it does the actual sighting on a perfectly straight trajectory.

I also haven't looked at a .308 trajectory table for some time but that is also very subject to ammunition choice.

Long story short, laser bore sights work to get you in the general area, but your zero will still have to be revised.
 
no it would not give you a true zero in any way. you will have to go shoot it to zero in the sights.
 
it would get you "on paper" but no, it won't zero it. you will have to shoot it.
 
When I bore sight I place my rifle in a vise with the bolt removed. I tape a sheet of paper to a wall and use a level to draw a plumb vertical line on it with a black marker. I sight thru the bore and center the vertical line in the bore so it goes from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Then I adjust the scope so the vertical cross hair lines up with the vertical line on the paper. This method usually gets me within 1 or 2 clicks for my windage adjustment at 100 yards.

I've also used this method to bore sight AR iron sights.

I don't bother attempting to adjust elevation until I get to the range.
 
When I bore sight I place my rifle in a vise with the bolt removed. I tape a sheet of paper to a wall and use a level to draw a plumb vertical line on it with a black marker. I sight thru the bore and center the vertical line in the bore so it goes from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock. Then I adjust the scope so the vertical cross hair lines up with the vertical line on the paper. This method usually gets me within 1 or 2 clicks for my windage adjustment at 100 yards.

I've also used this method to bore sight AR iron sights.

I don't bother attempting to adjust elevation until I get to the range.

i did this with both of my AR uppers. Works well for getting close before you hit the range.

After "sighting" in this way, its usually only a few shots after cold bore to get it zero'd.

or you can do a cold bore one shot zero.
 
Cyborg
Possible "Iggorant Noob" Question - Boresighting

If you sight in with a laser bore sighter at 25 yards, you will definitely need to shoot to zero for 100 yards. In fact, I would start shooting at 25 yards and move outward. Laser boresighters are nice tools if you're already at the range mounting a scope. If you're doing it in your basement then it isn't so useful. I personally think that the old fashion optical boresighters work better if you don't have access to a long distance.
 
Thanks, folks. The scenario I was considering was to get the relief set at the house and go to the range to zero the scope - actually I have two, one for short range, 100 yds and less, and a second for longer range.

What I am trying to avoid is wasting a lot of ammunition getting up to a real zero. When I tried to zero the first sight I bought - a modest priced reflex sight, I wasted a ton of expensive ammo getting nowhere. I finally got another shooter to watch where the round actually went. For some reason the rifle/sight combo was shooting TERRIBLY high. I finally got the sight zeroed reasonably well (I am not yet a very good rifle shot but am learning) but in the process p***ed away upwards of $50 worth of the cheapest usable ammo I could get - the surplus German DAG stuff. Some of you guys might consider $50 nothing but to me it is still real money. In any case the DAG ammo - while not match grade - is of sufficient quality for general use.

My hope was that I could use the laser to get the scope(s) adjusted for 25 yards - at the range, of course - and then only need to crank in a small amount of adjustment by sending projectiles downrange. I try to go to the range when the crosswind is minimal.

Also, I need to have it well zeroed for 25 yds because that is the range at which they shoot at Appleseed. Once I have passed the Appleseed test, I can go on to work on proficiency at 100 yds with the low power (4X) scope and then go for longer ranges with the 10X scope.

My ultimate goal is to get near 1 MOA patterns at a shooter's quarter mile. Getting danged hard to see something well enough to HIT it much beyond that anyhow. Getting old has been especially hard on my eyes.

So? What do you think?
 
I've never found that any type of bore sight device has ever saved me more than 1 round per sight in. None at all with a bolt rifle. With a bolt gun I simply look through the bore at a target set up at 50 yards and adjust the scope until they are in alignment. My 1st shot will be within a couple of inches. I've never found a tool that was any closer. I can be zeroed within 3 shots with a bolt gun at 100 yards with a bolt gun. No more than 4 shots with any other action.

On a non-bolt rifle all you have to do is hit paper with the first shot then measure the distance you are from zero. Unless your scope is junk you can simply count clicks and have shot #2 within a couple of inches at 50 yards.

To make sure you hit paper with the first shot use a large sheet of paper for your target or move to within 25 yards.
 
Like taliv says, bore sighting with any method or tool just gets you on paper. You still have to sight in with whatever ammo shoots best out of your rifle. Of course, if you're not reloading, you'll have to try a box of as many brands and bullet weights as you can to find that ammo. The price of it means nothing.
 
What I use mine for is back-up scopes. Get on paper how ever you want and zero your scope THEN insert the bore laser. Look at where the red dot is on the target (50 yds or a 100). Measure the offset and record that. If you need to remount your back-up scope on that rifle, you can do it a hunting camp w/o shooting sighters. Some camps don't let you shoot check rounds. It'll get you very close for a back-up scope if something happens to your primary :)
 
I've yet to use one of these gizmos to get a scope on paper. Several years ago a kind range master showed me how to use the bore of my bolt gun to approximate the POI of my newly mounted scope, and I've used that method successfully with every scope since.
 
I usually use the method jhansman uses, BUT with an action like the BAR, that would not be possible. If you use the laser to sight in @ 25yds, you should at least be on paper @ 100yds and then you will have to go from there. You could also use cheaper ammo to get it close and then load up the better stuff to get it dialed in. That's what I did with my Mosin last summer. I went to the range all summer and plinked around on the surplus and then the last weekend before deer season I used up 5 rounds of the good Winchester stuff to get zeroed in for the season.
 
Boresight with the laser at home; yup.

Then check at 25 yards. I've never had a problem getting zeroed at that distance, rarely needing more than three or four shots to get the point of impact where I wanted it to be. Just remember that it takes more clicks at 25 for a given amount of movement than at 100.

For a bolt-action with the usual low mounted scope, zero at 25 is about three inches high at 100. That's good, since I generally zero for 200 and that's generally two inches high at 100.

For a higher scope mounting setup (AR, e.g.), the POI should be an inch or two low at 25 yards.
 
If you have access to a vise, just go to the range, fire one shot a 25 yards. Double check that your crosshairs are still on the bull (adjust the vise back if not). Then, adjust the crosshairs until the bullet hole is dead center. As stated above, this should give you a 200 +/- yard zero. After that one round, double check at 100, you should be between 1 and 3" high, depending on scope mounting height; adjust as desired.
 
I was at the range on Monday and there were some guys trying to sight in their new .223. The rifle had been boresighted at the gunstore where they bought the rifle and scope and they just COULD not understand why the rifle wasn't bullseyeing every target.

I suggested to them that they bring their target in to 25 yards or so, and they did that. Being that they were getting more and more upset by the minute and blaming the gun store clerk for doing it wrong, I didn't want to insult them by talking trying to offer any more help. (Maybe I should've) They eventually left to regroup and try again later.
 
northark147 said:
I use the remove bolt, look down barrel method even with Saigas and ARs. Its tricky not nudging them off while reassembling them, but it gets the first shot on paper.

Not to be snarky, but if you paid attention to what gun the OP is trying to sight in, you would understand that he can't go that route, because the FNAR has a closed back receiver.
 
Like Art stated, with a 308 if sighted in at 25 yards, you can shoot dead on with your scope at game up to 250 yards and be assured of hitting a vital spot on deer. After I shoot at 25, I move to the 100 and make sure I am ok with left or right hits on the target and move the sights accordingly...
 
First, what scope are you using? This is a key part to how easy or hard it is to zero a rifle. Typically, cheap scopes don't track true or at the exact distances labeled. It can make it a very difficult job to accomplish without spending a good deal of money. That's not to say all cheap scopes can't be zeroed easily or that all expensive scopes track well, just a generalization. If you look at the cost of ammo, spending $300-$400 on a scope quickly becomes justifiable if you spend a few hundred rounds with a wandering zero.

Assuming the scope works as advertised, I would definitely laser bore sight first. Bolt rifles, as many have said, are simple enough to just pull the bolt and look down the bore. Here though, it's a bit more difficult and using a bore sighter is necessary. Another option is to buy a sheet or two of poster board and tape them together. Aim at the middle, see where it hits, and go from there. If you have no holes on the board after the first shot, aim at the lower edge. At 25 yards, you shouldn't be off more than a poster board if you have the scope centered and everything mounted correctly. If you do miss the board, I can typically see dirt fly if I'm shooting low. With two poster boards taped side by side, I haven't seen a case where I missed left/right when aiming at the center. So if there is no dirt flying and it misses, I tend to then aim at the bottom edge of the board as I am guessing it's going high. I keep working down until I see impact on the board/dirt and go from there.

To get within an inch or two of your absolute zero, with an accurate scope, it shouldn't take more than 10 rounds or so. If you want to get exactly centered it can take quite a few more rounds, but a hunting accurate zero really shouldn't be taking 100 rounds. I would also try to find a friend to go with you. It makes spotting a bit easier and it also lets you switch shooters if things start going bad.
 
Thanks for the replies.

As the redoubtable Screaming Eagle said, I have an FNAR and CANNOT simply "look down the Bbl.

Second, as I said earlier, when I first tried zeroing a (not exactly expensive) reflex scope the thing was shooting incredibly high - at least compared to the sight. I finally turned to getting an experienced shooter to watch where the dust cloud originated when I aimed for the bottom of the berm a few yards behind the 25 yard target stand. It was almost the size of the posted target high. Knowing where the round was impacting enabled me to find an aim point on the target and still hit paper SOMEWHERE.

Third, I cannot do anything with the targets themselves. The range is essentially hot as long as the place is open.

benzy2, I have no idea what you are talking about "Typically, cheap scopes don't track true or at the exact distances labeled". I have an inexpensive scope recommended by an instructor at the Appleseed event I went to and it has no distance markings. Re: "To get within an inch or two of your absolute zero, with an accurate scope, it shouldn't take more than 10 rounds or so. " And so it did not - once I knew for certain where the rounds were actually doing.

All:
I know very well that using a laser (now on order) to boresight the scope/rifle combo will not yield a final zero. I do not want it to do so. I just want to get the scope dialed in as close to zero as practical before spending half a buck (OK, $0.40) at every trigger pull. I wish there were less expensive ammo available but if there is neither I nor anyone I have contacted as found it. Even ten rds is a lot. I can buy a nice little bit of supper for $4.00.

But thanks for the advice. One final note, they have vises at the range I prefer - but they are incompatible with a rifle fed by large removable magazines. The rests look like they were designed for bolt-action rifles. I didn't buy a large caliber, magazine fed, military-style rifle for looks. Talking about TEOTWAWKI is verbotten here so I won't. But I wanted a multi-purpose tool capable of being employed in multiple different scenarios. Nuff said!

Oh, and one other use for the boresight laser: I can have my wife watch the spot on the wall as I work on acquiring a stable point of aim in prone, sitting and standing position. I believe my duty (to kith and kin) requires me to be a true rifleman and so I intend to become one. Right now my aim point is all over the map. I am never going to be either accurate or consistent until that is corrected.
 
.40 per round for 308 is not a bad price. The lowest quantity of bulk Radway Green from Classic Arms comes out to a few cents per round more than that.

And heaven forbid you feed it silver bear. But on that note, you probably spent $1100 or more on the gun; might as well scrounge some money to buy decent ammo to feed the baby.

And if you hope to become proficient with the gun in all positions, the only way to really do that is clicking up that round count. You can use things to help aid training while away from the range, but nothing will replace range time. It is mandatory to dial in your gun and skill.
 
Boresight with the laser at home; yup.

Then check at 25 yards. I've never had a problem getting zeroed at that distance, rarely needing more than three or four shots to get the point of impact where I wanted it to be. Just remember that it takes more clicks at 25 for a given amount of movement than at 100.

This has been my experience. IMO the laser boresights that fit in the chambers don't fit as tight as fired rounds. Beyond 25 yards I have never been on the paper using this method.
 
Like Art stated, with a 308 if sighted in at 25 yards, you can shoot dead on with your scope at game up to 250 yards and be assured of hitting a vital spot on deer

That is not a guarantee, and Art did not say that.

A 25 yard zero is just that, a 25 yard zero. That range is too close to say for sure where a bullet will impact at longer range. Until you shoot at paper at 250 yards you do not know where it will actually be hitting. Different loads, bullet weights and bullet shapes, even barrel length, could make a big difference. If you have a chronograph to determine the bullets actual speed and if you know the bullets ballistic coeficent, there are programs that will allow you to guestimate much closer.

That does not take windage into consideration. Often minor errors in scope adjustment just do not show up until you start shooting at long range. While your groups may appear to be perfectly centered at 25, you could be several inches left or right at 250.

As I've stated earlier I've found all the bore sighting tools to be horribly inacurate. Even without the ability to remove the bolt I've always been able to get just as close, or closer on the 1st shot without one.
 
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