Should I be mad?

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

On the part of a lot of small gun store owners, I see a willingness pin their lack of good business sense on all sorts of things from Walmart to online transfers, when generally their failing business has more to do with how they treat their customers.

Bingo. It seems 9/10 gun dealers I've met are complete jerks who treat the customer like a moron.

 

[gun&knifecountry]

Sales Tax

Well I noticed you mention sales tax in your debate, that you don't have to pay sales tax on out of state purchases. I know the dealer is not required to collect sales tax but did you know you are required to pay use tax on your out of state purchases? I really thing it is unfair to calculate the sales tax in comparing prices we LGS's can't get around it but the out of state stores can. You should at least throw that out of the equation when comparing prices.

http://dor.mo.gov/faq/personal/consumeruse.php

On that I have noticed that our state's ( Kentucky ) revenue cabinet has been asking FFL's if they do transfers. They have been asking dealers who do transfers for the customers name, address and gun info with a value of the gun? I had a customer come in and told of a transfer he did on a Remington shotgun with another dealer. He asked for and got a receipt for the Remington rebate. Evidently during a sales tax audit of the dealer the revenue cabinet saw the receipt. The customer was contacted by them and had to pay the sales tax plus a penalty. Ky requires you to report and pay the use tax on all out of state purchases on your state income tax return.

I think you will see more of this coming as states are hurting for money. I when I was in Tulsa that Oklahoma was running commercials that you had to pay the use tax on internet purchases ( they used a Big screen TV as the example). Also I believe Washington state requires FFL's to collect sales tax on the value of guns transfered in.

 

[wow6599]

A purchaser is required to file a use tax return if the cumulative purchases subject to use tax exceed $2,000 in a calendar year. Use tax is computed on the purchase price of all goods once purchases exceed $2,000

Who said I spend over $2000 a year from out of state (online) purchases?

 

[gun&knifecountry]

My apologies. I'm sorry I guess that I inferred that. I apologize for that.

My iferrance came from you using the $1000 Colt and you stating that your guns were $600. I assumed that you were buying several guns a year since you were shopping ffl's for transfer. Again my apologies for this.

 

[12131]

I have never purchased a firearm on line. I like to" handle the merchandise" as it were. The lgs has to make a living, and almost all of them in my area are pretty close in price after you figure shipping, transfer, taxes, and a small profit, it just makes little dollars and cents. I guess I am lucky to live in this area.

Not sure why you're in this thread,then.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The usual shop I go to charges more. However, he has done me favors in a pinch or installed scopes for no cost. I wouldn't expect to get these favors from the most inexpensive places in town. A $25 fee is inexpensive compared to where I live ($75 to $100).

 

[grumpy66]

If I find something online, I go to my LGS and ask him to order it for me, hand him cash and everyone is happy.

He charges me transfer fees but that's it.

I also do a LOT of buisiness with him, he knows my money is good.

I walk in the door and he imediately hands me a 4473, if I fill it out, he starts smiling really big.

I walked out with two rifles today( he said his electric bill was due).

Keep your money local, you won't regret it.

 

[Bubbles]

Well I noticed you mention sales tax in your debate, that you don't have to pay sales tax on out of state purchases. I know the dealer is not required to collect sales tax...

FFL's in both CA and WA are required by the state to collect tax on the retail price of transferred firearms. WA is particularly bad because the dealer is also expected to collect the tax on any shipping and insurance charges as well.
California Info
Washington State Info

I expect that it's only a matter of time before other state legislatures wake up and figure out that they can force FFL's to collect and remit sales/use taxes on the value of transferred-in firearms.

 

[gym]

Hey the guys are right he has hours, just go and get your gun and tell him you would use him more if his behavior was better.

 

[Black Butte]

I would gladly pay $25 or $35 for a FFL to transfer a gun if they didn't whine about it.

So do it.

 

[Sgt.Murtaugh]

On top of that, any gun store owner who doesn't have his head planted firmly up his fourth point of contact will see such a transfer as an opportunity to upsell the customer on items with a higher profit margin like ammunition, targets, spare magazines, magazine carriers, slings, optic mounts, scopes, lasers, lights, holsters, eye and ear protection, and safety classes.

This is 100% correct. A gun dealer has nothing to lose by doing a transfer. Their margin on guns is much smaller (percentage-wise) than their margin on accessories. Having a guy come into your store for a transfer (especially if it's his first time into your store) is an opportunity to sell him accessories, ammo, or even another gun while he is in there filling out the paperwork. This happens all the time and the dealers who are friendly, knowledgeable, and have any kind of sales capabilities will capitalize on new gun transfers and will in-turn build a new relationship with a local shooter. It is NEVER a bad thing to have new buyers walk into your store. I would hazard a bet that sometimes a transfer fee is greater than their margin on say, a GLOCK. I know GLOCK has a small margin for the dealers so they always try and upsell with accessories.

Justin, you are correct in saying that the internet is the new way of doing things. I talk to dealers who say they dont even have a computer, much less a cell phone. It's the nature of the industry, but the ones who take the time to utilize sites like GunsAmerica, Gun Broker, etc. will be the ones who maximize their profits and stay in business. It's cutthroat and you have to play the game if you want to win.

That said, I do understand their beef with strictly online retailers because alot of them dropship straight to the customer from the distributor and never even touch the gun, but still make a profit on it. Let the distributor do its job and let the dealer do his. That's why we have distribution/supply chains.

 

[buck460XVR]

Doing transfers for most FFLs with a storefront is not about making money on the transfer, but hopefully to make some monies on the accessories that go with the firearm. It's also about building a relationship hopefully with a repeat customer. Doing transfers is to 'get you in'' the store. If you buy something else while you are there, they don't become annoyed. Pickin' up your gun and then driving another half an hour to Walmart to save $2 a box on ammo annoys them. If you wanna be a cheapskate, expect to be treated like one. Kinda like a girlfriend you never take anywhere, or do anything with, but expect her to do the horizontal bop with you everytime you drop by.

Those FFLs that work outta their home on the side, are doing just that....on the side. They have no overhead, but probably claim a business deduction. The money they make on a transfer is most likely pure profit and their ''fun'' money. That said, if they have a regular job, they are like most of us workin' folk......busy. Most will have call forwarding or a message machine and try to accommodate. But...... like most of us working folk, they have a life, a wife and kids that need attention too. $25 ain't gonna make them rich and they aren't gonna miss their kid's soccer game for it. Again...the price of cheap ain't always the quickest or easiest.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I talk to dealers who say they dont even have a computer, much less a cell phone.

This alone would cause me to not do business with someone anymore. It's 2011, the personal computer has been around for three decades now, and it's been in almost everyone's home for the last twenty years. It's not going anywhere anytime soon and it will only become more and more integrated in daily life as time goes on. Like it or not.

Unless someone's an 80 year old retiree, I simply take someone not knowing how to use a computer, or a cell phone, etc. to simply be an idiot. At this point in time it's like saying you don't know how to operate a toaster or drive a car.

Also I'm not referring to being a computer whiz or anything. I'm talking basics like being able to type up a letter in Word or Google something for information about it.

 

[Lex Luthier]

+1 to the Dark Knight. While the number of our friends without basic computer understanding and daily practical implementation is dwindling, this often calls for us to slow things down and wait for them. While this is compassionate, it is becoming impractical.

Imagine the carriage makers hanging on to their leather straps as more and more cars filled the road. That could happen to us someday. It's all in how gracefully we handle it.

 

[CraigC]

I work from home as an IT consultant and sit in front of this thing every single day, 365 days a year, weekends, holidays and birthdays. I also depend on my Blackberry. I HIGHLY envy anyone who is able to live without them. I certainly don't hold it against them.

 

[Sgt.Murtaugh]

I will also say that Gun Dealers are some of the most un-friendly, *********-ish people I have come across. Not all of them, obviously, but as an industry as a whole, I have met more un-friendly gun dealers than in any other business I can think of. I don't know what it is, but it's hard to find a really friendly, knowledgeable, genuinely caring gun dealer. On the other hand, most shooters (end users, customers) are some of the nicest people I have come across as a whole.

 

[CraigC]

I think you have a lot of knowledgeable (some, not all) and enthusiastic shooters who open gun shops and don't realize they have no people skills and lack the patience to develop them. Their shop becomes their private club where outsiders (non-regulars) are not welcome. There were a lot more gun shops where I lived in central Florida but I ran into many more of this type. There are far fewer shops in my area of Tennessee but 99% of them have been friendly and helpful. I'll take a friendly and easy to deal with countermonkey who doesn't know a S&W from an RG over a belligerent know-it-all any day of the week. Even if he really does know everything, which is rare.

 

[mgmorden]

If you don't like him then shop around a bit. I'm sure there are other guys who are offering.

That said, understand that an FFL means that you're in the business of selling and/or transferring firearms - it doesn't mean that you have to be working FULL TIME. A lot of the guys with the best transfer prices are doing it by appointment in their spare time. The guy I use is basically appointment only as well, which isn't an issue for me - I give him a call when I want to pickup and we work out a time that fits both of our schedules. I'm typically in no big hurry to snatch something right up - if I have to get it tomorrow instead of today due to scheduling then so be it.

That said, I have never had an attitude from my transfer guy that he was doing me a "favor" he's running a business - albeit a part-time one, and he's always courteous and professional.

Basically, you might need to accept that if you want a full fledged dealer with "walk-in" pickups at any time, you may need to accept slightly higher prices and complaints about all your purchases being online. If you can deal with scheduled pickups, you can enjoy better prices and no accusations (since transferring for internet sales basically IS their business).

 

[mgmorden]

I'll take a friendly and easy to deal with countermonkey who doesn't know a S&W from an RG over a belligerent know-it-all any day of the week. Even if he really does know everything, which is rare.

Amen to that. Don't know what it is but some people in the gun industry are just so stubborn as to be aggravating. One gunsmith that I USED TO use was just absolutely cranky. Everything you brought for him to work on was treated as a chore. It was as if regardless of the fact that you were a paying customer, the attitdue was "How DARE you have the audacity to bring something in for me to fix?".

One day I brought in an old Remington 11-48 shotgun that wasn't working right. Monetary value was minimal, but the gun belonged to my grandfather. I wanted it fixed - cost wasn't much of a problem. He kept insisting that "It would be better to just buy another gun - it will cost more to fix this than the gun is worth". No matter how many times I reminded him that I had a whole safe full of guns back at home - that I just wanted THIS gun fixed, it never sank in.

I eventually took the gun to another smith to have fixed and haven't bothered with that shop since. Too many local shops will sit there decrying Wal-mart and other shops as "driving them out of business" when the attitude of superiority likely is driving off a ton of customers as well.

 

[CraigC]

Unfortunately, our sport seems to draw more than its fair share of macho, he-man types and arrogant a-holes.

 

[rondog]

I use a retired gent that does just does transfers, AFAIK. I don't "think" he's in the buying/selling business anyway. He seems to do very well at it and stays quite busy. If you go by his place first and fill out the paperwork, then come back to pick up the gun when it arrives, it's $15. If you want to do it all in one trip, it's $20. Saves him time to not have to run your 4473 while you're sitting there.

 

[Sgt.Murtaugh]

yeah, I have found a guy I like to deal with who is friendly, but he lives about 25 mins drive from me. Not a bad drive, but considering I live in Dallas and there are probably 20 other FFL's between my house and his, it could be alot shorter. BUT he is personable and friendly so I make the longer because I know it will be a pleasant exchange.

 

[ccw_steve]

It's frustrating to me when people claim that online retailers are killing local shops by 'undercutting' prices. This is a basic fallacy of economics. :banghead:

More competition = lower prices = better for everybody.

Low costs online force small gun shops to cut the fat out of their business model. It isn't fun, but this is one of the main reasons a free market works so well (and yes, I understand we have a heavily regulated market, not a free market).

Come on people, do you want us to go backwards?

Also, if a gun shop DOES go out of business because it can't keep pace with online shops, then it DESERVES to go out of business for not offering enough value to the customer (be it a low price, good quality, etc).

 

[fallout mike]

I used to live in a small town with 1 gun shop. Between my father and I we probably purchased 25 guns from this guy. I was there on a weekly basis buying ammo and I always had a gun in layaway(bc i'm cheap and like to let go of a little money at a time.) I go in there one day and he was talking with his usual retired buddies and I ask him if he would order me some sort of c&r gun, I don't recall exactly. He says sure, $100 plus 20%. I say, really, you can't do better? There is a guy in ....... , 15 minutes away that does transfers for a flat $20. He says , well, I suggest you carry your self over there then, in a really smart tone of voice. I tell him, "after all the guns me and my family have bought from you, you are really talking to me like that? I tell you what, me, my family, my friends, or anybody I know will never set foot in this store again." He went out of business about a year later. You guys are right. This is how lots of gun shops are. I am fortunate to have a great local gun shop to go to now where you get treated like you should. And they have several hundred guns in stock all the time. And they give a lifetime warranty on all guns sold there, new or used.

 

[milefile]

Honestly if the guy is only $50 more than internet I'd just buy from him.

$50.00 more plus tax.