Posted Places

[sumpnz]

So here's the situation - You are about to enter some establishment (e.g. store, mall, museaum, restaurant, etc) and there are no laws that cause a blanket prohibition on CCW in that place (i.e. not a school, federal building, etc). However the place is posted "No Weapons". Assume the signage complies with all relavent laws such that it is enforceable (e.g. TX 30-06 signs)

You have your favorite carry pistol in it's prefered place, and you have all relavent permits. Do you a) enter anyway and practice "concealed means concealed", b) go back to your car and disarm before entering, or c) turn around and leave and boycott the place from then on, including a letter to managment explaining your boycott?

Consider also that the absolute worst that could happen is that you'd be told to leave if got made. Even if the cops were called you could only be arrested for criminal trespass if, in the presence of the cops, you were told to leave and still refused.

 

[Biker]

Concealed is concealed.
Biker

 

[Twycross]

The following reply is strictly hypothetical, as I don't actually have a CCW permit (not old enough).

It's their property, they are in compliance with the law, so they have the right to regulate what I can bring in. I am willing to submit to that. It's not like I have a gang following me around waiting for me to disarm.

 

[psyopspec]

I didn't vote. In my locale, signs do not carry the rule of law, so I go anyway. If I lived in a place where signs did carry the rule of law, I would disarm and go in if it was a place where I had some mandatory business. If I didn't need to enter the establishment and could find an alternative, I'd boycott.

 

[Zundfolge]

Signs mean squat here in Colorado (unlike Texas and other places).

If they had any legal weight I'd just boycott Victim Disarmament Zones ... I probably should anyway but if I want to go there I just go.

Concealed means concealed ... if I end up needing my gun while there than I'll gladly leave the premises after I'm asked to

 

[Werewolf]

Concealed is concealed....

Right up to the point I want to make an issue of the stupid sign.

What's that mean?

I go in anyway (In OK the signs are basically pointless - if you get made the proprietor can ask you to leave. If you don't it's tresspass). Conduct my business and then make a point on the way out to whom ever is in charge about what a stupid sign they've got posted. That it will not keep criminals or others with evil intent out and only accomplishes the disarming of law abiding citizens who might other wise be able to help in a situation involving those criminal types who might enter.

The usual response is a blank stare or that's just our company policy. On one occasion the manager asked if I was armed at the time. I just gave him an evil grin and told him if I was I'd be breaking the law by telling him so I could legally neither confirm nor deny my current carry status. This is the look I got from him - (I enjoyed that confrontation immensely.)

Giving them the speech usually accomplishes nothing (other than being a rather enjoyable time for me). There was one occassion at a posted doctor's office where I used my CCW license as ID (I wasn't armed as I really needed to see the doctor). While checking in I gave the speech to the dumbass nurse who, after looking my permit over 4 or 5 times, finally figured out what it was and asked if I was armed. She looked positively frightened before I answered and told her, no. I went on to explain that their silly sign wasn't gonna keep out any bad guys. You could see the light bulb turn on in her eyes a few seconds later. That incident might actually have given her a bit to think about and I believe she actually did think about it. But that's the exception when dealing with posted places - it certainly isn't the rule.

 

[smince]

I was eating breakfast in a "chain restaurant" one morning when halfway through my meal I noticed "the sign" over the counter. Not on the door, where it may have did some good, but inside. I finished my meal, got the company website, and left.

I emailed and told them what I thought, was a legal CCW holder, and I knew plenty of places I could eat that didn't think that way. I never heard from them. A few month's ago, my friend I was with wanted to eat there, so I went with him (concealed is concealed). The sign was not there anymore.

 

[MechAg94]

Only very specific signs of a certain size mean anything in Texas. The only place I have ever seen one posted is at gun shows. I can't remember what was posted at the courthouse.

Oh well, Colorado is nice, at least the parts that used to be part of Texas.

 

[TallPine]

Sign ... what sign...? I dinna see no sign.

 

[Bruce333]

conceaed means concealed. I guess I didn't see the sign when I entered. Gas station I used to go to had a sign on one side, no sign on the other, so I always went in the side with no sign, and on the side with the sign it was hidden off to the end of the window (about 6 feet away, with several other signs) not on the door.

 

[Zach S]

In NC, that little sign does make it illegal to carry.

For a business, I leave and boycott. The only one I havent boycotted is Arby's, and only because its the only decent fast food place around here (IMO). My gf prefers McD's and BK though, so I dont go to arby's often.

For places pretty much posted by state law (banks, LEAs, bars, etc), I dont go unless I can't get out of it, and I go in unarmed.

 

[lucky_fool]

Oddly enough, I went to a mall today that I thought was probably posted, or at least used to be. I (conveniently) didn't see any sign when I went in, but on the way out I made sure to thoroughly check the doors as well as the list of rules posted way above eye level near the entrance. Nowhere did it say that firearms weren't allowed. Imagine my relief to find that I hadn't been breaking the rules after all.

 

[Ryder]

I've not seen a "no guns allowed" sign around here that I can recall. It could be because I habitually ignore advertising?
We do have some places which are prohibited by law. They may use signs? Hard to say since I don't go there.

I do know how I'd react to such a thing however. The commie freaks don't get one cent of my money.

Besides, protecting the patrons of such a place is anti-darwinian and I like science.

 

[Valkman]

If it's something like a concert or the SHOT show or a gun/knife show, I disarm and enter.

If it's a business with a "No Guns" sign, I walk right by it armed because it's not legal here.

If it's a business with a legal posted sign (like American Shooter Supply) I do not do business with them.

 

[taliv]

i went into a mall today in middle TN that had no signs on the doors. I walked past the empty store that used to hold the video arcade and saw a sign on the wall that was some goofy code of conduct. in the middle of this list of rules was "no weapons of any kind".

anyone in TN know if that is legally enforceable?

 

[Herself]

If they wanted me disarmed, they'd have a metal detector. A total defanging would take a considerable amount of time and trouble and would result in a preposterous pile of sharp, pointy things, possibly-dangerous tools and shiny projectile weaponry. That's assuming I was minded to go along with it. Not very likely!

That's why I hate visting the City-County Building or the Federal Building. They even dislike my belt. ...Though it has never dawned on 'em that it is a weapon, too, and at the ready when they've made me remove to to walk though the detect-o-gate.

--H

 

[Majic]

Their property means their private property rights. No one has the right to trample on someone else's rights because you think your right is better.
I didn't vote because I would turn around and leave, but certainly wouldn't boycott them because they were standing up to their rights. If I absolutely had to enter then I would follow their rules and disarm first.
How can you expect someone to repect your right if you have no respect for the rights of others? In some places that misdameanor may mean the loss or non-renewal of your CCW. Then what would you have to say?

 

[WvaBill]

Never, ever break the law.

 

[Herself]

"Break the law?" "Trample on their rights?"

What about my rights? Like my right to privacy: it's none of their business what's under my top or inside my purse! Like my right to defend myself: I'm been acosted by dangerous creeps in retail establishments and in at least one case, the store employees ran away while the looney was yammering at me! (It was scary but not a pressing threat and no place to draw; I yelled "GO AWAY!" and ran myself. Had the nasty time-slowing-down reaction, however. A couple of husky stockboys did eventually muster up nerve to hustle the guy out: I should trust such pantywaists with my precious self? Not!)

Sorry, scroom. A business or other publicly-accessed entity has no right to demand control of the inside of my possessions or of my person, no right at all. If they don't want to see guns on me, that's fine with me, but I did not surrender my privacy by walking across their threshold and I most certainly did not lay down my right to self-defense. They'll not even know I'm carrying a sidearm unless I need it and if it comes to that, there will be plenty of more pressing concerns. "Judged by twelve beats carried by six!"

Employers, it's a bit different. They're renting my time, after all, and they are providing me with a degree of protection while I am engaged in their business. I don't carry in my employer's facilities.

--Herself

 

[geekWithA.45]

The signs have no power of law around here, and the only one I've ever seen was at Penn's landing.

The twist is that Penn's landing is _public_ property_, the administration of which is subcontracted out to a private company, so the usual argument about private property does not apply. If push came to shove, that would not stand in a fair court of law, if one could be found in PHL.

Furthermore, unlike many here, I do not subscribe to the libertarian dogma that _all_ private property has absolute authority to regulate the lawful carriage of arms.

I'm not talking about people's residences, or the grey area of non public workplaces.

_Some_ private properties are, by their nature, places of public accommodation. Accordingly, the property owner's rights of determining _certain_ regulations is curtailed. In that light, absent the force of law or some extraordinary circumstances*, my position is that whatever is reasonable, peacable and lawful on the sidewalk outside the shoppe is also reasonable, peaceable and lawful within the shoppe.




*Extraordinary circumstances = some bona fide danger, such as a highly combustible atmosphere (grain elevator, flammable anaesthetics, etc) such that even a valid discharge would endanger everyone present.

 

[UWstudent]

what about bars?

 

[Herself]

You'll need a large-caliber handgun for bars, UW. They're annoyingly difficult to conceal. The big-bore sidearm,* that is, bars hide right well. At close range you can smell them but it is usually too late.

Or did you mean saloons? Can't help ya, kiddo, I took the Pledge.
Were you planning on drinking to excess? Tsk.

--H
________________________
* My current project, the Webley-Fosbury semi-auto revolver in .50 Beowolf. Effin' zombies! That'll fix 'em!

 

[sumpnz]

Thanks to all who responded so far. I'm still pretty new to the whole CCW thing, especially since it's basically only evenings and weekends that I'm able to carry.

I took my daughter to a children's museaum earlier today and carried my Sig P245 IWB. I got through the doors and then noticed a sign by the reception desk saying "No Weapons". Now, mind you, we already have an annual membership to this place, my daughter was excited to be there, and I didn't want to disarm just to go in there (I'm not worried about anything happening in there, but you just never know what might happen on the way back to the car). So, I figured that practicing option 1 in this poll was the way to go. I figured that what they don't know won't hurt them, and even if they did make me the worst they can do is tell me to leave.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

In Washington State Concealed means Concealed until you are told to leave ( I Believe). By law you don't have to honor any posted no weapon/firearms signs unless it's in a place that you aren't supposed to ie. School, Place serving alchohol, Courthouse, ect...

 

[Valkman]

what about bars?

What about 'em?

Alot of states do have restrictions on where you can go with your permit so you'd better know what the rules are in your state. We have no restrictions on that here.