Reality vs Rambo!

[Pendragon]

Not everyone on here is a regular civilian.

Not everyone with ccw lives in a rural area.

Some people really are "targets".

No such thing as too much training or practice.

Use enough gun, have enough bullets.

That said, my ccw will be a J frame and a speedstrip.

 

[Harold Mayo]

There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker.

Victim mentality. "I don't think that I can do anything about it so I won't even try" is not the way I want to live my life. You CAN prepare for an armed attacker, just like you can prepare for any adversary in any situation in life, be it in business, relationships, etc. Reality disproves your statement.



If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it.

If somebody wants to ambush you, then you CAN'T avoid it. An ambush is, by definition, a surprise. You can avoid places and situations where something like that might be more likely, MAYBE, but not always. A person's work or other circumstances might force them into situations where there IS an elevated risk. Merely living in some areas is sufficient.


What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.

No argument there, but I don't go hunting for trouble, either. As stated before, I'm more concerned about the UNlikelihoods.


Besides, the original post never mentioned not "training" or being prepared, Wildalaska just takes the position that some guys have a Tackleberry mentality and generally gravitate toward overkill.

The implication is sufficient. Overkill is a matter of opinion.


Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds?

Exactly the point. If we're wanting to play odds, then we won't even carry a gun or carry insurance. If a guy wants to carry a bunch of spare ammuntion, then that's his choice. I normally carry a Browning hi-power with a regular-capacity magazine...total of 14 rounds in the gun. Am I crazy for this? Rambo, perhaps? Because I don't carry postban magazines? Because I sometimes carry a WHOLE OTHER magazine loaded to full capacity with 13 MORE rounds?


I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.

Trying to stop the attack, of course. Death is a possible (and unfortunate) side-effect. "Most" and, from above "might" are words that imply the possibility and are subjective, anyway. I am unlikely to be involved in an armed incident. If I am involved, I would consider it most likely to be with some meth-head from the area in which I work coming after me because I'm carrying cash from my business...this is an unlikely event but one that I have considered. A friend of mine doing bodyguard work in the former Soviet Union for American business interests is MUCH more likely to be involved in an armed confrontation. If he participates in discussions on this forum about bullet-proof vests and which type of ammunition happens to penetrate glass best, is he a "Rambo"? Are Russian organized crime enforcers that dedicated?


You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine.

Violent crime happens more often than you imply. Individual circumstances will dictate. What people wish to do as a hobby or a profession and what they discuss on a board dedicated to it in their own time and at their own discretion should not be criticized by a visitor to that board.

But most of us have lives

Hmm? Implying that I do not? That I am some sort of gun-training fanatic? I manage a mine, play with my two daughters, carry on a relationship with my wife, work in the yard, just finished a master's degree at night...enough of a life for you? I happen to ENJOY collecting firearms, trading around with them, experimenting with them, working on them and training with them. Because I happen to have this as a hobby rather than sitting around and watching football, bowling, constructing model trains or some other such activity, does that make me a "Rambo"-wannabe? Does watching Monday night football and talking about it with your buddies make you a "wannabe" quarterback? Does the "fishing" listed as one of your hobbies make you a "wannabe" fisherman? You really ought to reconsider your criticisms.

 

[Betty]

I guess I'm a micro-Rambo-ette in equipment, but not mentality.

El Tejon (I liked "KS Freeman" better ) summed it up well, but I'll add a little more:

Being half the size of most of you, and being female also makes more more of a target than say, a big intimidating looking guy like PATH. I look like easily pickings, and I have to escalate in force quicker and to a higher level, because it's my 103 pounds against a 200 pound man, and I feel more threatened.

My current carry rig is a .45 USPc with one spare mag and an NAA Mini BUG, all tucked in my bellyband.

Why the spare mag? I hope I never have to use it, but I've had the bottom fall out of a mag before (not in my USP), and if that happens during a fire-fight, I'm in deep trouble.

Why the BUG? Because I'm only a "runt", I'm more likely to end up flat on my back on the ground when the big scary rapist suddenly tackles me. I may not be able to reach my USPc, but I can reach my Mini with my left hand.

There's also a multitude of other reasons for BUGs and spare mags.

I'm certified to carry an ASP as a less-than-lethal alternative, but it was too much to carry around with the other stuff.

I carry a Surefire E2E - it was handy in finding the missing office kitten.

I carry sharp things because I like sharp things and they're good for utility and other .

Sometimes I carry more because I just bought a new gun and want to enjoy it, or because it amuses me.

 

[Rangerover]

I carry a Surefire E2E - it was handy in finding the missing office kitten

Any Rambo or Ramboette that likes guns AND cats gets a big thumbs up from me!

 

[tobeat1]

Let me share some insights with you guys. Having pointed a firearm at a living person with the intention of shooting them dead I can honestly state that the thoughts running through MY mind at the time was "s%$T!, I wish I had a bigger gun." Maybe I just have feelings of inadequacy from something from my childhood.

p.s. I was carrying a 45 at the time.

 

[Jeff White]

Wildalaska,

I can somewhat understand your basic premise about playing Rambo, but I'm a bit confused by some of the examples you've used.

For instance;

In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog.

Armed attacks by strangers are pretty rare just about everywhere, but they do happen, everywhere from the best neighborhoods in suburbia to the mean streets of South Chicago or Gary, Indiana. And if it does happen...it's dog eat dog.

Look at it further, even POLICE shootings are one or two rounds, so your chance of being the victim of a mass attack of armed savages and needing to do tactical reload in your CCW jurisdiction are statistically low...

Even though police shootings may average out to be a few rounds per gunfight, the police still train to do tactical reloads. Why do you think they do that? From an adminstrator's point of view, training is expensive, it eats up money, often at overtime rates that could be better spent elsewhere. So if you are the chief of police or city manager, do you have your officers train to do tactical reloads? After all statistically, all the gunfights end in a couple rounds. Good risk to take? A lot of administrators don't think so, because training in tactical reloads is a basic task now. As an leader, you have a moral obligation to train your officers so that they are ready for any situation they may meet. As an admistrator, you have an obligation to protect your agency from civil action by providing the best training you can. As an armed citizen, it's only prudent that you train for the worst case scenario. Better to have the skills and not need them, then to need them and not have them. The one time in your life you may be faced with multiple armed assailants, you don't want to be going into mental shutdown and denial saying; "This isn't happening to me, it's statistically improbable"

Further...and most importantly...your weapon, under most laws(and please correct me if your law is different), is a DEFENSIVE weapon that is only to be used to halt or prevent the use of DEADLY physical force upon you IF you are unable to retreat...you cant shoot a person who punches you in the nose!

You are correct. Even the weapons carried by the police are defensive weapons. However you are being pretty general about what constitutes deadly force against you. Granted the person who punches me in the nose at 6'2" 240 lbs, is probably not attacking me with deadly force. But the person who punches a woman who's 5'1" and 90 lbs may be attacking her with deadly force, especially if he's say 6' and 190 lbs or bigger. There is a lot that goes into the does and don'ts of the use of force. We could spend days just discussing the scenario I just mentioned.

Nor can you generally play hero under the law...sure there are exceptions...for example you can use deadly physical force against another to prevent an arson for example..or to prevetn the use of deadly physical force against another..but you better be DARN sure that you are right or you are gonna be cooling your heels in the police hotel for quite some time...Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...I think not and you are a dangerous fool if you do...rather you should do what a normal, reasonable person will do...get on that cell phone and call 911..let those who are paid to get shot at get shot at...

I think that every thread that gets going on a subject like this, pretty much ends up the way you just described. But it's good that we talk about such things here, so that those who don't know any better may learn.

What is far more likely is that someone jumps at you with a knife, you cant get away, and you put one up his schnoz...you dont need a 10mm with three extra mags to do that do you...

No you don't..but what if your assailant isn't alone? Read the police blotter section in any urban newspaper. How many robberies like that are conducted by lone assailants, and how many have at least two? I'd say that even though your chances of being robbed by one person are better then your chances of being robbed by two are more, that enough assaults and robberies are conducted by more then one assailant are high enough to justify being prepared. You brought the statistics thing up earlier, just thought I'd throw some back

Or some jerk off jumps into your car, threatens you with an ice pic...gonna be tough drawing that full size 1911 from an IWB isnt it...

That's why you're going to drive with your doors locked. And if you must go into an area where carjacking happen frequently, you'll arm yourself more appropriately, an ankle holster carry is one of the best for employment from behind the wheel. But how are those people who don't know that going to find out if we don't talk about it?

In both scenarios you are better off shoving a 32 in your pocket than your fancy carry gun...easier to get at..and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry peice..

Choice of weapon and method of carry are things that often are dictated by the situation. I don't understand what you mean by,

and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry piece

If you are flashing your weapon around, you've got no business carrying it. If you are referring to the legal Old wive's tale about prosecutors charging someone because they carried a custom pistol or hollow point ammunition so they must have been looking for trouble to start with, I challenge you to show me one case where the legal criteria for a defensive shooting was met, and those factors were brought into it. Now they may be brought into it if there are some questionable actions on the part of the shooter, but I don't know of any cases where it was an otherwise good shooting and someone was prosecuted because they showed they were looking for trouble by carrying their custom carry piece.

What measures to take as you take responsibility for your own safety are very personal decisions. If you have decided that the .32 in your pocket mets all of your needs, then that's great. If your purpose in this thread was to convince others that you've made the right choices for everyone, then you've failed. I think that you'll find that those who study the dynamics of conflict and prepare for the worst with their training are the least likely to be involved in a shooting unless htier employment regularly takes them into harms way. The more you learn about winning a fight, the more you also learn about avoiding it.

Jeff

 

[triggertime]

Wildalaska: While I understand your personal mindset and your desire to rant and berate those that think differently from you, you have to understand that there are two types of people that carry a gun.

The first type are those that carry a gun, rarely shoot it, have no formal training, gleen the majority of their information from gunrag publications and then have the veracity to get on the internet and pontificate on topics that they literally have no personal experience with and are not qualified to comment on.

The second type are those that take things a little more seriously, they shoot weekly, train regularly, have received formal training in one form or another and are generally highly knowledgable due to their own personal experience.

You'll find that the people of the second type have a completely different mindset from your own, and contrary to your personal belife, they are not the rambo worshipping mall ninja wannabes that you have stereotyped.

These are just people that have had the proverbial wake-up call due to a life threatening situation that has altered their psyche and reprogrammed their mindset to focus on self sufficiency and to assume the personal responsibility of being able to defend their lives at all times while maintaining an extremely high level of proficiency with their self defense weapons of choice.

Obviously, some people value their life more than others than to rely on an ineffective 6oz. .32 auto as a primary self defense weapon.

And with all due respect, it sounds like you fit into the catagory of the first type, so I'll just take your comments with a grain of salt if that's ok with you.

 

[BillCola]

I used to think the same way as Wildalaska. My story here, like all of my stories, will be very short because I never learned to type...

I started taking front-line tactical firearms courses when I became convinced that being a take-a-breath-in-let-half-of-it-out range shooter was less than useless when it came to having the skills required to save your life under life-threatening stress.

Advancing into force-on-force tactical Simunitions courses, this became crystal-clear. All of a sudden those pretty 3/4 inch pairs in the chest and tha headshots became testicle hits and misses. This, while knowing there was no way I would get seriously injured or killed in the scenario. (Oh yeah: I'm now pretty sure a testicle hit with a live round will alter your opponent's behavior.)

I never really thought I would need to use deadly force in my lifetime before I started all this. A large part of the training has refined my sense of situational awareness to where I'm all but completely certain I won't get into trouble.

At this point, I train to stay sharp, and it is just plain fun. Like peeling an onion, every course exposes weaknesses that will take 2 more courses to overcome.

I carry a Batbelt because I like the best of things and know how to use them. But my real peace of mind comes from the equipment between my ears.

If that makes me Rambo, oh well...



I sincerely hope that none of us will never really need this craft.

Bill

edited to add the 'c' in sincerely; again, the typing...

 

[Soap]

To further expound upon the subject,

Carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility. This means that if I'm going to do it, I better be able to do it well under any kind of condition or circumstance. For example, I recently purchased a new car. I wasn't sure how it would handle in certain situations so I went out and tested it to make sure that I knew how to handle a bad situation. This included spinning it around in snow, driving at high speeds, hitting the brakes quickly, etc. I will probably never use any of this, but when I do, damn sure I better be able to handle it and know how I will react.

I try to listen to the voice of experience, so if I'm going to do something, I listen to those who know the subject better than I. I don't think that anyone can refute the experience of C.R. Sam. I recall that once he said that he always advocated shooting from odd positions. These positions were probably not likely statisically, but if he needed to shoot from them, his bases were covered.

Furthermore, I don't care if you're one of those types of people who feel like a million bucks if they tuck an NAA mini in their watchpocket. I'm glad they feel comfortable. I don't jump on the backs of people who don't train, because I couldn't care less. So don't imply that people are mall ninjas just because they train. It is bad form.

 

[Soap]

Bill- Thanks for the story. You said it all here:

I sinerely hope that none of us will never really need this craft.

Amen to that. Gunfighting skills are something that you will most likely never need, but if you need those skills, you really need them.

 

[Keith]

Interesting discussion.

On one hand, the guy who spends endless hours and money upgrading his skills and equipment is probably overdoing it - but, so what? His hobby hurts nobody and surely his skill will serve him to some extent if the shiitte hits the fan.

On the other hand, we all know people who've gone out and gotten a CCW who can barely shoot. Think back to your CCW class and you'll likely recall some schmuck who could barely handle a weapon safely and just managed to squeak through marksmanship "training" to get a carry license. He probably hasn't shot his gun since then.

Who do you want behind you in line at the convenience store when some thug draws a gun on the cashier?

I dunno... I'd rather throw stones at people who don't shoot enough, rather than at people who shoot "too much".

Keith

 

[trapshooter]

Heck,

where I live, the average joe can't carry off his own property, legally.

A few other folk here in the same boat. We still yack (type) it up and practice 'unecessary' skills.

I guess we'd better check into the local mental institution.

Maybe we're just jealous.

 

[MountainPeak]

Most of the "Rambo" type talk I hear in real life comes from people that are not active shooters. They are the ones that hip shoot a MAK or AK and hit a dirt bank 20-40 times real fast. Never mind that the hits probabably coverd a 10 YARD area. I guess it impressed their new girl friend or a non-shooter buddy. Most of the people I know that carry extra fire power/mags have also trained with it. I see nothing wrong with that. Of course, these people don't feel the need to talk Rambo like!

 

[Wildalaska]

Glad to see that this has encouraged a debate, and that SOME of you did in fact read my post...

A few points...

Everyones circs are different (and yes I have been to the anus mundi, Gary Indiana)...so the fella carrying $10, 000 cash on the streets of Gary is gonna have a lot difeerent needs tha me walking on the tunndra...

Now I have never denigrated tactics or equipment..what I have denigrated is a mindset...the Rambo mentality, the Tactical Ted...the ones who view the carrying of a firearm as an extension of their penis (if they have one sorry ladies) and as AGGRESSIVE, rather that DEFENSIVE and appropriate..you can tell who those people are form the tenor and content of their posts...and I think some of you do..

A few specifics now, although I generally do not respond to ad hominem attacks...

Wildalaska: While I understand your personal mindset and your desire to rant and berate those that think differently from you, you have to understand that there are two types of people that carry a gun.

I dont think my post was either a rant or a berate, seems like perhaps we have some projection here...and enlighten me...what is my mindset?

The first type are those that carry a gun, rarely shoot it, have no formal training, gleen the majority of their information from gunrag publications and then have the veracity to get on the internet and pontificate on topics that they literally have no personal experience with and are not qualified to comment on.

Ah, so you recognize that there is sometimes a problem...perhaps we agree we have "rambo wannabes" around here?

The second type are those that take things a little more seriously, they shoot weekly, train regularly, have received formal training in one form or another and are generally highly knowledgable due to their own personal experience.

Those are the people that have information we cann all learn from.

You'll find that the people of the second type have a completely different mindset from your own, and contrary to your personal belife, they are not the rambo worshipping mall ninja wannabes that you have stereotyped.

WEll first you have to tell me what my mindset is, and then tell me how I sterotyped anyone as a "mall ninja"...

Obviously, some people value their life more than others than to rely on an ineffective 6oz. .32 auto as a primary self defense weapon.

Ah I see, so your claim is that anyone who carries a mouse gun does not value their life..that only peiople who carry "BIG" guns do....in other words, carry your MP5 down the streets of Gary Indiana, lots of criminals there..the only persons then who appropriately carry a firearm, despite any other circumstances or the level of their traing, are those that carry a "BIG" gun...

And with all due respect, it sounds like you fit into the catagory of the first type, so I'll just take your comments with a grain of salt if that's ok with you.

Absolutely thats find...as long as you share with me the secret of your omniscience that allows you to glean my mindset from a post....

 

[BillCola]

Dad gummit, now I'm ashamed for not reading your post!

 

[Wildalaska]

. If your purpose in this thread was to convince others that you've made the right choices for everyone, then you've failed.

You misinterpeted my purpose....remember my closing line..
"So guys, lets not stop talking about our favorite things...but lets temper it with a bit of reality..ya get a newbie asking "gee whats best to carry" maybe we can interject a little common sense into all of this.."

Just looking for a reality check.....

 

[Wildalaska]

So don't imply that people are mall ninjas just because they train. It is bad form.

I trust I did not say that, did I?

 

[cheygriz]

WildAlaska,

Your posts on this thread show more common sense and maturity than than I've seen in a long time.

I have 20 years experience in law enforcement, with 15 years as a certified police firearms insrtuctor. I've had several hundreds of hour of formal firearms training from instructors with the NRA, FBI, police academies and other government and private entities.

You are absolutely correct about mindset, my friend. And I believe that if some of the folks who have been flaming you would take a moment to stop and seriously think about what they're arguing, they would agre with you.

It's easy to be "macho Rambo" when you're young. Been there, done that. It's a bit more difficult, (at least it was for me) when you hit about 30, to seriously rethink your beliefs and values. If you do, you've taken a large step toward maturity.

 

[Soap]

I trust I did not say that, did I?

Well this thread is a direct reaction to something that I stated in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1428

You directly quote me in the beginning of this thread where I stated that it is tough to do one-handed manipulations with snag-frees. You ridicule full size 1911s, spare mags, and practicing advanced gunhandling. You imply that none of this is practical and that it is evidence of some sort of problem with distinguishing fantasy from reality, or that it stems from some problem with aggression. You didn't say it explicitly, but you really didn't need to.

Also, drawing from IWB takes the same amount of time for a full size 1911 as it does with a P32. Unless you are bowling. Which is a tell-tale sign of bad gunhandling.

BTW- I really like your guns. Good work and good concept

 

[Keith]

I think we did read your initial post. Some of what you said makes sense to me and some doesn't.

For example: "Time and time again I read about and listen to debates about how you need "snag free sights in case you have to clear a malfunction one handed", or must have a "back up" weapon,"

Well, if your weapon is intended for concealed carry (as opposed to shooting beer cans on Saturday mornings or hunting), you'd damned well better consider snag free sights and practice clearing malfunctions.

If I wander into WW Guns (which I have done on many occasions), and ask you about Marlin Rifles, you (I hope) are going to ask me what my intentions are - is the rifle for use as a bear back-up while fishing, for hunting, for silhouette shooting? Depending on what the rifle is for, you'd offer different options or even suggest a different rifle altogether. And I would value your opinions on the matter because your shop has a reputation in that area.

When somebody comes into this forum and asks about handguns or general carry information, he's going to get a variety of advice from a variety of people. And yeah, some of it is going to be overkill - snag-free sights, yeah - good idea. Backup guns... maybe that's overkill.

I just don't equate such advice with a "Rambo" mentality. A guy who has to carry receipts from his liquor store in Detroit out the door every night at 1am better have all the firepower and skills he can handle. That same guy might think my Guide Gun (with the WWG upgrades) is silly. He doesn't run across 1200 pound bears on a regular basis, and I don't have to carry cash through the mean streets of Detroit.

 

[Jeff White]

Maybe I haven't read enough of the threads here, but I don't see too many of the "Kill em all and let God sort em out..." type discussions get really going here before someone steps in and tempers things some.

In fact I think this is one of the best places for the Rambo wannabee to surf into. He's more likely to get educated here then anywhere else online, when he starts starts posting that way.

Guess I just didn't realize we had that problem here.

Jeff

 

[BigG]

I've read quite a few stories about police firing their hicap 9s dry, seems there's some kinda reflex that keeps an excited person hauling back on the trigger till the gun runs dry.

Larry Correia punctured many of these Rambo myths on a classic thread on The Firing Line.

 

[Wildalaska]

You didn't say it explicitly, but you really didn't need to.

Well I surely apologize if you think that because I borrowed your example that I was calling you a mall ninja (whatever that is)..

and again keep in mind I am not talking about training per se or even technique (and btw I can clear a jam one handed with a Novak sighted gun)...I am talking about a mindset of aggresssion not defense....

 

[Soap]

Wildalaska- A mall ninja is one of those type of guys who think they can destroy a terrorist cell because they have an HK SOCOM, M4gery with Trijicon/Surefire/etc.. They are the people that think that equipment=skill. They are also the same people who think that they are mean motor scooters when really they would cry like a baby if someone punched them in the jaw. In short, they pretend to be "operators" when really they are just wanna-be losers.

I guess the people here are unsure of exactly what you are trying to say. What exactly is your point? Is it one of statisics? One of need? Also, no offense taken. I just think that I (and some others) are not sure what you are trying to say.

Also, I can clear a jam one-handed with my Novak equipped 1911 as well, but I find that I can do it far more reliably with a gun equipped with a blocky set of Trijicons. YMMV.

 

[faustulus]

Remember the vast majority of us are theorists, not applied scientists. Get a bunch of theorists together that is what they do theorize.