Rifleman = 500 yard Torso shots???

[CWL]

Battle rifles from 100 years ago were ranged out to 500-1000 yards. They used full sized bullets and were meant for a different kind of warfare. Accuracy of the individual was stressed and static lines were more customary.

AK47s (and M16/M4s) are newer generation "assault rifles" meant for a different application. Using smaller bullets & propellants, they are meant for fast & close assaults, using overwhelming firepower to win a position.

You really cannot compare the 2 styles of firearms nor battle doctrines they were designed for.

 

[EyebrowZing]

at boot camp, pretty much everyone that qualified sharpshooter or expert (top two qualification tiers) was able to hit at 500 yards, all day long. bear in mind that was known distance, with wind socks and a "dope book".

Kinda amazing when you consider we only had 40 rounds of practice at 500 before qual day.

 

[sacp81170a]

So if you can regularly hit a postage stamp sized target at 25 meters(simulating a 500yd torso) on demand at anytime - you are a rifleman.

I'd still say that's a little bit of a stretch. Granted, hitting something that small at 25 meters ain't easy, but then you don't have to worry about doping the wind. The 400 meter mark is what separates the "riflemen" from the "cooks".

 

[mudslinging79]

wasnt the ak designed more for urban warfare? close fighting in streets and around buildings...

 

[James T Thomas]

eye of the squirrel

Back in the day of 1966; US Army, Infantry.

We were required to hit torso silhouetes at 460 meters; 503 yards.
That was with the M14/ .308, off hand, iron sights, braced.

Later in my "carreer" the 82nd Airborne Div. had a sniper school that used the same rifle, but with a bipod and scope up to 700 meters.

 

[[email protected]]

At our local range here it goes out to 500 meters, about 547yrds or so I'm told. I can hit the rams up there with a Garand, 03, k-31 or the Mini-14 after a couple "spotter" rounds, the fun part is watching my 8 yr old hit the ram with the mini-14 off a bench 3 out of 5 times. He "cheats" with a 3x9 scope but still dang good for a kid.

 

[Master of Arms]

Tried it today

My friend and I went to the range today and shot his 7.62 x 39 and a few other calibers. It became a laughing matter at 400 yards. That means "it was very difficult". But just as I told him today, " The year is 2008 " " We have many other options to achieve the exact same goal and effect " His rifle was , well lets just say, aged.

 

[bl4ckd0g]

The AK is not the answer for anything past 250 yards. A full-auto PKM should suffice.

 

[Master of Arms]

Hahaha

A full-auto PKM should suffice.

Now you`re talking.

 

[woodybrighton]

ak47 is meant for dealing death to the motherlands enemies as you leap from a bmp or btr comrade.
the dragnov will deal with the lone enemies of socialism.
but what if there too far away for the dragnov commissar? the americans claim there new sniper rifles can hit at over a kilometre comrade.
do not worry comrade the motherland knows how to deal with riflemen hiding in forests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-lGwyySrwY

as uncle joe said quanity has a quality all of its own

 

[LaEscopeta]

I may be wrong, as I was never in the military, but I believe they have you shoot at man sized targets at 600m with M-16's during basic.

I believe the US military rates the M-16 (20” barrel) as having an effective range of 600m, because an average boot camp graduate can hit a man sized target half the time at that range, with standard sights. How hard the round hits at that range is not considered in rating effective range. As noted above different military units have trained and qualified at different ranges over the years, mostly less than 600m.

As stated many times actually combat in WWII and after is mostly fought at 100 yards or less, with shots farther than 300m being very rare. Military planners always think their side will have the advantage if they can shoot further than the enemy. But in reality soldiers can’t shoot what they can’t see, and nowadays everyone from US Special Operators to Afghanistan tribesmen know how to use cover, concealment, camouflage, etc to keep from being seen at long distances. So I don’t think have–to-hit-a-guy-at-500-yards-to-be-a-rifleman is valid anymore.

 

[Art Eatman]

SFAIK, the 600-meter range came into being with some Pentagoner's idea that a 5.56 bullet should penetrate a modern helmet at that range. My understanding is that this requirement is what led to the heavier bullets now in use.

IOW, separate issue from marksmanship...

Art

 

[everallm]

Nonsensical question, you are talking about US requirements and non US weapons.

The question would be

What does the US military shoot to qualify with their issue weapon the M16

OR

What does Nation XYZ shoot to qualify with their issue weapon the AK47

 

[ochmude]

Having shot expert 5 consecutive times (twice with M16A2, 3 times with M16A4), with no previous rifle shooting experience prior to the Marines, I can tell you that the 500 prone is so easy it's actually relaxing. Having also deployed to Iraq, I can tell you that insurgents don't stand on top of a berm exactly 500 yards away holding flags to let you know which way the wind is blowing, allowing you to make a wind call while waiting for your "taaaaarget to appear". It's just like with handguns. Shooting hundreds of rounds from a nice tight isosceles at a paper target is great. Having that be your only practice for a possible home defense/personal protection situation just doesn't cut it, though.

 

[Atla]

I'd still say that's a little bit of a stretch. Granted, hitting something that small at 25 meters ain't easy, but then you don't have to worry about doping the wind. The 400 meter mark is what separates the "riflemen" from the "cooks".

Good point, perhaps I should say you're well on your way to being a rifleman!

 

[Slamfire]

You guys need to shoot some "Rattle Battle". Its fun. About the one place I have shot it is at Camp Perry.

http://www.tonyrogers.com/images/2003_campperry/rattle_battle_rules.htm

You start at 600 yards, then go to 500, 300 and 200 yards.

At 600 and 500 yards you shoot prone. No sighters, you estimate wind. You have six shooters, eight Army torso “E” silhouettes and 50 seconds to get as many hits as you can. Scored targets come up with spindles in the torso’s and that's when you get to see the hits.

I have scoped the targets when the really good service rifle teams shot. Those teams are the Army Marksmanship Unit, USMC, the Army National Guard, Navy, Coast Guard, and their Reserve elements. (The reserve guys are older characters who like to shoot, and they are always tough competition) I can tell you after 50 seconds, these guys make their scored targets look like porcupines. Wish I had a camera with a long range lense, thirty or more hits per target. Really impressive.

You would be surprised how well you can shoot rapid fire sitting at the Army F silhouettee at 300.

I would have loved to shoot it pre WWII. Four guys used Springfields and you had BAR’s on the ends as the sweepers. That would have been a hoot!.

 

[taliv]

slamfire, there may be some place closer, but we're now doing rattle battle practice in our clinics every month in oak ridge, tn. orsahp.com

next clinic is this weekend (saturday)

 

[rr2241tx]

With a full power cartridge and a reasonable length sight radius 500-600 yard shots at a man-sized silhouette are not that difficult when unopposed. Incoming fire ups the difficulty rating considerably, I'm told by old uncles who fought for France's right to call us names in French instead of German.

 

[danweasel]

My little story.

In the army I shot at the "known distance range" one time. I was in the Signal Corps so it is not too important maybe 11Bs do it more, I have no idea. You basically shoot 5 shots at 300 meters then back up 100m more, shoot again and then back up again to shoot 5 more times at 500m. I was one of six people out of 50 or so to hit the balloon in the middle of the target and get a coin from the CSM. It was all luck though-I couldn't even see the damn thing. But yeah, 300m is the farthest range you shoot a man-sized target to qualify with the M16/M4.

You would be suprised at the level of "marksmanship" in the Army. At least among combat support troops.

 

[funfaler]

Improving one's marksmanship is not that difficult or magical.

That is one of the benefits of the Appleseed Shoots http://www.rwva.org They take some of the "magic" out of being accurate out to 500 yards. At that distance, the shooter is the biggest factor in if it is getting done or not.

Most center fire rifles have capability beyond that of their shooters, so if we can improve the skills of the trigger pullers, then we can improve the accurace of this nation

Kids and Military are FREE, that starts to make learning to shoot accurately more affordable.

PM me with questions if you wish.

 

[GunTech]

Shooting 500 meters with good sights and a sling is not difficult with a decent rifle - on the range under good conditions - with no one shooting back at you. The earlier poster was quite right when they noted that over 90% of all infantry rifle fire occurs at 300 yards or less, and 70% at less than 100 yards. The average engagement range in the ETO during WWII was 75 yards.

Unfortunately, people try to map range shooting against combat shooting. The two are barely related - unless you are practicing at unknown range, shooting at a moving target that it using cover and concealment, and simulating taking return fire.

That is exactly why we spend so many round per single casualty, and why 'one shot, one kill' applies only in very special circumstance.

500 yard torso shots. No problem on the range.

BTW, how many of you know your come-ups to 500 or a thousand yards?

 

[funfaler]

Hey GunTech,

You have made some good points, in a very clear manner.

With your experience and understanding, do you think that an "aggressor" could orchestrate events to allow them to take advantage of their abilities to make hits at known distances, to conduct a "long ambush" on an unsuspecting force? Thus taking advantage of their lack of ability to be on a known distance, familiar range?


Your are right, that most rifle shooters have no clue of their come ups, not even from 100 to 300, let alone to 500 or 1000.