S&W 586 no dash, really a problem?

[gilgsn]

Hello.
I have been looking at Smith & Wesson models 13, 19 and 586 for sale, and stumbled upon a 586 no-dash, so without the -M. Would this be a reason not to buy it? I live in France so there would be no sending it to the U.S. for a fix, and I don't know if that work can be done in Europe. How much of a problem is it really? How often does the problem surface? What does actually happen? Can it be fixed by your average gunsmith?
It's cheap but this no-dash business has got me worried. I saw a 19 and a 13 for about the same price...
Thank you!
Gil.
Here is the revolver:

 

[fxvr5]

What problem are you talking about?

 

[gilgsn]

What problem are you talking about?

Hello, I read that the 586 no-dash had to be returned to S&W for a modification and were then stamped with a -M after the model number.
I just found a couple threads about it:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/questions-about-s-w-586-recall.664798/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...estion-for-revolver-experts-out-there.501639/
About the read them, I might have found an answer...
Ok, well, those two threads don't have much information other than it's caused by primers backing out, blocking the cylinder, and it's not that common. It does not explain why they would back out. I can only think of over-pressure, but one poster said it happened with factory ammo. I still wonder if the problem is worth worrying about, considering that apparently S&W no longer systematically applies the fix and I couldn't ship it anyway... Maybe I should get the 13 or 19, but then I'd worry about the forcing cone...
Gil.

 

[Jim Watson]

Yes, that is the case. I found:

When the early 686's came out, there were a few reports of the guns jamming when a certain brand of .357 ammo was used. The primer would blow back into the recoil shield hole where the firing pin came through and the gun would seize up. In answer to this, S&W issued a statement that they would replace the firing pin bushing and the firing pin to correct the problem. When the repair was done, the factory would stamp an M above the serial number in the frame to make note of the repair. The reports of the guns jamming were only when using .357 ammo; no problems with any type of .38. There are two schools of thought on returning the gun to the factory. I believe that it was an extremely low number of guns experiencing the problem. I have had several early 686's and had no problems with any type of .357 ammo in them. You can test your gun with several brands of .357 ammo and if no problems, I wouldn't worry about it. Nowadays, I would be hesitant to send an early 686 back to the factory for the work. Just my opinion. Hopes this helps.

Can you test fire before you pay?
If it passed proof test, does that show it is not subject to the problem?

 

[gilgsn]

Can you test fire before you pay?

Thanks Jim. I wish, but no, it's an Internet sale.
The fact that the gun is well used however is certainly an indication that it might be fine. No way to know if it was shot with hot 357 ammo though...
If I wanted to shoot mostly 38s I'd get a 13 or 19, but I'd like to try lots of different loads, as it is experimentation that keeps me shooting and enjoying it.
The 13 I found for sale is tempting too, though a bit rough:


The 19 I found isn't bad:

Gil.

 

[Mini30SS]

I wouldn't buy any used firearm without the ability to physically inspect it in person. This is especially true with revolvers that have had a lot of use. Especially S &W's and Colt's. I would be less concerned with Ruger's because their built like a tank.

 

[gilgsn]

I wouldn't buy any used firearm without the ability to physically inspect it in person.

Ideally, sure, but the site guarantees any sale for 30 days. I can always send it back...
Gil.

 

[Mizar]

S&W firing pins and FP bushings can be found at Numrich gun parts (US) for a reasonable price - the only problem is that someone has to order them for you and then send them to France, because they don't ship outside USA. Almost any competent gunsmith can replace that bushing - it requires a couple of specialized tools, but they are really not hard to make. That is IF you encounter a problem with some brands of ammo...

 

[gilgsn]

S&W firing pins and FP bushings can be found at Numrich gun parts (US)

Good to know, thank you!

So, what would be potentially more concerning, the 586 no-dash FP issue, or the forcing cone issue on models 13 and 19? Just to help me choose...
Gil.

 

[Mizar]

It all depends what you want to do with that revolver - if your intent is to shoot mainly magnums in it, then get the L frame (586), but if target loads are your main goal, then it's the K frame. And they are not that fragile as some people claim.

 

[MrBorland]

but the site guarantees any sale for 30 days. I can always send it back...

Even if you shot it? Maybe get the 586 and shoot it with some hot loads to test it.

Truth be told, if I were in France and want a reliable and strong service revolver to shoot full-house .357 loads with, I'd keep my eyes open for a Manurhin MR73. I don't have a "bucket list", but if I did, owning and shooting an MR73 might be on it.

so, what would be potentially more concerning, the 586 no-dash FP issue, or the forcing cone issue on models 13 and 19? Just to help me choose...

Either way, I'd avoid the lighter .357 bullets. Even so, if I were going to feed it standard 158gr .357 loads on a regular basis, I'd opt for the 586. The 158s might not damage the forcing cone of the 13/19, but a steady diet of .357s in the 13/19 will almost certainly increase general wear and tear. Recoil will also be a bit snappier with the 13/19.

 

[243winxb]

Looks like the hammer nose & hammer assemblies were replaced. If the tip of the hammer nose was to small in diameter, (??) its easly replaced with a new one. If hammer nose/firing pin is to small in diameter, primer metal would flow into the firing pin/ bushing hole. Causing a jam.

"Do not return L-frame hammer-nose bushings from your spare parts inventory inasmuch as they are useable in J, N and K-frame revolvers, which are not included in this Product Warning."

https://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls 5.htm See info at bottom of page.

Although there have been very few reported incidents of cylinder binding,

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1004133149The question is, can you get these parts in France? This part is easly replaced. This custom one is steel, will last longer then a cast S&W hammer nose. I have replaced 2 of them.

 

[Mizar]

The question is, can you get these parts in France?

You guys are even worse than the Germans, when it comes to sending some simple (non regulated) parts overseas - Midway simply does not ship outside the US...

 

[gilgsn]

Even if you shot it?

Hi, yes.. Thanks MrBorland. As to the MR73, I certainly would like one too! But $3K is a lot... I could get an MR88, saw one, ex-Brinks revolver for $400, 3" .357. It looks too much like a Ruger.. Not that there is anything wrong with Rugers, but aside from the Blackhawk, the S&Ws IMHO look better.
I think the 13/19 could certainly be an option. At my range, heavy loads are frowned upon, though they'll let people shoot a few once in a while. I just want to chrono a few 357 loads, not shoot them all the time. I'd just keep a box handy at home..

The question is, can you get these parts in France?

Thanks for the link! I can always ask a friend to get it for me and ship it, if I get that 586..

Gil.

 

[gilgsn]

You guys are even worse than the Germans, when it comes to sending some simple (non regulated) parts overseas

Right, I ran into that before. Starline does not want to ship cases directly either. However I was able to order SAA parts from Peacemaker Specialists, so some businesses do it.
Just FYa'll-I, in Europe it's not just the receiver or frame that's regulated, but also barrels, cylinders, slides, hammers, bolt carrier groups, and I'm not sure what else, though I doubt very much a hammer nose would be regulated. On the other hand we can buy a suppressor almost as easily as a loaf of bread.
Gil.

 

[Mizar]

in Europe it's not just the receiver or frame that's regulated, but also barrels, cylinders, slides, hammers, bolt carrier groups...

I know that rather well, as I happen to live in Europe... BTW, hammers are not an "essential component of a firearm" and are not regulated, at least in the EU. It's the fire control unit that is regulated, the whole of it, if it's a removable one - you cannot simply order an AUG full-auto trigger pack for instance, or a SIG P320 FCU without proper license.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I would get the 586 as I have a soft spot for L-frames. Even in the unlikely event of a FP bushing issue, it is corrected easily enough, whereas replacing a cracked M19 barrel is much more difficult and expensive.

Either way, you will probably be happy with the gun. They are both excellent revolvers.

 

[billybob44]

It may?? have been said before, but it is my understanding that the ONLY load that has duplicated the recall problem is the .357 Mag. Federal 125gr. Factory HOT loads.
If you stay away from these loads you should never have any issues, so Shoot Away...Bill.

 

[Tall]

I've been happy with my Model 19-5. I bought it new around 1988. I shot thousands of very hot 110 grain and 125 grain jacketed hollow points through it. This was before the internet existed. The nickel plating above the cylinder - where the barrel meets the cylinder on the top strap - is gone. Otherwise the revolver is in great shape.

 

[Russ57]

Get the 586 and don't shoot 125 JHP's. Or get the 19 and stick to .38's. Your choice. Personally if I only wanted to shoot .38's I'd get a model 15!

 

[cfullgraf]

My wife has a 4” 586-0 that has not been upgraded. She does not shoot full power 357 Mag ammunition and has not had an issue. We have elected to not get the gun upgraded.

Sounds like some folks have provided some solutions if a legitimate way around shipping can be found.

 

[Jonesy814]

The problem that brought about the M stamp recall was with 1 specific manufacturers load. I believe it was Federal. The ammo that caused the problem is no longer produced so no need to send them in

 

[gilgsn]

Thanks guys, excellent information!
I'll post photos here if I get one next week
Gil.

 

[Slamfire]

I had a no dash M686, it was a fine pistol. As I recall primers did have a habit of cupping, probably due to a larger firing pin hole, but that did not cause any malfunctions for me. I traded it off plus boot for a Python. Wish I had kept it.

I was sort of able to make that mistake up when this "blued" stainless steel M686 came available

The 586/686 are simply more rugged than the K frames, and are therefore a little heavier. Time has shown that they are an excellent, reliable, and durable 357 revolver. As long as a used L frame has not been dorked with by previous owners, it will function fine. I always recommend buying an extra mainspring just in case the old one has taken a set. No need for an extra power mainspring, standard factory is just fine. A weak mainspring will create mis fires, hang fires, with ball powders, or hard primers, all of which is aggravated in cold weather.

Bud of mine said he shot 60,000 rounds of 148 LWC 2.7 grs Bullsye in 38 Special cases through this M586 in PPC competition. He used Federal primers which are the most sensitive primers around.

I think this is a dash zero M586. Anyway in 40 F ish weather, I got hangfires and a squib shooting 158 LRN and AA#9 powder, a ball powder. The primer was WSP. I was able to knock the bullet out of the throat and open the cylinder by using a long shafted screwdriver. Yah tools and a block of wood!

Primer looks well hit, but looks are deceiving.

I installed a new S&W mainspring, went out the next week in 50 ish weather with the same ammunition. went bang every round. Mainspring strength is very important for reliable ignition. And sometimes old guns just don't have it anymore. Bud got away with it because he was using Federals and Bullseye pistol powder which is very easy to ignite.

 

[MrBorland]

The 586/686 are simply more rugged than the K frames, and are therefore a little heavier. Time has shown that they are an excellent, reliable, and durable 357 revolver.

Bud of mine said he shot 60,000 rounds of 148 LWC 2.7 grs Bullsye in 38 Special cases through this M586 in PPC competition. He used Federal primers which are the most sensitive primers around.

Right. I used a 686 in runNgun competitions, where fast DA shooting and fast speedloader-fed reloads are tough on a gun. Nonetheless, I put 60,000 - 70,000 plated bullets (over 3.5g Clays in .38 special cases running 825fps) through it before I relegated it to backup status, and even then, it still ran fine - I just happened to pick up a low-mileage 686 I tuned up as my primary gun. I'd likely get the same lifespan out of a Model 19, but I shoot an L-frame better. As mentioned, though, .357s will eventually add wear and tear on a K-frame .