Questions about selling my gun face to face

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efeng9622

efeng9622

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Maryland, USA
I have some questions about selling my gun face to face ( in state).I have no any experience on this kind of business. I live in Virginia.

1) If someone wants to buy my gun , do we need to write a "selling gun" agreement for this deal ? For example, we will write "the seller gives to the buyer two weeks for returning the gun if it has a big problem"....on the agreement.
2) Can I ask the buyer to give to me his drive license’s copy that is the evidence of this deal? Just in case something happen in future.
3) Where can we do this deal? Gun store or shooting range? Other places are not safe.


Thanks!

Fang
 
"...to write a "selling gun" agreement..." If the buyer isn't somebody you know it's not a bad idea. Getting everything in writing avoids a "he said, I said" problem down the road. CYA is always a good thing.
"...Other places are not safe..." Your place or his. Not in a gun shop. That'd create problems for everybody. Especially the shop owner. A range would be better than a shop.
"...his drive license’s..." What would you do with it? What if he doesn't have one? ID i sa good idea, but that should be in your 'agreement'.
 
Assuming both seller and buyer live in the same state, and that state has no laws making such a sale illegal, there are still some things that should be done.

At the very least, the buyer should get a bill of sale to prove the gun is his, and should demand one. If the seller refuses to put his name or address on a bill of sale, the deal should be off, as the gun is probably "hot."

Any other terms of the sale should be written on the bill of sale or the bill of sale should reference and be attached to a list of any other terms, such as a return policy.

If the seller does not know the buyer, he should ask for and get the buyer's identification, and record it. If the gun later turns up in a crime it WILL be traced to the seller and if he cannot show where it went he will come under more heat than he needs, believe me. Some "internet lawyers" will say, correctly, that not being able to show disposition of a crime gun you once possessed is not enough for conviction. But it is sure enough for some long discussions with the police, and a lot of suspicion from friends and neighbors, not to mention having the papers describe you as a "shady gun merchant who sold the crime weapon."

When direct sales were legal in MD (they must now go through a dealer), I asked the buyer to fill out and sign a 4473. Of course, it had no legal basis whatsoever, but if he refused, I wouldn't sell him the gun.

Jim
 
In Virginia cash and carry is perfectly legal. You can request a bill of sale, ID, or return policy but no one is required to give it to you. The sale can be made anywhere. Basically you determine what feels comfortable to you. If something doesn't feel right then just walk away.
 
Hi! Jim,
Would you please tell me what 4473 is, Is it a kind of form for selling and buying
the gun?

Thank you very much!
 
In person to person, no 4473 is done....only by FFL dealer. I'd talk to the guy and get a feel for him.....if you are comfortable, I'd get a picture ID and record it, with serial number of gun and get him to sign it.
I wasn't always this paranoid.... only damn pistol I ever bought tax off...legal at the time...I traded to a state police officer...legal, no tax.....40 years ago, that gun and 1 ton of grass were picked up in " operation intercept"....off the coast of Cal..took about 15 minutes to come back to ME. Got on a first name basis with DEA before that one died!
That's my paranoid on gun paperwork!
Dan
:mad:
 
Check out the NRA-ILA website for legalities by State. www.nra-ila.org

http://www.nra-ila.org/GunLaws/Default.aspx

^ Specific link

It will state if Illegal for a private transaction. I know in Idaho and Montana you can trade gun for cash face to face without any paperwork, and in Nevada I think you have to make a little receipt or something - not sure. Check your laws.

But if the guy looks shady or you get a bad vibe, don't sell it. Also, if he starts asking questions about "fully automatic" this and that don't sell it.
 
Since no Federal Form 4473 is required with individual sales in VA, I would ask to see drivers license at a minimum and record it. You could take a digital picture of the buyer... a little joke. My philosophy is not to sell to anyone who could not otherwise legitimently complete, sign the 4473 and pass the instant background check. If I know the person, then my standards are a bit more relaxed, but I would never sell to anyone who is a felon. I would also have a quickie bill of sale that documents the serial number and the buyer and seller identified.

The other option is to ask for nothing and just take the $. If anything ever comes up and it usually doesn't, you just say you "sold it" in September 2005.
 
I guess I'm different.

After Chaim's experience with the Maryland Highway Patrol (wasn't that the group?) during the Maryland "sniper" shootings a few years ago, I got a little uncomfortable having my name on a list somewhere. The thought of a cop coming to my door and asking (requiring?) me to hand them in for testing just strikes me as, well, unsettling.

So I'd prefer not to have my name listed anywhere, thanks. 4473 -> you, and you've got my name and a copy of my driver's license, well, that's just as creepy. You likely wouldn't expect the same if I paid with a money order for your $19,000 used Mercedes, even.

If I'm buying "off-paper," than dammit, I'm buying off-paper. I'll show you my license and CCW if it makes you feel better, but I don't need you keeping any records. I'd probably buy from a dealer if I need to go through all that stuff anyway -- at least that way I get exactly what I want and a warranty...
 
Two way reciept

As long as it is legal to sell face to face in your state. I do what I call a two way receipt. I, My name received from his name one gun description & cerial # for $$$ amount. Both sign it with agreed upon ID's. DL, CHL etc.

2nd receipt goes to him w/ all info reversed. Both sign it. Each keeps the appropriate paper. I keep them indefinately. I don't sell many guns. When I buy them they are mine. :D
 
Hi, Efang622,

The Form 4473 is the federal "yellow paper" you have to fill out when buying a gun from a dealer. It has no legal basis whatsoever in a private transfer. I used it only because it has the information I wanted about the buyer. If it scared him off and he wanted to buy a gun with "no paperwork", that was fine by me, but I wanted to CMOA.

I hate to disillusion the paranoid, but it is just about impossible today to get a gun that has no record, at least if it was bought new from a dealer in this country after 1968. The "off paper" gun is now pretty much a myth; most guns can be traced, if someone wants to bother, at least to the last legal owner. Even if the gun was stolen, that owner will be subject to questions if the gun turns up in a crime. Many crime suspects claim that a gun traced to them was "stolen" from them, or they sold it to "some guy at a gun show", thinking the police will accept that without question. They won't.

If some guy wants to buy guns "off paper" so he can sell them on the street corner to the hoods, I can't stop him, but I sure don't want him selling ones that can be traced to me. I used to carry a badge and have seen the inside of police stations; I don't need to see them from the other perspective.

Derek, you have a CCW and you don't want "them" to know you have guns? What do you think they think you are carrying?

Jim
 
I do what is legal and ONLY what is legal.
In Texas you take the money and hand over the gun. You don't have to swap info, check driver's licenses, create bills of sale, take them to dinner or kiss them on the cheek. :D

I've been buying and selling guns for almost 50 years and
once one of the guns I had filled out the 4473 was used in a killing.
The Detectives of that city tracked me down 1,400 miles away and called me on the phone.

The call lasted maybe 10 minutes and I never heard from them again.

I don't want the anti gunners telling me that I have to do this, do that, get bills of sale, etc, etc, so I think it's silly to create Red Tape where there is none.
 
Jim Keenan
The "off paper" gun is now pretty much a myth; most guns can be traced, if someone wants to bother, at least to the last legal owner.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't agree with that. I've seen many guns that have passed through the hands of several "legal owners" and the owners have no idea where the gun came from or where it went.

Got a number of them myself. I have no idea who I bought them from and the seller has no idea who I am.

And that's the way I like it, all nice and legal.;)
 
Derek, you have a CCW and you don't want "them" to know you have guns? What do you think they think you are carrying?
Click to expand...
I'm not hiding from "them." I just prefer to keep my firearms purchases private, thanks.

Ain't no-one's business what I've got, when I bought it, who I bought it from, or who I sold it to. Hell, I don't keep records so I generally can't tell you who I bought/sold from either.

I buy from dealers as well, when it's something I want that I can't find used locally or need a warranty on (I needed the warranty on the Carbon 15 for instance -- went back 3 times, but Bushmaster finally got it running nicely).

I guess my take on it is this: I'm overregulated and overmonitored. We're building a society where everything is monitored, especially purchases. It seems kind of orwellian when my credit card issuer sends me a statement at the end of the year that conveniently categorizes all of my purchases over the last year, the vendors, the amounts, and so on. And I wonder why I get so much junk mail.

It's the same at the grocery store. At the local Walmrt alternative, I was buying meat one day, found the only decent looking cuts (a set of T-bones for $23), and noticed that the price would be an additional fifteen dollars more for those of use who didn't want to use a "please track my buying habits" card. I don't shop there any more.

eBay? They record anything you've ever bid on, anything you've ever viewed, any IP address you've ever used, and they hand it over to anyone that cares to send a faxed request on letterhead. Radioshack doesn't want to sell me anything without a phone number -- for years they tried to refuse to do so (the "I don't have a phone -- why don't you list your number there instead?" response sometimes worked, or I could make something up). I'm going to have to give the FCC my SSN when I apply for my amateur radio license. It goes on.

I guess I just feel a little constricted by the level of monitoring in society these days. So, I do little things like buy as much as possible in cash, buy from private sellers, and purchase firearms (and other "eyebrow raising" items) from private sellers, off-paper.

Call it my way of ineffectively fighting the system. :D
 
Bills of sale don't mean much. The *real* problem is that you might be selling a gun to someone who isn't allowed to possess one, and that can land you in jail regardless of how well documented the sale was.

What you really want to do is to have the person sign a short statement saying simply that to the best of his knowledge he is not prohibited from possessing firearms. Such a statement would provide good evidence that you made a good-faith effort to prevent transfer of a firearm to a prohibited person.
 
Here's the form for the bill of sale that I use:

BILL OF SALE—PERSONAL PROPERTY

In consideration of payment of the sum of _____ Dollars ($_____), the receipt and sufficiency of which is hereby acknowledged, (Seller's name) (the “Seller”), of (Seller's address), SELLS AND DELIVERS, to (Purchaser's name)(the “Purchaser”), of (Purchaser's address), the following personal property (hereinafter, the “Personal Property”):

(description of item, make, model, caliber, serial number)

The Seller warrants that: (1) the Seller is the legal owner of the Personal Property; (2) the Personal Property is free from all liens and encumbrances; (3) the Seller has the right to sell the Personal Property; and (4) the Seller will warrant and defend the title of the Personal Property against any and all claims and demands of any persons.

The Seller expressly disclaims any and all express or implied warranties as to merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. Further, the Seller disclaims any warranty as to the condition of the Personal Property. The Purchaser has been given the opportunity to inspect the Personal Property or to have it inspected and the Purchaser has accepted the Personal Property in its existing condition.

SIGNED, SEALED, AND DELIVERED this _____ day of (month, year).


____________________
[Seller's name]

SIGNED this _____ day of (month, year).


____________________
[Purchaser's name]
 
Go to Packing.org to check the gun laws of your state. In Florida, the only requirement in FTF is that both be residents of FL. To that end, I always require to see FLDL. However, I have been maintaining my own database on all guns I have ever bought/sold - so, if the guy is not a registered dealer at a show, or doesn't have a CCW, I will also write down his DL# for my records. If the other guy doesn't want to do that, it's a free country - no harm, no foul - we walk away.
 
This is an example of the bill of sale I use when I do not know the buyer or seller personally and trust has not been established:


FIREARM BILL OF SALE
STATE OF COLORADO

PURCHSING PARTY

NAME: John Doe

STREET ADDRESS: 12345 Main St.

CITY:Anytown COUNTY: Western ZIP:98765

D.O.B.: (DDMMYYYY)01-01-1975 TELEPHONE: (123)456-7890

COLORADO DRIVER LICENSE #91-876-5432

FIREARM

MANUFACTURER:Colt MODEL:M1911
(CIRCLE ONE)
HANDGUN / RIFLE / SHOTGUN CALIBER/GAUGE: .45 ACP

ACTION TYPE: Single action semi-auto SERIAL #:SSXXXXXXX

PURCHASING PARTY DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

I certify that I am the actual buyer of said firearm and that I am at least 18 years of age, a citizen of the United States and a resident of Colorado. At time of purchase I am not prohibited by law from purchasing or possessing a firearm under any state or federal laws. I have never been convicted of a felony or the misdemeanor of domestic violence. I am not a mental defect, alcoholic or user of narcotics. I have not been dishonorably discharged from the armed forces.

I, the purchaser of said firearm have inspected the unit and acknowledge its condition to be _____95%_____. I also acknowledge that the selling party bares no responsibility for any injury or damage resulting from the use or malfunction of the firearm. I understand the firearm is sold as is and without warranty, express or implied.

Buyer signature__________________________Date________________________




SELLING PARTY STATEMENT

At the time of sale, I certify to the best of my knowledge that said firearm is in good working order and is in good standing with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. I am of age and legal status to purchase, possess or sell any firearm not requiring special permits. I AM NOT a federally licensed dealer. This transaction is conducted privately and at a location other than a “gun show”, therefore not requiring an NICS background check.


PURCHASE AMOUNT: 500 DOLLARS

PAYMENT RECIEVED IN FULL

Seller Signature_______________________________Date_1 January 2000

Printed Name: Joe Smith Telephone (123)098-7654
Click to expand...
 
I love flea markets buy all you want and no hassel with paper. If he's a dealer I just walk on.. I but some guns on paper and some face to face. Like others I had one I sold come back on me was used in a Bank robbery in WA. I lived in Co. Answered questions and never heard from Feds. again.
 
MachIV and Alfadog: Nice bill of sale blanks for a gun. I am impressed! I may just have to make a copy of that and save it for future reference.

I posted earlier and I am sometimes a little paranoid about personal gun sales. That said I rebel against states like Pennsylvania, Maryland, California and others that require that the "individual" gun transaction be run through a FFL holder and the background check be conducted. There is always a charge for this service by the FFL (rightfully so, I might add). But it again restricts my freedom. Part of the appeal of individual sales is that there is no hassle to complete Form 4473. I keep records and track which guns I completed the 4473 on and so forth when I buy.

With individual sales where legal, there is always a chance of liability issues to develop. In my opinion, the liability comes from negligence and not the fact that you sold it to someone or that the gun was later used in a crime. My sales are rare, but I generally like to visit a little with the person and to see their drivers license. I can only judge from what I see and hear. I do like to be confident that at least they are over 21 (or 18) and have the appropriate state drivers license demonstrating that they live in the my state. I also usually record the name and address of the person for my personal records, but that is generally as far as it goes in reality. No receipt other than keeping my own records.
 
One thing that's hardly ever brought up about filling out bill of sales, swapping driver's numbers, etc, whether you are the buyer or the seller.

Do you really want a TOTAL STRANGER to have your name, address, telephone number, date of birth, driver's license and the knowledge that you own guns?

If he's a bad guy, do you think the info you get from him means a thing?

You might as well give him the keys to your car so he has transportation when he cleans out your house.

And with half that information they can get your Social Security and other information to do a real job on you.
 
Put me as a "+1" with what Derek said.

Not everything about me has to be recorded somewhere. And if it is, I take great joy in knowing that I have intentionally filled some marketing databases with completely bogus information.
 
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