Progression from AR to AK

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I have no idea where you came up with this. I've been on plenty of ranges. I've taken a defensive carbine class where we put 500 rounds downrange in two days. Not once has my AR15 jammed or broken in any way. In fact, I've never seen an AR15 jam or break on a range.

I'm sure it happens now and then, but the suggestion that you can't put a couple hundred rounds through an AR15 without it jamming or breaking is pure bunk.
Actually, I have seen this also and I havent been shooting all that long. When my wife and I are at the range I have seen people messing with their AR's at least 6x out of the 70x or so we have been to the long rifle range. Now I dont know how they took care of their firearm or anything. From the looks of it, probably not to well. But I'm just saying that I have seen it also. It happened so bad one time that they guy asked for his range fee back because he couldnt fix it.

It might just depend on where you shoot. If your shooting at a club, then the shooters there might take more care of their weapons and are more careful. In an inner city gun range, you may see people who shoot a lot less and therefore may see more problems? Just a hypothesis.
 
Though I find it ironic that folks might abandon the AR platform and then spend thousands trying to make other firearms feel like an AR, I once owned AR's but own them no longer. I have owned two Bushmasters and a Rock River. They were in various configurations and were of various accuracy, from good to great. They were all generally reliable.

Yet, I have discarded them. I own a number of semi-auto rifles, ranging from full-power to indermediate, but no longer do I own an AR.

I have tipping-bolt systems such as the FAL and SVT-40 to rotating bolts such as the AK and Garand (including a Mini 14), to neither flesh nor fowl in the VZ-58.

My most accurate rifles are bolt guns, though none of my semis are inaccurate. My worst performer, an Armory USA Rommy folder, still does what it needs. I have it mostly for investment as I have a VZ-58 and it is considerably more accurate than an AK. I have a PSL and an SVD to round out the package.

I found the AR to be a fine rifle, but just not for me. When I go hunting, it is with a Mossberg 810, so 2 MOA is just fine. Heck, the PSL and SVD are both very capable of going hunting, as is the VZ-58. The Mini-14 is a nice truck gun for going out on the farm while the AES-10b is just there for grins and chuckles.

In the end, there just wasn't a major hole that needed filling with an AR.

Though, I will most certainly agree that the AR has better iron sights than most of the other rifles I own, better trigger too. Yet, for my use of them, the sights and triggers are just fine. The PSL has a remarkably good trigger out of the box!

Ash
 
I have had AR and M16 rifles jam on me.
I must admit neither my Maadi or my Saiga rifles have yet to incure a malfunction.
Then again neither of the 7.62X39 AKM type rifles will group past two hundred meters and the Saiga stays at eight inches at that range.
The Maadi groups are measured in feet, not inches, past two hundred meters.

My Saiga .308 will shoot MOA to four hundred meters and then starts really opening up.
16" groups at 400 meters ain't bad for an AK type rifle,,,,,,,

Every AR rifle I own and two of the M1A rifles and one of my Garands will best this past four hundred meters.
 
Chris ( the OP) is right, we've deviated a bit from the original question.
Back to that,I have "regressed" for the most part from the AR to the AK.
I shot expert right out of boot camp with the AR, a year later my first gun ever was a little Colt "car-15" that i still have decades later. It's always been reliable, not a problem that i can recall. The AR has some good points, to be sure, i still like it alot.
But in the past couple years i've been bitten by the AK bug, and now feel that in 8 out of 10 possible judging points, the AK is the better platform.
And as for Onmilo's issues with "archaic" and "modern", he used the term "archaic" not in a strictly-defined sense,( as he later tried to say) but derisively,and it was that use that several of us took issue with.
 
both designs are only ten years apart, so 'archaic' applies to both. Just because you take the same gun and overhaul most of its design because it was broken doesnt make it something brand-new.

Also, the AK vs. AR threads are always a laugh to me. It is pretty awesome (and funny) that you can still compare an old 1940s-made AK-47 to a modern, present-day, came-out-of-the-box-yesterday AR. I wonder what would happen if we could get our hands on legit pieces of the AK-10X series. I wonder where the argument would end up then.

I think this is more of a side-step than it is progression or regression.
 
Understand I am not anti-AK either.
I don't like it any better when folks deride my countries service rifle like a turd at a cake contest.
I would like to be able to own one of the Kalashnikov 105 series short barrel carbines in 7.62X39 but until the rules change I can only dream,,,,,,,
 
I haven't, but I understand the motivation.

I think we've all head this one:
The story goes like this: in the 1960s, NASA astronauts discovered that their pens did not work in zero gravity. So like good engineers, they went to work and designed a wonder pen. It worked upside down. It worked in vacuum. It worked in zero gravity. It even worked underwater! And it only cost a million dollars!

The crafty Russians used a pencil.
If you watch the military channel they'll point out similar situations with tanks -- the Germans and we make some outstanding but overly-complex designs, versus the "fix it with two rocks" complexity of Soviet era stuff. It seems like the difference is one of looking to make the "best" or "best given a certain price point" equipment, versus making the cheapest possible design that works "good enough."

And we see the same thing in the rifle world. AR's are among the most accurate, ergonomic, and customizable rifle designs ever, but they've got a couple of down sides: they're complex, and therefore expensive; and they need to be kept clean because of the direct impingement system.

The AKs, on the other hand, are a bit lacking in the accuracy and ergonomics departments, but can be made for $22 by Afghani tribesmen over open fires, and they can be abused and never cleaned and still run pretty good.

I think there's something special to a bulletproof design like that. I can totally understand why someone would find that appealing, especially if circumstances (questionable build, bad mags, bad maintenance) meant they weren't seeing the reliability out of their AR that they wanted.

Personally, I find the AR good enough, and the hours upon hours I spent working with them in the Army means I'm quite comfortable with the platform. I don't see myself switching soon.
 
If your shooting at a club, then the shooters there might take more care of their weapons and are more careful
Maybe. But taking care of an AR15 in the average suburban situation is not exactly rocket science. Clean and lube now and then.
 
Of course, it all depends on intended use. In a home-defense situation, anything that gets somewhere in the neighborhood of 10MOA will do, so the accuracy differences between the AK and AR are negligible.

JWarren hunts and expects his rounds to be accurate enough to put down his prey ethically. 4 MOA is not acceptable for him. Yet, an AK that shoots 2 MOA is likely fine for hunting in Mississippi or Louisiana. Finding said AK that shoots 2 MOA might be tough, but there are decent AK's out there.

Shooting competition, owning an AK is an exercise in futility. Unless everyone shoots an AK, you are guaranteed not to win.

So, I did transition from AR to AK, as the OP said. I am just peachy with my choice. JWarren did the other way around and is absolutely satisfied with his choice.

And that is what makes the world work so well.

Ash
 
I'm an AR owner and have put a lot of rounds through it without one lockup/jam. I was hesitant to buy one due to the said reasons, but would never and have no reason in any way to say my AR is nothing less than superb. I have friends with AK's that I have seen jam. My reasons for buying an AR was 1. Too many cheap gangster in the hood movies with members that had AK's and 2. I'm an American man and wanted an American rifle. Some day down the road I may acquire and AK, but I went with American accuracy and design over the AK.
 
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Ash wrote:

JWarren hunts and expects his rounds to be accurate enough to put down his prey ethically. 4 MOA is not acceptable for him. Yet, an AK that shoots 2 MOA is likely fine for hunting in Mississippi or Louisiana. Finding said AK that shoots 2 MOA might be tough, but there are decent AK's out there.


Very true. But you also forgot to mention that I am obsessive-compulsive about such things.

But Ash is correct. (He ought to know-- we live and probably hunt within 20 miles of one another!) In all likelihood, 2MOA or even 4MOA (In some cases) WOULD be an effective hunting rifle in the distances that we shoot. I do not think that my father's favorite deer rifle-- a Remington 7400 is much more accurate than 2MOA, and yet he's taken more deer with it than I have with any of my rifles.

I should have qualified my statements with that fact. I know well that I obsess over accuracy. Just wait until I am done with the AR's-- I can't wait to get back into playing with Bolt-Actions.


-- John





EDIT:

I failed to mention on thing that I wanted to say....

From my tinkering, it is my belief that the single most effective thing that could be done for the accuracy of an AK-- or any rifle-- is having a good, crisp trigger. I don't know if that would affect the AK's reliability, but I believe that a clean breaking trigger could tremendously aid an AK's accuracy capabilities.


As Ash said, please don't take my assessment as a condemnation or advocacy of either platform. I seem both having thier own niches in the world and should be enjoyed in terms of their characteristics.

In my own perfect world, I'd have a room full of firearms with their own unique strengths, weaknesses, and historical significance that I could enjoy, shoot, and show to other enthusiasts.
 
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AR vs AK makes no cense if a guy with a AR15 want up against a guy with a AK47 the two would most likely take out each other. First the AR guy would shoot the AK guy from a distance then the AK guy would take out the AR guy then the AK guy would die 3 days later of gang green from when the 3500 fps 5.56 round searing through the skin. I have one of both got the AK first then the AR now I'm looking for a hi end AMD 65 (not CIA) but When the sun go's down on that final day I'll be going out with a AK47 in one hand and a AR15 in the other. But no I never progressed.
 
I actually have a design for an AK that uses a different gas piston. The trick is the bolt carrier, which needs to be shorter. I have thought of cutting off the carrier to that point where it enters the rear sight block/front trunion. Thread the resulting hole and screw a beefy plug (thread deeply). Then replace the recoil spring with a shorter one. Then, take an FAL style gas piston and install a steel bushing inside the rear sight block into which the piston will reciprocate. Have a return spring as part of the piston and a stop machined into the piston an inch or so from the block (which will stop the piston's rearward movement). This would reduce the weight reciprocating while maintaining the gas-piston operation. The only trick to making it work reliably would be in the strength of the recoil and return springs. The return spring would be fairly light. The recoil spring would have to be a bit firmer, but that would have to be tested out. It would not be hard to do, the hardest part of the whole design is machining the piston guide to fit into the opening of the front trunion AND developing a proper plug for the bolt carrier.

I have thought of doing something like this to see just what a difference it makes on firing - perhaps even a great way to further narrow the accuracy gap between the PSL and the SVD.

I have also toyed with the idea of making the AK direct impingement in the same way, removing the gas piston and threading a tube into the front gas block to the bolt carrier (which has been cut off and threaded as described above) but with something of a cup to help catch the gas. The AK seems like it would be far more forgiving to having powder residue spew within its guts, and seems like the space in the receiver is more than ample to allow gas pressure to drop without spraying the user, though some sort of method of sealing off the rear of the receiver might be better.

IN any case, both designs floating in my head would significantly reduce the amount of mass moving, which could help determine just how much of an effect it has on accuracy.

Ash
 
gtmerkley's DAD

Me and gt fought about this for years I love shooting with my son and doing things with him but this AR VS AK has lead to many an argument between us I knew my AR had some bad points and the AK had some good points and he knew the same. But he helped me get an AK (as birthday present) and I helped him get an AR. with a lone, I cant believe we argued over this so much I love my AR and my AK as dose gt so I recon if they take my son down there going to have to take me too and I will have my AR and my AK in my hands so god help anyone who try's to mess with the U S A. as long as me or gt can pull a trigger
 
well gentleman i enjoy both.my ak (3 now 2 romainians one wasr one sar and a chinese norinco sounds like a bad joke...there was these 2 romanians and a chinese in a boat..sorry i had too go there)and my dpms panther arms ar which is awesome to shoot but as every gun you need to clean them everytime in order to achieve maximium output.ive been to the range with many friends whose guns jammed after only a few rounds and i asked them all"did you clean your gun since the last time"and they either dont answer me which means no...or they will give that look like oh god here he goes again..hehe..but over all i love both weapons they are distinct in each of there own ways im also very happy due to there being a gun show here in jax fla today and tommorrow.
 
I own them both and they both jam.

That's been my experience as well. I've had a few AK's that never jammed on me and one AR that didn't, but I'm a little dubious of all the people that claim to have shot 100,000 rounds or whatever astronomical amount of ammo without a jam. I guess they've never encountered a bad mag, a bad cartridge or had a part break.
 
I don't care if it's a 17th Century matchlock musket or a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, I dig it.

I own multiple examples of AR's and AK's, they both have their strengths and weeknesses.

Glad you found a system that you really enjoy and trust! :)

Little thing I did down at Blackwater....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1QbZWg4lRkg
 
Ash, various tests have shown that action parts don't start moving until the bullet's long gone, at least in gas operated rifles. I believe this testing started with US Army testing of Garand's on that question. The issue with piston designs is simply that there are more big parts attached to the barrel, and those parts set up funky vibrations that affect accuracy. The AR can be made with a free floated barrel that has nothing but one small flexible gas tube connected to it, which is only slightly worse than being a bolt gun with an an entirely free-floated barrel.

I suspect the accuracy issues with most AK's come down to barrel quality, headspace adjustment, all that mass connected to the barrel, barrel quality, receiver/trunion rigidty, and barrel quality. I would love to see accuracy testing of a gun that was basically an AK but had a heavy milled or, ideally, forged receiver, and a match grade barrel from one of the leading US or german barrel makers. I suspect it would be quite accurate. But of course it would cost $3k, weigh 12lbs and not really be suitable for what the original AK is intended for...

a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range

Hey pal, just what you see!
 
Milled receiver AK's have the same accuracy as stamped. Of course, in stamped AK's, the lockup is in a milled trunion. And, as you say, the bullet is already long gone, then what possible difference can there be in receiver construction?

Lock up in the trunion of an AK isn't fundamentally any different than the lock up of the AR bolt in the barrel extension.

In any case, I still have these wee little designs in my brain that beg to get tried.

Ash
 
In fact, I've never seen an AR15 jam or break on a range.

Depends on what you mean by "jam". If you mean the technically correct "requires tools to resolve", I don't think I have either. If you mean the popular usage malfunction, it's really difficult for me to believe you've spent a lot of time on ranges. I've only owned two AR15s and been assigned one M16 and two M4s. Of those, I had fairly frequent malfunctions with the M16(A4) and one of the M4s.

I actually had what I believed was a jam with my (second) M4 at Camp Shelby in 2006. The weapon was clean and lubricated. I began experiencing frequent extraction problems on the range, until I was unable to extract a spent case. A RSO walked over with a spray bottle of CLP and squirted at least an ounce into the action. Then it worked. :uhoh:

I like the ergonomics, modularity, and accuracy of AR15s. I have put more rounds downrange through M4s than probably from all other firearms combined, so I am most comfortable using an M4-like AR15 carbine for social purposes. This does not mean that I would not find an AK platform with the ergonomic and sighting advantages of the AR much superior.

gt, I'm not certain which "3500 fps 5.56 round" you're referencing. The M193 Ball ammunition ran about 3200 fps from the M16's 20" barrel. Cutting that barrel length down to the M4's 14.5" significantly decreases velocity. The M855's slightly heavier round from the M16 loses about 100 fps from M193. More recent heavier rounds fly even more slowly.

John
 
My progression started with a Mini-14 at 17, which I killed four deer, two antelope and uncountable coyotes with that rifle over the next 10 years. At 17 I joined the ARNG and got to fire my first M-16 an A1. This rifle had been handled by god knows how many trainees before I touched it. I cleaned it and loved it like any basic trainee should. It jammed all the time, as well as most of the other trainees rifles. Then I entered the USAF (Security Police) and got to fire the original M-16 a nothing. It also jammed all of the time. When the USAF went to the M-16 A2 I was very excited, this rifle is my favorite of the M-16 family. The A2 still jammed but not as much as the other two versions (probably because they were all brand new). I actually felt well equipped with an A2. I won't even discuss the short barreled M-4 monstrosity currently being used. Through 25 years of military service I cleaned my M-16 religiously and it would still jam, usually after using the rifle for what it was designed for "combat" like crawling in the dirt and performing rushes and rolls etc. Funny how a rifle designed for "combat" won't fire well after you employ it in a "combat" enviroment. During my years of service I was lucky enough to attend a foreign weapons course at Aberdeen proving grounds. I fired every assault rifle, submachine gun, and machine gun not used by US forces. The majority were former communist block weapons. Every weapon based on the AK designed always functioned and fired. As combat weapons they all excel.
The M-16 series rifle is not a bad rifle, but it is not the best design for combat IMHO. If I want a rifle that I will only take from my vehicle and shoot from the bench then I will buy a high end AR-15, because that is all it is good for. As far as accuracy is concerned all of the AK or SKS type rifles I own will shoot 2 MOA or less if I do my part, with my Norinco SKS shooting 1 MOA with just about any ammo you put in it. Plus if a sand storm comes through or I accidently drop my AK or SKS in the mud, I will be able to shoot a round every time I pull the trigger without having to pull the charging handle back and slamming the forward assist. So, if anyone knows of another rifle outside the M-16 series that uses the gas impingement system, please post it here.
 
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