Push or Controlled round feed?

[DannyLandrum]

Though I love my FN-made, "controlled round push feed" actions of the newer Winchester 70s (more of a controlled feed than not).....

This is still right on:

"Push feed, especially a Remington style push feed with its three rings of steel for strength. Controlled feed will never be as strong. I am also not convinced that control feed is really necessary for even dangerous games. A properly designed push feed system will not drop a round on the ground without user error. Take a Remington bolt gun and turn it upside down, it will feed just fine. You also have the option of manually dropping a round direct to chamber with a push feed."

Love my push-feeds, especially my Husqvarna 1900 action and Browning A-Bolt II - smooth as butter. But I also loved my CZs I had (and do have).

 

[eastbank]

nothing wrong with either, both can have problems and can foul up if not worked right. but I have not heard of any one getting killed in Africa or Alaska because of a failed crf or pf rifle, if I,m wrong please correct me and supply information. two pf and two crf rifles amoung many I own and use.

 

[Varminterror]

Are push feed bolt's making an inroad into General Hunting Afield?

Making an inroad? That ship sailed over 50 years ago.

Push feeds have proven themselves for DG hunting, but most guys do still choose a CRF action - if for no other reason than tradition or keeping up with rumors. Any gamble is a big gamble if it might cost you your life, so most first timers do take a CRF.

More often than not, I do my hunting with a revolver. When I use a rifle, it’s most often an AR-15, technically a push feed. When I hunt a bolt action, I often take a CRF Ruger M77 MkII or Hawkeye, but only out of habit/personal tradition, and I wouldn’t recommend the Ruger or Win over the Rem 700. As big of fan as I am of Mausers, I also don’t recommend them for new shooters, with the exception of the modern customs, for the weight and expense of blueprinting to get them up to the standards of modern factory actions.

Overall, six of one, half a dozen of the other - with the exception of weight.

 

[Robert]

I carry a Winchester M70 with control round feed. I know for dangerous game a control round feed is recommended, but for normal hunting its really 6 one way half a dozen the other.

 

[Glockula]

In all of my years hunting I have never lost an animal due to not having controlled round feed in the field. That is NOT saying I will never need it, just I have not needed it in 24 years. Even in my infantry experience I found a handful of times at best that I had to charge or manipulate a weapon so far off axis that it's is an issue.

But when you need to do it all that really doesn't matter. So controlled round feed isn't a necessity IMHO, but it is good to have one or more crf rifles in the stable. And if your a one rifle kind of person it' better to have crf.

 

[MCMXI]

Like many here I have both CRF and PF rifles but I generally hunt with CRF rifles because I like a number of aspects of the rifles rather than because I consider CRF to be superior. The main advantage of CRF actions is extraction, as @jmr40 alluded to, and not just fired cases but a round that experiences a misfire or FTF. If you've ever tried to extract and eject a big, heavy loaded round of the type typically used on big, dangerous game using a PF with a plunger ejector and small extractor you might be underwhelmed. Try that same thing with a CRF with a fixed or spring loaded ejector at the back of the action you might be pleasantly surprised. With today's QC and generally higher quality both of ammunition and firearms, the chances of a misfire as a Cape Buffalo is bearing down on you is perhaps statistically small, but why play that game of chance if you don't have to.

Another advantage of CRF rifles is that the ejector is typically at the rear of the action and away from the bolt face. This potentially reduces the amount of shrapnel heading back towards the shooter in the event of a catastrophic case failure. An advantage of PF rifles is that they generally have smoother feeding cycles since the case rim doesn't have to snap under the extractor. CRF actions that reduce the angle of attack of the cartridge to the feedramp can be very smooth but it's an easier proposition for most PF rifles.

For the record, given the type of hunting that I do I start out with the question of "does the rifle have a locking bolt?" followed by "does the rifle have a good extractor?" followed by "do I like the look, fit, feel and function of the rifle?". If a PF meets those criteria then it's good to go without any concerns at all. For example, if Accuracy International made a hunting rifle based on their action I'd be all over it.

 

[Nature Boy]

I’m a fan of CRF. Why?

Because

 

[Glockula]

A locking bolt is my #1 feature in a hunting rifle as well. The guns no good if the bolt is pushed up and out of battery...............Remy 700

 

[TIMC]

I say push feed, control feed is only needed in Australia, you’re upside down there!

 

[mcb]

A locking bolt is my #1 feature in a hunting rifle as well. The guns no good if the bolt is pushed up and out of battery...............Remy 700

And yet the US military, where the stakes are arguably higher, uses non-locking bolt guns almost exclusively...

 

[MCMXI]

And yet the US military, where the stakes are arguably higher, uses non-locking bolt guns almost exclusively...

I have a couple of friends in Hawaii who have been involved with the USMC sniper program at MCBH for quite a few years and they regularly have bolts fall out of the M24 rifles during training. Why the rifles in service don't have a bolt lock feature is beyond me and perhaps it's because the US is inexplicably tied to the M24 and its clones. I had a friend lose the bolt from his Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag while hunting in WA. He was able to back track and find the bolt but that's not something I'm interested in having happen to me, particularly since there's usually snow on the ground when I'm hunting. I simply won't buy any bolt action rifle that doesn't have a bolt lock feature and am planning on selling my last Remington, a Ti 700, in part for that very reason.

 

[mcb]

I have a couple of friends in Hawaii who have been involved with the USMC sniper program at MCBH for quite a few years and they regularly have bolts fall out of the M24 rifles during training. Why the rifles in service don't have a bolt lock feature is beyond me and perhaps it's because the US is inexplicably tied to the M24 and its clones. I had a friend lose the bolt from his Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag while hunting in WA. He was able to back track and find the bolt but that's not something I'm interested in having happen to me, particularly since there's usually snow on the ground when I'm hunting. I simply won't buy any bolt action rifle that doesn't have a bolt lock feature and am planning on selling my last Remington, a Ti 700, in part for that very reason.

If the bolt falls out on the ground that is a completely different issue independent of the bolt coming unlock on a chambered round.

 

[MCMXI]

If the bolt falls out on the ground that is a completely different issue independent of the bolt coming unlock on a chambered round.

They're kind of related in that if the bolt handle is unable to move then the bolt is unable to open and fall out. Either way, I don't want to dump a live round onto the ground and be walking around with the action open while hunting, and I sure don't want to lose the bolt. This is just my personal choice so if it's not an important issue to others then it's not ... no big deal.

 

[someguy2800]

I have a couple of friends in Hawaii who have been involved with the USMC sniper program at MCBH for quite a few years and they regularly have bolts fall out of the M24 rifles during training. Why the rifles in service don't have a bolt lock feature is beyond me and perhaps it's because the US is inexplicably tied to the M24 and its clones. I had a friend lose the bolt from his Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag while hunting in WA. He was able to back track and find the bolt but that's not something I'm interested in having happen to me, particularly since there's usually snow on the ground when I'm hunting. I simply won't buy any bolt action rifle that doesn't have a bolt lock feature and am planning on selling my last Remington, a Ti 700, in part for that very reason.

Lol, that made me chuckle, I can just imagine making it to the top of the ridge or across the cedar swamp and being eye to eye with mister wall hanger only to find the bolt is laying in a puddle a mile back!

 

[cdb1]

I’m a fan of CRF. Why?

Because

Exactly.

 

[eastbank]

right, if the bolt falls out the problem is not a bolt lock. but the bolt retainer and when you work the bolt it will come out no matter if you have a bolt lock or not. Remington had bolt locks until in the 80,s and also made three posion safey,s rifles in the late 50,s, the 725.

 

[Glockula]

And yet the US military, where the stakes are arguably higher, uses non-locking bolt guns almost exclusively...

I knew there would be some flames over my statement. Yes the military uses 700s. The military uses a pf / non locking bolt system. Sounds brilliant to me.

 

[mcb]

I knew there would be some flames over my statement. Yes the military uses 700s. The military uses a pf / non locking bolt system. Sounds brilliant to me.

I am not sure it is brilliant but it does point the fact that serious bolt gun users in some very serious settings get by just fine with bolt guns that have push feed and no bolt lock. I would be willing to bet the Armies next sniper rifle (ASR, assuming the program actually finishes with a selection made) will be push feed and very likely will not have a bolt lock.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Has Jack O'Conner's influence faded with time?
Remember the "Rifleman's Rifle" ?
I'm awaiting the opinions of folks guiding other folks.

Has the Mauser Claw declined due to off the rack pricing?
Or perhaps the Mauser Claw is suffering from low cost options off the Rack?

If memory serves me: the first USMC M40's where Bull Barreled Winchester Controlled Round Feed Rifle's off the retailers rack?

Well that’s an oxi because the m40 has always been a rem 700 receiver. Perhaps you are talking about hathcock and his strong desire to use the win mod 70 as far as Marines are concerned.
The corps in the 60s on the original m40x were just varmint/target rem 700s.

 

[cowboy77845]

I have both but I prefer a CRF.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

I have a couple of friends in Hawaii who have been involved with the USMC sniper program at MCBH for quite a few years and they regularly have bolts fall out of the M24 rifles during training. Why the rifles in service don't have a bolt lock feature is beyond me and perhaps it's because the US is inexplicably tied to the M24 and its clones. I had a friend lose the bolt from his Remington 700 7mm Rem Mag while hunting in WA. He was able to back track and find the bolt but that's not something I'm interested in having happen to me, particularly since there's usually snow on the ground when I'm hunting. I simply won't buy any bolt action rifle that doesn't have a bolt lock feature and am planning on selling my last Remington, a Ti 700, in part for that very reason.

If your friends are at k bay, why are they using m24s? Even if they were they were army peeps TAD to the school, pretty sure the Army is completely switched to the m2010 which in all fairness is pretty much a modernized m24.

 

[MCMXI]

If your friends are at k bay, why are they using m24s? Even if they were they were army peeps TAD to the school, pretty sure the Army is completely switched to the m2010 which in all fairness is pretty much a modernized m24.

Both are/were army, one was in the USMC on the rifle/pistol teams but transferred to the army, and I don't know why they're using M24s for the sniper school, but that was what they were using.

I am not sure it is brilliant but it does point the fact that serious bolt gun users in some very serious settings get by just fine with bolt guns that have push feed and no bolt lock. I would be willing to bet the Armies next sniper rifle (ASR, assuming the program actually finishes with a selection made) will be push feed and very likely will not have a bolt lock.

I don't know how you know that they "get by just fine" but there are a bunch of equally serious British, Irish, Australian and New Zealand forces to name a few who use the push feed Accuracy International rifles that do have a three-position safety with a bolt lock. I guess that feature is important to them along with a well-designed and robust extractor.

right, if the bolt falls out the problem is not a bolt lock. but the bolt retainer and when you work the bolt it will come out no matter if you have a bolt lock or not. Remington had bolt locks until in the 80,s and also made three posion safey,s rifles in the late 50,s, the 725.

It's not just the ability of the bolt to fall out, it's the ability of the bolt to open and dump a round in the dirt leaving the action open and exposed to the elements without the person carrying it knowing about it. The standard 700 trigger mounted bolt stop is kind of crappy too and many actions based on the 700 have moved to a spring loaded stop in the receiver body for that very reason. Why did Remington move away from the 3-position safety?

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive had both, dont care one way or the other. Most of mine are push feed, My Arisakas are CRF, but the bolt will jump a 06 size case rim (both are using 284 based cartridges). The one thats still 7.7x58 will not jump the rim unless you flex the extractor.
Ive had the ruger hawkeye and 77s, springfield 1903...few others. Generally i dislike the way the safeties actuate on crfs, but this is probably because i started with tang, or 700 style safeties.

The standard 700 trigger mounted bolt stop is kind of crappy too and many actions based on the 700 have moved to a spring loaded stop in the receiver body for that very reason. Why did Remington move away from the 3-position safety?

yeah, the stupid bolt release is pretty much the ONE feature i realy dislike about remingtons for general use. I bent the sheet metal actuator on my 6x47 changing the trigger and it would stick from time to time both up and down. never got around to fixing it till i yanked the bolt out into my face in front of a group of my shooting buddies.
Ive never seen a 3 position on a 700, I have seen the locking 2 position. I thought they got rid of that so that you could unload the rifle with the saftey still on, rumor being that it was to prevent the safety drop discharge.

 

[MCMXI]

Ive never seen a 3 position on a 700, I have seen the locking 2 position. I thought they got rid of that so that you could unload the rifle with the saftey still on, rumor being that it was to prevent the safety drop discharge.

Oops ... yes, locking 2-position safety. That said, I remember seeing 3-position safeties for Remington bolts on Midway 8 to 10 years ago. It was basically a retrofit to the cocking piece housing that supposedly was a PITA to fit but the result was a Winchester style wing safety on a Remington rifle. I was going to go that route but then sold my two custom 700 "tactical" rifles and bought AI rifles to replace them.

 

[M118LR]

Well that’s an oxi because the m40 has always been a rem 700 receiver. Perhaps you are talking about hathcock and his strong desire to use the win mod 70 as far as Marines are concerned.
The corps in the 60s on the original m40x were just varmint/target rem 700s.

The Original M40's were off the rack heavy bull barreled Winchester Model 70's and then similarly configured Remington 700's. Folks at the top decided that it would be better if users couldn't drop all thier rounds on the ground with just a push of a button, so they needed to be ADL's or have the floor-plate welded shut. Perhaps a little time with a Jane's Manual vice Wiki is in order. But by the time the armors started building the A1 with Mac's stocks, the Remington (lower production cost to the Government) was the only platform retrofitted.