Saw my first open carry yesterday

[ThomasR]

Thanks Johnny Dollar, yeah, it's been an interesting journey to get to this point.
Hello Kleanbore, I read the term in Lt. Col. Grossman (ret) essay "Of Wolves, Sheep and Sheepdogs", for me it it had alot of truth; so fill me in if you would, i'd be interested in understanding what you said.

 

[Grmlin]

WOW Sigpro this post took off!!

CC or OC? They are both good, we are all exercising our rights. Each one has it's pros and cons, and we all know the key is to practice, practice, practice which ever way you prefer and then practice the other way just as much. I try to as much as I can with both ways and both hands and different styles. I found some that just don't work for me others that work great for me.
Like I said before I primarily CC when in town, when the wife and I go for a walk OC and I usually set up for cross draw. I will say when I were shorts you all would get a good laugh if I OC my .357 or XD .40.

At least we can all agree on our right to carry I hope.

 

[AK103K]

A couple of things here and Im going to step off, as some of us seem to have differeing views that arent going to go anywhere but farther into annoyance.

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

Ive been carrying a gun daily (and concealed) for over 30 years now. Because of my line of work, Ive worked everywhere from deep woods to open farmland to some nasty inner city areas that even the police didnt seem to want to go, as we rarely saw one when we were there, day or night. I was happy I had my gun, and I was happy my buddy had his. No one ever targeted us personally, although some of our equipment didnt fair as well (maybe it should have been open carrying. OK, OK, sorry, I couldnt resit it, and Ill stop. )

Second, as ThomasR pointed out, how you carry yourself and how you act, actually goes a lot farther than what gear you may or may not be showing. Generally, if you act like a victim, youre likely to be one, even with a gun on your belt.

I will say this though, with dead seriousness, if youre wearing a gun, you better have some realistic skills, and be ready to use both without hesitation. If you havent worked this through in earnest beforehand, youre way behind the curve before you start.

From my experiences in some inner city neighborhoods, a gun carried openly would likely have been taken the wrong way, and have caused more problems, than not. While even the obviously criminal element was for the most part tolerating us being there, I truly believe that a blatantly exposed gun would have been the cause of trouble.

Ill admit, this is all just assumption on my part, as while we were working there, OC was not permitted at the time (some places, even carrying at all was verboten), and its still a big hassle with the cops as Im sure youve seen in that youtube video going around by the boy who was basically daring the cops to notice.

All the "studies" and statistics are great and all, but like all the paper ballistic arguments bandied around the net, to me, they lack the actual substance of actual personal experience. Now if you have carried in places like Im describing above, and have some real word experiences that show your claims that its truly a deterrent, that would tend to add some credibility to those claims.

 

[Mainsail]

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I carried openly on a DAILY basis for almost five years in Tacoma's Stadium District. In case you were unaware, Tacoma has the highest crime rate of any city in the entire Pacific Northwest. I never had a problem and my open carry deterred one crime against me (that I'm aware of).

The fantasies of the anti-gun folks and the anti open carry folks who assume they understand criminal psychology are proven wrong every day, yet whether it's Sarah Brady or some folks in here, they refuse to believe.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have no need to go to those places and I would avoid them the best I could. If I felt uncomfortable I could still cover up my weapon. It's not set in stone that I need to always carry openly or that open is the 100% way to go.

 

[AABEN]

Open Carry is a wonderful thing. I find it easier to conceal carry but the best way to raise OC awareness is to host little events that raise public awareness. Some responsible groups put on an Open Carry ice cream social, others do an OC trash pick up day. We have the right so let's increase awareness so it's not as big of a deal.

I think you have a good way to get people use to open carry. The states that have open carry should have gun clubs put some of thees on at lease 3 times a year all over the state.

 

[NavyLCDR]

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have open carried in the worst neighborhoods of Seattle. As for those others places you mention, why the hell would I go there? I have no need to go there and those are not my idea of prime vacation spots. I feel no need to go someplace for the sole purpose of showing my gun there. I will leave that for those guys that like to make youtube videos.

I'll continue to CC, if for no other reason that I'm too lazy to tuck my shirt in. Quite the thread I started. Not saying I'll ever OC, but i never realized there were so many arguments for OC.

Pretty amazing what you might discover when you are willing to keep your mind open to other points of view, eh? Nobody has the right answer for everybody in every situation, although some certainly like to claim they do. I have my CPL so that I can legally conceal my gun when I feel that is the most effective way to protect myself and my family from violent crime.

There are simply times when open carry is more effective and appropriate and times when concealed carry is more effective and appropriate.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

First, to those who favor OC, how many of you have actually "personally" done so in places that are truly "bad". Carrying around your local little burb or local Walmart doesnt really count, I mean somewhere like North Philly, Camden, East St. Louis, etc. If not, assuming youve ever been to a place like that, why not?

I have open carried in downtown Detroit, and have gone with buddies who have done so as well. As long as you dress somewhat nicely, the DPD hasn't messed with me. I don't make a habit of going down there at night, unless I'm going to Town Pump or Bookies in a large group. Those are bars so I cannot carry inside anyways, but if I'm doing other things in Detroit, like visiting some friends who live around there, I do open carry.

 

[AK103K]

The fantasies of the anti-gun folks and the anti open carry folks who assume they understand criminal psychology are proven wrong every day, yet whether it's Sarah Brady or some folks in here, they refuse to believe.

Sarah Brady and the antis aside, I dont disbelieve, I just dont see the point of possibly putting oneself into a situation that wouldnt likely occur if the gun wasnt visible. As far as knowing the criminal mind, this is why I asked about actually open carrying on foot and interacting amongst them on a regular basis. Ive done it for years concealed, and no way it will happen openly. I wont throw down that glove or give up that edge.

As I said before, I dont care if you open carry, its your right, but you also have to deal with the (for me, unwanted) attention it brings when it does come, and it does come. Ive personally seen that a couple of times here. OC is legal, but its not often seen, at least outside the few political statement type gatherings. Ive seen more about it on the local news than I have on the ground, and on the news, it was more about cops not knowing or understanding the law, and the aggravation that that brought. If you like to draw that type attention, have at it. Again, as I said before, bait and decoys are a good thing to me, and always welcome.

Even if I wanted do it, from the stand point of actually doing it here and trying to get on with your daily life, I dont see it being a realistic thing. If I didnt have a carry permit (so the gun could remain constantly loaded), as much as I move about and what I do for a living, between the constant loading/reloading when getting in and out of my truck (something that does you no good in a car jack situation, I might add), the environment Im often in, and worrying that something I was wearing work wise, might inadvertently "cover" the gun and put me in a bad situation in that respect, and just having a gun someplace probably shoudnt anyway, it just wouldnt work. But thats me and my lifestyle.

I have no need to go to those places and I would avoid them the best I could.

As for those others places you mention, why the hell would I go there? I have no need to go there and those are not my idea of prime vacation spots.

You dont get to play that one here. If you want to make your point, it needs to be "anywhere, anytime", after all, its you telling us that its such a deterrent and great idea. If thats true, then there shouldnt be a problem. Simply seeing your gun will keep trouble at bay, right?

Some of us dont have the luxury of avoiding or staying out of those type places. Ive had to work in all three places I used above, as well as a few others. A few of those places, we werent permitted to have a gun at all either. Open carry is definitely a no go there.

Theres also a bit of a difference between getting out of your car and walking down a city street with a lot of other people around, and being in secluded areas with no one else around.

If you want to see where the Iron Crosses grow, come work with me for a couple of weeks and wear your gun openly. You can prove your case, and we always welcome another decoy.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I just dont see the point of possibly putting oneself into a situation that wouldnt likely occur if the gun wasnt visible.

I don't see the point of possibly allowing myself to be the target of a criminal in a situation that wouldn't likely occur if the gun was visible.

 

[AK103K]

As I said, come work with me and well put your theory to a live test.

Who knows, maybe you'll make youtube too. We know how the Philly cops feel about it.

Since we know thats not happening, as you dont go to places like that, Ill leave it at that and you boys can keep at it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by ThomasR: Hello Kleanbore, I read the term in Lt. Col. Grossman (ret) essay "Of Wolves, Sheep and Sheepdogs", for me it it had alot of truth; so fill me in if you would, i'd be interested in understanding what you said [(refers to "the term "sheepdog" is usually not well received on THR")].

Col. Grossman was not referring to civilians who exercise the right to bear arms for the purpose of lawful self defense and who do not have a sworn duty to protect others by enforcing the law.

This subject has come up more than once. Here are a few relevant comments from the past:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5140543&postcount=35

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5140631&postcount=37

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5141103&postcount=42

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5141147&postcount=43

 

[TITAN308]

Not sure if someone brought it up yet (did not read all 4 pages), but I'd like to say the biggest urban myth for us OCers is we are "targeted first in a crime because you clearly have a gun".

When you ask someone who says this to provide a resource for said argument, well - they never can.

 

[45_auto]

My fastest time EVER was 1.12, from concealment, and that was standing on an indoor range, waiting for the "Beep."

Now you may be a lot more accomlpished than I am -- I am no Jerry Miculek (though I once beat him in a side match...) -- but I do not in any way buy this "most people" business.

I've MET "most people." They ain't that good!

No need to bring reality into an internet discussion, Sam! Don't challenge their illusions!

I ran IDPA matches for 7 years, your 1.12 is pretty good. "Most People" have never tested themselves but just know that they are at least the equal of Wyatt Earp.

In the real world, the adrenaline rush of waiting for a buzzer to go off brings on acts of incompetence to new competitors that you can't imagine.

In reality, having to draw their weapon for real, with their lack of training and loss of small muscle control caused by the adrenaline rush, would probably put "Most People" on here nearer the 5 second mark.

 

[TITAN308]

Better to have and not need, then to not have and need.

Or something.

 

[theicemanmpls]

As I said, come work with me and well put your theory to a live test.

Who knows, maybe you'll make youtube too. We know how the Philly cops feel about it.

Since we know thats not happening, as you dont go to places like that, Ill leave it at that and you boys can keep at it.

+1 ak103k.
I worked armed roving security in Oakland CA. Dog shift supervisor.
The gun was part of the uniform. It was all about running a bluff.

Walk down those streets wearing civilian clothing doing the OC? Couldn't pay me enough money.

People who think wearing a gun will keep themselves safe are fooling themselves, and trying to fool others. IMHO. In metro areas, it brings down upon the most unwanted attention from many sources.

Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.

The whole idea of CCW is to hide in plain site. Snake in the pocket. Why would anyone want to be the turd in the punchbowl?

Even in the old west OC was not that common. The natural elements as everyone here knows has a terrible effect on firearms. Firearms were very expensive in those days. Most folks kept their firearms cased untill needed. The two pistol Roy Rogers gun belt is pure HOLLYWOOD. The showdowns, bushwacks, and shootouts also. Anyone ever notice the natives always circled to the left when attacking the wagon train?

Another thing I learned about OC. Walk into a store, a resturant, a home, where is the first place they look at you? In your eyes? No, the gun. Most banks these days have no armed guards. You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson.

IMO, OC should be used with care.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by TITAN308: ... I'd like to say the biggest urban myth for us OCers is we are "targeted first in a crime because you clearly have a gun".

When you ask someone who says this to provide a resource for said argument, well - they never can.

Just over four years ago, a man with a .44 Magnum revolver decided to murder as many people he could in a gun-free building. He had no expectation of surviving.

His first victim was outside and walking away wen the criminal arrived. He was open carrying a .40 SW caliber pistol. The murderer shot the man in the back, took the pistol, and went inside.

His second victim was also open carrying.

The motive in shooting the first was clearly to obtain the pistol. The motive for shooting the second was to eliminate armed resistance. The only "armed" resistance that occurred before police officers entered the building from the station next door and killed the murderer involved the city attorney throwing chairs at the murderer.

Yes, these open carriers were uniformed policemen. That made them a lot more "visible". Other than that, there is no practical difference between the open carrier who is noticed in such a situation and a uniformed officer. The shooter had nothing against police officers. He got along well with both of his first victims. He would have had precisely the same motives for shooting anyone he knew to be armed.

A little common sense indicates that (1) a potential criminal will generally select a victim that he considers to be unarmed if he has the choice, but that (2) if he has already started an armed criminal action and notices an armed citizen entering or already present, he is likely to try to shoot the armed citizen for reasons of self preservation.

It is also likely that if the criminal happens to believe that he can get by with it without risk, he may take the firearm from the armed citizen just ofr the raking, and indicated in this recent incident: the open carrier in this incident that occurred just under four months ago was shot after his own firearm had been taken.

Open carry can certainly deter; it can under some circumstances cause a criminal to shoot the open carrier first because he has no choice; and it can bring about a gun grab under the "right" circumstances.

I would like to be able to carry openly, but I would not like to stand in line in some establishments with a firearm visible in a holster of any type. Were open carry a lawful option for me, I would dress so that I could cover the firearm at my discretion.

 

[porchdog]

I dont normally open carry but as a resident of Kentucky open carry is an option and always has been to my knowledge. I see people from time to time carrying open and have never seen anyone pay any attention to the fact. Its nice to know that it is an option even if most dont chose to do so.

 

[Mainsail]

A little common sense indicates that...

a. Anything is possible
b. It's foolish to the point of stupid to prepare for outliers and unique situations at the expense of the far more common
c. Regardless of your method of carry, situational awareness is as important as being armed
d. Cops get shot, concealed carriers get shot, open carriers get shot, unarmed people get shot, historically with equal distribution. Blaming a gun for crime is reflective of people who don't believe in private firearms ownership.
e. All of the above.

 

[TITAN308]

People who think wearing a gun will keep themselves safe are fooling themselves, and trying to fool others. IMHO. In metro areas, it brings down upon the most unwanted attention from many sources.

This makes no sense. Having no gun makes us just as safe as having a gun?

Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.

And heres where the credibility starts going down the drain. This comment shows you have no interest in educating yourself and have already formed a bias negative opinion. You fail at debate 101.

The whole idea of CCW is to hide in plain site. Snake in the pocket. Why would anyone want to be the turd in the punchbowl?

More ramblings of someone who dislikes OC.

Even in the old west OC was not that common.

Fail. It was actually considered negative to hide your weapons. A gentlemen did not need to conceal his tools.

Another thing I learned about OC. Walk into a store, a resturant, a home, where is the first place they look at you? In your eyes? No, the gun. Most banks these days have no armed guards. You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson.

URL? News Story? Please provide. Oh wait - you can't. These incidents happen so rare I don't even think they qualify as 0.01%

More bias ramblings by some yahoo who doesn't like something because its different.

IMO, OC should be used with care.

A gun should be handled with care period, the method of carrying it is irrelevant.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Maybe people who OC like the attention? Maybe they like frightening old maids, and liberals? I don't want to frighten anyone.

And heres where the credibility starts going down the drain. This comment shows you have no interest in educating yourself and have already formed a bias negative opinion. You fail at debate 101.

I agree. The moment you start presupposing someone else's motivations or thought process, you're essentially admitting you've lost the argument. Debate open carry on the factual merits, not on whether you think OCers are trying to be tough-guys.

 

[TITAN308]

Which is sort of ironic in itself right?

Someone talking like a tough guy to people he is accusing of being tough guys.

lol

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by TITAN308: [(in response to "You are standing in line, open carry, with your $2,000 Wilson, and a robbery goes down. Who in line is going to get most of the bad guys unwelcomed attention? You might lose your life, but for sure you will lose your Wilson)] URL? News Story? Please provide. Oh wait - you can't.

These incidents happen so rare I don't even think they qualify as 0.01%

Yes, armed robberies occur very rarely indeed. Armed robberies witnessed by armed citizens occur even more rarely. Armed robberies in which there are open carriers occur much more rarely still (and may in fact be deterred by the presence of the open carrier, or they may not, depending upon how the circumstances develop).

Unfortunately, one cannot conclude anything useful from that. When the conditions that may or may not lead to a particular outcome or set of outcomes occur very rarely, it is necessary to base one's assessment of the most likely outcome on something other that actual statistics.

People face that issue in all kinds of situations.

This is one of them.

I should think it a complete no-brainer to conclude that, if one is standing in line with a pistol on one's belt and armed robbers who enter unseen happen to notice the weapon, it is highly likely that the bearer will be shot, or his pistol taken, or both.

Of course, it is by no means a certainty. There are other possible outcomes.

I would not want to bet my life on any of them.

I can only imagine tow things more uncomfortable than standing in line with a visible weapon on my hip while people whom I cannot see and do not trust are standing behind me*:either open carrying in an establishment when an armed robbery occurs, or inadvertently walking in on one that is already in progress while open carrying. It would be frightening enough to be carrying concealed.**

*My bank would not be one of those places, but a quick-shop would, and there's a WalMart nearby that I go into only when there is something I need right away that I cannot get elsewhere; when I go there, my head is on a swivel, and I add a Blackthorn to my usual equipage of a Pepperblaster and concealed firearm.​

**I've almost had the latter happen. Not long ago, I noticed clear signs that a robbery was about to occur in a local grocery store. Before anything actuall happened, I took out a cell phone so that the getaway driver, who was in hand signal contact with the man in the store, could see me with it by the window. They aborted the mission. I was so rattled that I could not give a description of either person or the car. By the way, I do believe that had I been open carrying, the same result would have occurred. The problem is that people around here are so paranoid that I would hae been asked to leave to avoid scaring away all the customers.​

 

[old4x4]

OC just makes the sheeple jump up and down. I don't want to deal with that kind of crap.
In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

 

[TITAN308]

OC just makes the sheeple jump up and down. I don't want to deal with that kind of crap.

And I can just as easily tell you the countless stories of educating otherwise ignorant people because I was OCing. Guess it comes down to personality.

In my opinion, it also makes you target #1 in that "you're in a convenience store and its gonna be robbed" scenario.

Quote? Link? News article? Resource please.

I hear far more about shady people turning around and leaving a place after seeing an OC weapon than I've heard the other end of the spectrum, which is about zero times.

Its funny how a lot of gun toters think all non-gun toters are ignorant, but the amount of ignorance in the gun community is just as bad.

...uncomfortable than standing in line with a visible weapon on my hip while people whom I cannot see and do not trust are standing behind me...

Try wearing something better quality than an uncle mike's nylon holster if you are so paranoid about weapon retention. Also your lack of situational awareness is the problem, not the gun. Lots of OC's are trained to hold their elbow against the firearm when standing in things such as lines.