Push or Controlled round feed?

[LoonWulf]

Oops ... yes, locking 2-position safety. That said, I remember seeing 3-position safeties for Remington bolts on Midway 8 to 10 years ago. It was basically a retrofit to the cocking piece housing that supposedly was a PITA to fit but the result was a Winchester style wing safety on a Remington rifle. I was going to go that route but then sold my two custom 700 "tactical" rifles and bought AI rifles to replace them.

Yeah id forgotten about those, ive never seen one in person. Again its a safety style i dont like, but they are worth mentioning.

 

[Bbear]

I own both.
PF or CRF preference? None.

Accuracy trumps either of the choices.

 

[SwampWolf]

Oops ... yes, locking 2-position safety. That said, I remember seeing 3-position safeties for Remington bolts on Midway 8 to 10 years ago.

I believe the Remington Model 725 (the Remington bolt-action rifle that bridged the "gap" between the models 721/722 and the 700 briefly in the late fifties/early sixties) came with a three-position safety.
In 1982, Remington went from the original "locking" 2-position safety to a 2-position version which permitted the bolt to turn with the safety "on"; said change being made supposedly for "safety" reasons ).

 

[Klint Beastwood]

The Original M40's were off the rack heavy bull barreled Winchester Model 70's and then similarly configured Remington 700's. Folks at the top decided that it would be better if users couldn't drop all thier rounds on the ground with just a push of a button, so they needed to be ADL's or have the floor-plate welded shut. Perhaps a little time with a Jane's Manual vice Wiki is in order. But by the time the armors started building the A1 with Mac's stocks, the Remington (lower production cost to the Government) was the only platform retrofitted.

I’m telling you man, the m40x (experimental) which as military as concerned is about as early as they get, where 700 actions...specificly commercial 700 actions. Like in the mid 60s
Ill owe beer if I’m wrong!

 

[M118LR]

It's almost St Pats, so I'll be magnanimous. The Original off the shelf Hunting Rifles used by USMC/USN Snipers in-theater where both Winchester Model 70's & Remington Model 700's. I'll leave it up to you as to whether or not that qualifies as part of the XM40 project.

I believe that a photograph of an in-theater USMC Sniper using a Winchester Model 70 can be found in:
"Jane's Guns Recognition Guide - 3rd Edition"


Sniper/marksman rifles[edit]

• 
  
  
  • M1C/D Garand – limited numbers were used by the South Vietnamese.
  • M1903A4 Springfield – used by the USMC throughout the war, replaced by the M40.
  • M21 Sniper Weapon System – designated Marksman Rifle (DMR) used by the US Army.
  • M40 – bolt-action sniper rifle meant to replace the M1903 Springfield rifle; used by the USMC.
  • Winchester Model 70 – used by the USMC.

Excerpt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Vietnam_War

Military use[edit]
The United States Marine Corps purchased 373 Model 70 rifles in May, 1942. Although the Marine Corps officially used only the M1 Garand and the M1903 Springfield as sniper rifles during the Second World War, "many Winchester Model 70s showed up at training camps and in actual field use during the Pacific campaign."[11] These rifles had 24-inch sporter barrels chambered for .30-06 Springfield. They were serial numbered in the 41000 to 50000 range and were fitted with leaf sights and checkered stocks with steel butt plates, one-inch sling swivels, and leather slings. It has been reported that some of these rifles were equipped with 8X Unertl telescopic sights for limited unofficial use as sniper weapons on Guadalcanal and during the Korean War. Many of the surviving rifles, after reconditioning with heavier Douglas barrels and new stocks between 1956 and 1963 at the Marine Corps match rebuild shop in Albany, Georgia, were fitted with 8× Unertl sights from M1903A1 sniper rifles. The reconditioned rifles were used in competitive shooting matches; and the United States Army purchased approximately 200 new Model 70 National Match Rifles with medium heavy barrels for match use between 1954 and 1957. Many of the reconditioned Marine Corps match rifles were used by Marine Corps snipers during the early years of the Vietnam war with M72 match ammunition loaded with 173-grain boat-tailed bullets. A smaller number of the Army's Model 70 rifles also saw combat use by Army snipers; and some were equipped with silencers for covert operations in Southeast Asia. These Model 70 rifles never achieved the status of a standard military weapon; but were used until replaced by the Remington Model 700 series bolt-action rifles which became the basis for the M40 series sniper rifle.[12]

One of the reasons the U.S. Marine Corps replaced their Winchester Model 70s was that the post-1964 variants of the Model 70 did not meet U.S. Marines' standards.[citation needed] Despite the introduction of the Remington Model 700 rifle, the pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 was still used by the US Marine Corps' scout/sniper teams during the Vietnam War alongside the Remington Model 700 rifle. The original wood stocks were found to be warping in both rifles after a few years of service and both rifles were given fiberglass stocks to remedy the problem.[13] Existing Model 70s still in service have had their stocks replaced with a McMillan fiberglass stock, such as that found on the Custom Extreme Weather variant.[citation needed]

One of the best known U.S. Marine Corps snipers who used the Winchester Model 70 during the Vietnam War was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, who used a Winchester Model 70 sniper rifle chambered in .30-06. It was this rifle, equipped with a standard 8×43 Unertl scope, that Hathcock used to kill a North Vietnamese enemy sniper by shooting him in the eye, through the scope of his Mosin–Nagant rifle. Hathcock's rifle is on display at the Quantico, Virginia Marine Corps Sniper Museum.

So Officially/Technically You Sir are correct.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

Good haha, I was going to have to mail you beer lol

 

[M118LR]

Since the M40 didn't get designated until 1966, and Winchester changed production in 1964, TECHNICALLY all designated M40's are from the Remington 700 platform. Both rifles served the same purpose side by side until Winchester changed the (pre-64) CRF Model 70 into a Push Feed to cut production costs in order to be more competitive with the Remington 700. It can not be said that the Remington outperformed the Winchester during actual field operations leading up to the Designation of USMC Sniper Rifle, but it is pretty apparent that Remington's lesser cost to the Government per unit was a key factor in the final selection for Designation as the M40. The rest as they say is History. The USMC stuck with the Short Action (SA) & 7.62 x 51 mm, (M40) while the ARMY went with the Long or Standard Action and adoption of the M24. The M24 eventually got removable box mags, but that kind of thinking didn't hit the USMC until the M40A5.

The ARMY has converted to the M2010, but it is still uncertain what if any platform will take over for the USMC M40?
Wonder where those 573 Military Winchester Model 70's are?
Wouldn't mind sprucing one of those up to take afield, Dangerous or Non-Dangerous Game Hunting.
I'd mail you a beer to get my hands on one of those again. LOL.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

We use the sass if not the m40 on the conventional side. It’s not a replacement, just an alternative.

 

[M118LR]

We use the sass if not the m40 on the conventional side. It’s not a replacement, just an alternative.

Isn't that like the Sniper Support Firearm? I mean way back when the spotter dragged 210 rounds for the M16 because it couldn't reach out and touch someone at 1K on an actual Battlefield, so now that a Sniper is expected to neutralize a target engaged at 1200 Meters at a minimum, what is the Minimum Sniper Support Range? Just because I dragging one of Mac's 50 BMG Bolts 20+ years ago when I hit the Fleet Reserve Mark?

Just an Old Squid that Uncle Sam Directed to spend a little time learning from a Gunny prior to not being able to list a 8541 secondary MOS on a Navy 214. But yesterday's Warriors are nothing more than Today's causalities on the modern Battlefield! Time and Tide await no man. JMO it may not be that Humble.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

The only current “sniper” rifles that are currently in use on the marine side are the m40a/billion, the m110 sass and the m107. I think the kids stopped using the m14 ebr proably because of how stupid of a design they are for the desert.
A lot of DMs use the sass, eod smuts with them, and snipers use them when it makes senses. Sometimes semi auto and the ability to reach out and touch someone is a good thing. It’s just really a modern sr-25 for the folks of old.
That’s without going into deviation of standards to meet operational requirements type bs that creates exceptions to get better weapons

 

[M118LR]

Perhaps we have reached a Sailors Lexicon that is better left on the flip side of those that have spent a day outside the wire?

Yet this is a conversation for those shouldering a bolt action in today's American Woodlot's and what are they toting into the woods to face the fanged and clawed beasts? Not just the hooves and predated victims. So what is it that Y'all can scratch the mark with, vice being a member of the dinner plate with that you have armed yourself with?

This is going far to deep outside the wire? So how about we walk back into the realm of the common Woodsman? About what's on Y'all's Shoulder Hunting Americas wood lot's?

 

[Llama Bob]

FWIW I think the current FN M70s, while not sadly made in the US, are some of the best rifles of the general type ever made. Good action, good safety, OK trigger although the old design is probably preferable, great barrels on average. FN is really pretty good at barrels, although I wish they would change the twist rate on a couple calibers.

But overall, if you're not talking nostalgia and just want a gun that shoots straight with a fast lock and always extracts and ejects and looks pretty darn good doing it, today's M70s run rings around both the old push feed and "pre 64" eras as well as commercial Mausers from BRNO, Zastava, FN, etc.

 

[joed]

I have both and do not give preference to one over the other. In 40 years of hunting with bolt actions I've found no advantage to one style over the other.

 

[eastbank]

side note, the US government issued a PF rifle with a plunger type ejector in ww-2-korea-vietnam when most other countries involved used crf with solid type ejectors. and the GI,s were glad to have it. and have fired more shots in deadly encounters than any hunters of dangerous game.

 

[mshootnit]

What's on your shoulder?
It's been awhile since I faced a competitor with a controlled round feed Bolt Action.
Are push feed bolt's making an inroad into General Hunting Afield?
Is there a marked difference between Controlled Round and Push Feed for dangerous vice non-dangerous game hunting?
What's your experience or opinion.
Thanks for Y'all's input.

I like push feed Vanguards and controlled round feed Rugers.

 

[mshootnit]

I've gotten over the controlled round feed. I don't hunt dangerous game hanging upside down. I don't need it. I also got tired of jamming rounds into the chamber because I forgot and single fed them at the range. At least three times I had to unscrew my radio antenna on my truck to use as a ramrod to push a round out of my Ruger 77's. Never once had to do that with a push feed rifle.

I've hunted feral pigs with push-feed rifles for decades. I am not sure you can cycle a bolt faster than I've cycled one in the middle of a pack of pigs. No failures yet.

So yea, as much as like the idea of controlled feed, I simply don't need it and these days, no longer want it.

Dude! Thanks for the truck tech tip!

 

[Newtosavage]

LOL, I figured everyone knew the "truck antenna ramrod" trick by now.

 

[dagger dog]

If you hunt cape buffalo while doing a headstand you may need a controlled round feed rifle for that quick follow up shot !

 

[mcb]

If you hunt cape buffalo while doing a headstand you may need a controlled round feed rifle for that quick follow up shot !

But a 700 will work just fine standing on your head...

 

[LoonWulf]

But a 700 will work just fine standing on your head...

I dont belive you....i think we need pictures....or better yet VIDEO!

Pretty much all CRFs will hope the rim of a round in the chamber if you flex the extractor.

Only time i had to use thr antenaa ramrod it was to push mud out of a barrel.

 

[MCMXI]

I am not sure it is brilliant but it does point the fact that serious bolt gun users in some very serious settings get by just fine with bolt guns that have push feed and no bolt lock. I would be willing to bet the Armies next sniper rifle (ASR, assuming the program actually finishes with a selection made) will be push feed and very likely will not have a bolt lock.

Not to beat a dead horse since the thread is CRF vs. PF, but Lee-Enfield rifles also have a feature that locks the bolt closed to prevent accidental opening. I'm not very familiar with the M1903 Springfield so I'll have to dig into my "Bolt Action Rifles" book by Haas and Zwoll to see if the bolt can be locked closed. I can't see why that wouldn't be a desirable feature for any bolt action rifle. Like I said, I won't own another bolt action that doesn't have a bolt lock. Fortunately there are more than a few good options out there, both hunting and tactical, with that feature.

 

[Llama Bob]

I am not sure it is brilliant but it does point the fact that serious bolt gun users in some very serious settings get by just fine with bolt guns that have push feed and no bolt lock. I would be willing to bet the Armies next sniper rifle (ASR, assuming the program actually finishes with a selection made) will be push feed and very likely will not have a bolt lock.

The Army procuring something is really a statement of minimum acceptability, not quality.

The M700 is the C ration of rifles. It probably won't get you killed, but if given a choice would anyone take a stock 700? And of course there's always going to be that one guy that loves them just like the beans with frankfurter chunks in tomato sauce

 

[mcb]

Army procurement is certainly hit or miss and results in a minimum acceptable system according to the specification they write. That said if the Army wanted their sniper rifle to have CRF or a bolt lock they would have written the requirement in as part of those minimally acceptable specification at the time the contract was opened for bid proposals. Clearly CRF and bolt lock has not been a desired feature or it would have been included in the system specification.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

The Army procuring something is really a statement of minimum acceptability, not quality.

The M700 is the C ration of rifles. It probably won't get you killed, but if given a choice would anyone take a stock 700? And of course there's always going to be that one guy that loves them just like the beans with frankfurter chunks in tomato sauce

While I’ll don’t disagree with the military’s ways of making business decisions, nor the analogy of a stock 700 being not the greatest, I really do like the action itself. With the right work it’s a really good rifle, which is proably why people don’t like it. It’s not the best thing “out of the box” but if you want the best..you have to pay for it.

 

[mshootnit]

The only thing I will say is that I do prefer the standard old bolt diameter to these new large diameter economy push feed bolts. The feel heavy and sluggish when cycling.