Saiga 12 and the AWB

[36fan]

I've looked around several places (without any luck) and was wondering if the Saiga shotgun is going to be able to be sold with the pistol grip stock after the AWB sunsets. I know there is still the importing laws that affect the Sagia as well.

I'm wanting to get one new, not modify (move the trigger back, etc...) an existing Saiga.

Thanks!

 

[Langenator]

Saigas can only be imported in their current configuration. If you want a pistol grip and standard AK stock, you have to either do it yourself, or pay a gunsmith to do it.

In both cases, you have to meet the part count, because it's an import.

 

[The Last Confederate]

However, they can make the higher cap mags for the Saiga, correct?

 

[Langenator]

I believe if you take the mag capacity too high (not sure what the limit is), the shotgun would become a "destructive device" according to the ATF.

This would apply to both the 12ga and the 20ga, since their bore is over .50". Would not apply to the .410.

 

[Beren]

From the list of items defined as destructive devices:

"any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which
the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable
for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may
be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an
explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of
more than one-half inch in diameter"

EAA may be afraid that if they import eight round magazines, the ATF will step in and say:

"You know what? Those Saiga-12 and Saiga-20 shotguns are not sporting arms, but appear designed for combat. Who hunts with eight rounds? I hereby label those products 'destructive devices' requiring all the same legal footwork as other NFA items."

Only way to know is to write and ask the importer...

 

[hillbilly]

I, too, have been thinking hard about Siagas.

I found this website. Lots of good info here.

http://www.saiga-12.com

Apparently, EAA will sell the 8 round mags for 12 gauge as of Sunset.

hillbilly

 

[m39fan]

Pistol grip + detatchable magazine on a shotgun = Jail time. So, no I don't think you'll see these available anytime soon. As to those wanting to modify an existing Saiga shotgun, you cannot put a pistol grip on a shotgun with a detatchable mag, period. It has nothing to do with the AWB, this is some of their other nonsense. Some guys on other forums have claimed they received approval to put a pistol grip on a .410 since it is technically a caliber not a guage. So far, all of the "approvals" have been verbal and no one has posted a copy of a letter granting approval. Needless to say, although I will, with ANY government office GET IT IN WRITING. Otherwise you'll have people denying that they talked to you let alone gave you approval for something. Field Officers for the BATF seem to love to act bigger than they are and often will promise and approve things above their level of authority.

Sorry to rain on your parade. It seems the BATF will be busy for a while as people seem to think that with the ban's demise anything goes. Making their AK's into pistols, nuts that seem to think a FULL-AUTO SKS or AK will now be legal, on and on..... One guy wants to cut his pair of Remington 1100's down making the barrels even with the forearms. He figures they'll be great for concealed carry this winter under his coat!!! I'm not putting you down, the Federal Gov't seems to put out such a volume of rules, regs and laws in the hopes of getting someone on something. They'll be busy arresting plenty after the ban. Just make sure you're not one of them. When in doubt, ask the BATF and remember, get something in writing from the BATF.

HTH,
Mike

 

[armoredman]

I would have to see the pistol grip shotgun/magazine fed restriction. I saw pistol gripped shotguns mag fed available some time ago. Can you link to the law in question?

 

[Benjamin]

As to those wanting to modify an existing Saiga shotgun, you cannot put a pistol grip on a shotgun with a detatchable mag, period. It has nothing to do with the AWB, this is some of their other nonsense.

You are mistaken.

There is another point to consider, 922(r) compliance. To wit, the firearm cannot have more than 10 imported parts.

It will likely be possible to comply by replacing trigger group, stock set, and perhaps other sundry bits.

 

[dav]

Check this site for an American pistol grip/detachable mag option:
Knoxx Sidewinder
They have a 'legal issues' page that says you cannot put a detachable mag on a semi-auto shotgun or imported shotgun.

But you can on a Mossberg 500, and I want one of these Sidewinders!

 

[m39fan]

Well, I'm coming up with a big fat zero looking through the BATF stuff I have around the house. I may be wrong but I was in Law Enforcement pre-ban and remember at least one of the sales reps saying detachable mags and pistol grips were LEO only. Those are the only legal ones I've seen since the AWB for sure. I know several legal eagle types on gunboards have said shotguns can have only ONE "evil" feature i.e. detatchable mag OR pistol grip. I'll dig further but no matter the outcome, the advice is still good - ask the ATF directly and GET IT IN WRITING!

 

[Domino]

Well it has already been stated that shotguns can have a detachable mag or a pistol grip and not both, but what is the magazine capacity on a 12 gauge shotgun? Would 12 round drum mags on a Saiga in its current configuration be illegal? What makes it a "street sweeper", the grip or the mags or both? I personally like the Saigas current configuration but would like to see drum mags available. Who says you can't use drum mags when shooting skeet? That would be a blast!

 

[armoredman]

Is this the quote you are looking for?

"(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--
"(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
"(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the
action of the weapon;
"(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
"(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.".

If so, THAT'S THE AWB! It goes bye bye on Monday night!

 

[Domino]

Sweet man! That's the news I was wanting to hear! I thought that maybe there were some restrictions prior to the AWB regarding semi-auto shotguns. So, a Saiga with a standard AK side-folder (including pistol grip) and a 12 round drum would not be unreasonable, nice.

If so, THAT'S THE AWB! It goes bye bye on Monday night!

Actually the AWB expires 12:00 AM monday morning, or Sunday night, whatever sounds better.

 

[armoredman]

No, there never were any restrictions on magazines or action type with grip type on a semi-suto shotgun before the AWB, at least, not Federal. So, go forth, and have fun, with one little caveat - the Saiga is an import shotgun, so you may want to double check if it falls under the semiauto import ban in regards to magazine capacity, or just use ten round mags.

 

[Benjamin]

Domino - don't go tooling on it just yet.

You will still need to swap out parts so you don't run afoul of the '89 import ban (922(r) compliance).

Also, a 12 round drum would look stupid. There are 20 round shotgun drums, though....some say that USAS12 mags (incl. drums) will work with minor filing.

 

[another48hrs]

I have seen a box magazine fed, pistol gripped, and folding stock shotgun for sale. It was the Franchi Spas15 and last time I checked it was not leo but a very expensive preban.

I think the reason why a streetsweeper is considered a DD is because it uses a revolving fed system like a revolver.

 

[armoredman]

Last SPAS15 I saw was for sale at $7000. They only imported 200 of them before the import ban caught 'em. Ugly suckers, and made in fr*nce to boot.
That's it, according to the info awbsunset.com got from ATFE - the ban is dead! Died last night at 12:01 Washington DC time.....