Schmidt-Rubin identification

[motorcycle_dan]

So feeding my addiction of old military bolt rifles I found a pair of these straight pull Schmidt Rubin rifles.

I believe the long (light color wood) is an 1889 and the shorter is a M1911.
Had a gunsmith cast the chamber for the longer one and verify it was safe to shoot. Checks out with 7.5x55 Swiss and shoots pretty accurate. I'm worried about that one in particular because all the reload data I can find specifically says not for 1889 models. So my question (hoping I'm able to link to the pictures)
Suggest reload data that is safe and accurate for both 1889 & 1911 models of Schmidt Rubin.
What size bullets are used? My data says .308 is that correct?
Is there a pet powder that works particularly well for the older rifles? I've got some 4064 and a bunch of Varget but would get something that works well in old rifles.
last question. Cast Bullets, anyone mess with the swiss round using cast bullets?
Now the pictures (I hope)
Read down a few posts, I figured out how to "manage attachments"

 

[EmbarkChief]

Dan I can't see your pics. Congrats on the rifles, wish I could help but I don't reload

 

[motorcycle_dan]

Stoopid pictures

So I've read the FAQ trying to understand how to post the pictures. Not getting it. How about this: In terms an idiot could understand. How do I post pictures?

 

[motorcycle_dan]

Pictures this time?

I hope.

yeah, it seemed to work. Okay read up a bit and would appreciate any help identifying the long rifle and what ammo is safe to shoot in it.

 

[AABEN]

It open for me! They look good.

 

[Slamfire]

I have a M1911 and it is a rear locking action. I don't shoot full power loads in the thing, not full power K31 loads.

 

[motorcycle_dan]

If it is a 1911, it should have locking lugs in front and back. From what I've been able to gather only the first model had just the rear locking lugs.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Caveat - below is a copy of a copy, something I scraped off a Swiss rifles forum a few years back ... the poster has his own warnings in the text. Myself, I ended up sticking with the K-31s and have found mild loads with Speer 125gr TNTs to be pleasant to shoot and as accurate as needed for the vintage matches, which are almost always shot at 100 - 200 yds.

Model 1889 Rifle:
Groove diameter 0.304" (all rifles and carbines prior to 1911)
Maximum bullet diameter 0.3075"
Specs = 190 grain @ 2050 fps @ 37,000 psi maximum

Model 1911 Rifle and M1896/11 Rifles:
Groove diameter 0.3087"
Maximum bullet diameter 0.3086"
Specs = 174 grain @ 2560 @ 45,500 psi maximum

The NRA guide says that the M1896/11, Rifle and Carbine M1911, and the Carbine Model 1931 can all be reloaded with 30 caliber (0.308") bullets for use only in these firearms designed for the M1911 cartridge. NOT FOR USE IN THE M1896 MODELS.

Loads given copied below:

150 grain Sierra OAL 2.96" 45.0 grains IMR3031 2822 fps 44020 psi

180 grain Hornady OAL 2.85" 45.0 grains IMR4064 2569 fps 44070 psi

200 grain Sierra OAL 3.05" 49.0 grains IMR4350 2461 fps 45230 psi

174 grain (Factory M1911 round) 2652 fps 37080 psi

Having never reloaded this cartridge, I can only copy the information for you. Knowing how the NRA made up loads in 1969, knowing the relatively weak Swiss actions, and knowing other cartridge equivalents, my opinion is that the NRA loads are pushing the envelope. The maximum Swiss pressures may well be at the 45500 psi level for the modern rifles, but the operating pressure was probably somewhat lower. Reducing these loads 10% would probably give a more sensible load. But as I say, I am only copying from the book.

Regardless, the load I worked for my 1911 Schmidt-Rubin was 42.0 grains of IMR4895, Winchester Large Rifle primers, Norma 7.5x55 brass, 168gr MatchKings seated out to 3.05" OAL. Not a real barn-burner in the velocity world, but it shoots quite comfortably in the old girl, and is easy on the expensive brass.

As to cast loads, 35_Whelen will likely be along here shortly - he has a great deal of experience with the Swiss guns and cast/reduced loads. I have 1k of gas checked bullets waiting on the shelf but haven't yet found time to load and test.

/Bryan

 

[Red October]

The shorter, darker one is a 1911 short rifle (K11). You can safely shoot GP11 (7.5x55) in it.
The longer one is an 1889, which was originally chambered for GP90 (7.5x53.5), possibly later rechambered for GP90/23 (7.5x54.5) and is likely NOT safe to shoot GP11.
I have been told that some 1889s were rechambered for GP11, but have never personally seen one. Other resources (Bolt Action Military Rifles of the World) indicate that no 1889s were ever chambered for GP11, due to the weaker action of these rifles.
Not sure I would take the chance. The 1911 is a great rifle, and you will have plenty of fun with it.
Check out http://www.swissrifles.com/sr/index.html when you get a chance. Lots of good information there about the Schmidt-Rubins.

 

[motorcycle_dan]

Thanks exactly what I was looking for. If you get tired of look'n at those cast boolits long enough send 'em my way. Look forward to hearing from Cast PB shooters

 

[lonniemike]

So some gunsmith said the long rifle checked out OK per a chamber cast? I'd say the 'smith doesn't know jack about Swiss. You did not help out your old rifle but she'll probably be alright.
.308 is the right dia for all 7.5 Swiss rifles including the 1889 model. The .304" dia some report is usually due to measuring the three grooved barrel from a bottom of a groove to the top of a land, instead measuring from the bottom of a groove to the corrosponding bottom of the opposite groove on a four grooved rifle barrel.
89's were not rechambered for GP-11 but by design could chamber and shoot GP-11, but only as a last ditch effort for national defense. It is highly reccommended not to shoot GP-11 or any similar or higher pressured ammo in pre 1911 types. 7.5X53.5, 7.5X54.5, and GP-11 can chamber in any 1911 type or earlier 7.5 Swiss rifle.
1911 weak action? I don't think so. The Swiss arsenal did rechamer some K-11's to 7.62Nato/308, along with a number of American companies that also rechambered the 96/11, 1911, and K-11 to 7.62Nato/308. Many 96/11s and 1911 long rifles were made to look like K-11s. GP-11 has an operating pressure of 46KCUP or about 50,000psi by piezo methods. The operating pressure is not somewhat lower than 46KCUP. The 11 types can operate at 308 pressures easily.
And the max operating pressures for the K-31 are higher still, even though GP-11 ammo shot in the K-31 still operates at about 46KCUP. A few decades ago one could buy a K-31 in 300WinMag and in other calibers also.
Both rear and front locking lugs! This I got to see! Only the 89 had rear lugs. none had both front and rear.
Slam, do as you will, but the 1911 will take full power GP-11 loads and a bit more(308 equivalent pressures). It is not unlike the Swede's making CG 63s in 7.62Nato/308 that were factory converted from their M96s in Sweden.
For 89 reloading use 30/40 start loads and work up carefully. If speeds approach the GP-11 rate, back off. A chrono is a real help.
Both IMR 4064 and Varget are popular powders for the Swiss rifles as are many other suitable powders.Best All