Sidesaddle AND Buttcuff? Anybody else do this?

[SapperLeader]

I have read a lot of posts about people that use a sidesaddle OR a buttcuff. Does anybody do both at the same time? I keep my sidesaddle stocked with 6 remington RR slugs, and the buttcuff with 6 shells of RR buckshot. I use the sidesaddle for slug select drills, and the buttcuff for extra ammo and topping off. The gun is a remington 870 with surfire light. All together, the gun weighs 10.2 pounds, or 9.2 with just the sidesaddle.
I ahve been using this method for over a year, but am now having second thoughts.
This shotgun is my serious shotgun, and does no other duties as I have a second general purpouse bonestock 870(except for the recoil pad). The extra ammo is probally not neccessary in the serious role, but would be nice in a community defense scenario. While I do like having extra ammo, the weight difference is an entire pound. Plus there is the issue of using the shotgun on the offside, though i could take the buttcuff in a matter of seconds. The weight has never bothered me before due to this being a hd and range gun only. The reason I am growing concerned about the weight now, is that I am taking my first formal shotgun training with Louis Awerbuck and his Tactical Shotgun I course. This course is being offered at quantico, September 5,6, and 7 and I am trying to prepare for the course as best I can.

So what is the forums thoughts. Should I keep with the same method of sidesaddle and buttcuff? Should I go to sidesaddle only with extra ammo on a on body carrier? If I do go to sidesaddle only, should it be a mixture of buck and slugs, or slugs only?

Thanks

 

[Denny Hansen]

If twelve rounds of 12 gauge has not solved a HD scenario, I doubt if another six will help. But if it works for you, and you feel comfortable with it, use it.

Contrary to the way I see shells in cuffs carried a lot, I would carry them brass down. If they are carried brass up, you must reach across the top and obscure your target (threat) while reloading. This is a bad thing. When the brass is down you can reach under and withdraw a shell while maintaining view of your target.

If I were to use buckshot as my load of choice, I would load the SideSaddle with the buck and the cuff for the slugs. Regardless, it's important to keep the two separate because they both have different functions.

Denny

 

[Dave Williams]

I would ditch the buttcuff unless you a)don't mind the extra weight, and b) can shoot from your offside shoulder effectively with it on. If you leave it on, your system of keeping buck in it sounds good.

Keep slugs only in the sidesaddle.

I hope you give us a thorough AAR of the class.

Dave Williams

 

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Does anybody do both at the same time?

I DID do both at the same time. My extra-cartridge equipment at one point consisted of a TacStar SideSaddle and an Uncle Mike's neoprene 5-shot buttcuff. As time went by, I quickly found out that the UM cuff would slide up towards my strong hand during shooting. I remedied this by purchasing a cuff from Eagle Industries.

So what is the forums thoughts. Should I keep with the same method of sidesaddle and buttcuff? Should I go to sidesaddle only with extra ammo on a on body carrier? If I do go to sidesaddle only, should it be a mixture of buck and slugs, or slugs only?

Shooting wrong-handed (left), for me wasn't all too comfortable with the buttcuff. Loading from the cuff was never a problem, but I found that shooting left handed to be a chore. I removed the cuff for that sole reason.

I like the idea of the sidesaddle as it places the extra cartridges VERY close to the loading port, but I didn't like how my shotgun balanced without the cuff.

Fast forward a month or two and my shotgun is sidesaddle-less and buttcuff-less. I couldn't be happier. This is the system for me:

1) shotgun loaded to capacity
2) extra ammunition carried on the body, preferebly in belt carriers.

The major drawback to this system is that it's not "grab and go", meaning that I need to grab two items. The shotgun and my utility belt. This is where the buttcuffs and sidesaddles shine.

If it weren't for the balance issue, I would be running a sidesaddle on my shotgun. When using the sidesaddle, I had the first four slots stoked with buck and the last two with slugs. When I was using BOTH the saddle and cuff, I had the entire saddle filled with buck and the cuff filled with slugs.

In all honesty, I can't even pretend to advise you on which system to use. They all have their merits. I think you'll find out what works best for you during the course of the class, under stress.

Jim

 

[tarrigoni]

How bout a sling loaded with shells?

Blackhawk has one that holds like, 50 shells or some ridiculous amount.

 

[Denny Hansen]

The slings with loops may look cool, but the truth of the matter is that they are very impractical. First they add a lot of weight to an already heavy system. Second, the weight will cause the sling to swing back and forth and cause a shooter to miss a shot he should have made. They may be OK if you stand stationary, but if you are involved in a deadly force situation common sense says you should be moving.

Denny

 

[Average Guy]

OK, you wanna talk max ammo carry? Check THIS out:

http://www.3gungear.com/3 Gun Shotgun.htm

(Thanks for the link, Denny!)

 

[mondocomputerman]

-Average Guy, that is some link! Never knew they made all those types of shell holders. Is that what you call "tactical?"

 

[Hemicuda]

I use a Remington 870 Marine Magnum for home defense... I kinda figure that the added dimensions of the butt cuff and/or the sidesaddle are just gonna "take up space" and anything that a full mag tube (factory extended) of 7 shots had BETTER be enough... why carry around all the extra weight, and make the gun clunky?

 

[buzz_knox]

I went with just a 4 round Sidesaddle. I figure I know how to reload and the 8 rounds it provides (4 in the mag and 4 on the saddle) should be sufficient for most social occasions. Besides, ammo will be available in most any room in the house I'll be utilizing the 870. If I had to go outdoors, my M4gery is going with me.

 

[MrMurphy]

My Benelli on has a 4-shot SideSaddle (only size available for the Nova) and it's loaded with buck, since my shotgun is primarily "close range". I have a spare belt with a pouch I found that holds in two pockets, 30+ buck for the swarming zombie army or L.A Riot situation, and in another pocket, five slugs at the moment (with room for more). Since the first thing I'd grab in a holy crap situation would be my Glock and Surefire, on the way to the closet for the long gun, the belt gives me something to holster the Glock to (Glock lives in a Fobus at home).

A 55-round bandolier from Eagle or Blackhawk would solve your extra ammo situation as well, but I already owned the belt and pouch. Total cost? $10 for the pouch, the belt was a present. Not bad!

The buttcuff and SideSaddle at the same time makes the gun too heavy in my opinion, and they get heavy held at the ready as it is since a lot of people don't work out enough. "I" get tired holding a shotgun up at the ready after a minute or two, and between shooting, rock climbing, swordfighting and general PT, I have better upper body strength than many (not in the huge muscles department but general strength and useable muscle) other than cops and people like that.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I just use a buttcuff, since that's what i load from.

I shoot bad enough right handed that i'm probably better off sticking my head that much farther out and shooting from the appropriate shoulder, anyway.

 

[sm]

Preface : I have not attended a formal training school; I have some folks that have share with me, and some of my idea may be antiquated.
---

- What does Mr. Awerbuck recommend? I'd call and ask instuctors what works, suggested teaching, what holds up in class.

- I would remember there will be a LOT of low ready and holding the gun, guns get heavy. LOTS of this coupled with shooting - wear on one, causing fatique , which causes one to not mount correctly, which leads to recoil ,leads to flinching. Domino effect.

-Therefore , how much ammo in addition to weight of gun can you comfortably handle, and shoot the gun and maintain good form?

[This is why I had folks do as I did , repetitions daily of shotgun,using correct techinque, I was doing a min. of 100 a day to keep stamina up for competitions, when things were really big time I increased to as much as 500 a day]

-Granted my "needs" did not allow a sidesadde, and many avail at that time were crude, did not hold up. The ones WE MADE were reliable, did not affect the reiliabilty of shotgun and held 5 rds. ( back then had a 3 or 5 rd "storebought choices" that err... sucked).

- Balance of shotgun will be affected, the butt -cuff balanced the side saddle...butt cuff I liked was the leather one - BIG problem is shooting weak side. With elastic butt cuff , it can be twisted to other side.
Brass down is quicker to load from - less motion of mov't ( not reaching over).

-For hunting , farm, home, leather butt cuff ok ...not gun school. IMO

-Personally I was used to a shell pouch, so I naturally had no problem using one. I was used to stacking shells [ different loadings for task -all we had were fixed choked shotgun bbls back then so], I cheated, I used a belt shotgun shell holder for slugs ( again brass down) , shellpouch for pellet loads .
I went one step further - diffferent color hulls, I used the Peters blue hulls for shot, Win or Fed Red for slugs. 12 ga .

-I used a leather sling. Plain Jane 1". I learned using the sling "tight" against weak forearm to steady is a very accurate way to shoot slugs...get the technique practiced and when you rack one is back tight quick with SG and repeat the hit.

- I have never owned or suggested a sling with shell loops. I have demonstrated the "pendulum effect" of one. I also find them slow and akward to load from.

- I agree with taking advil before and during to keep inflammatory pain down.

I cannot...due to anaphalactic shock cause by ASA ( aspirin), some years ago [ what a fun surprise that was] I cannot take any NSAIDS , which as you knows means aspirin, Ibruprophen ( Adivil) and other products. I toss this in so folks will ASK before sharing with another student. Keep some Tylenol in range bag for folks like me - please. Benadryl for bee stings and allergies to any vegetation is a good idea as well.

- This is going to sound dumb...but I am serious. Guns have sharp edges that never seem to appear / felt until heavy extended use. Besides protecting hands , gloves will hang up on these sharp rough edges.

So if the wifey, GF or So won't give you a pair of nylons...by a pair of the sock type nylons at the grocery store. Put on your hands and close your eyes...handle the gun...smooth what snags, include weak side as well. Handle the gun in the manner the various drill and positions will be used.

Sucks to get cut up, not a good time to have glove get snagged when the BG target pops up and you can't get a shot off.

I said it sounded dumb...it works...a marble could snag on a pair of nylons.

Well I guess now Denny is going to fuss at me to attend a "real class" ...share/ give Mr. Awerbuck a great laugh now.

Good luck, be safe, learn lots and report back.

 

[Denny Hansen]

sm-
Your experience and common sense have you heads and tails above some who have attended a formal school. (Of course, it couldn't hurt to go to one.)

Denny

 

[sm]

I'm humbled. thank you sir!

Mrs. Hansen, don't yell at me if Denny gets into your nylons..I DID mention he could "Buy " his own at the grocery store. I hope he takes the kids when he does this.

"mommie, guess what daddy bought?"

I am in REAL trouble if I ever make it out Denny's way....real trouble.
I have a felling CRSam is going to stand there and just watch ...can't expect help from Old Fuff either...boy did I goof up or what?

Sell tickets, and watch the resident dummy ( me) flub up and miss....

 

[fix]

I don't use either any more. If 7 rounds of 00 buckshot can't handle the threat, then you need a rifle!

 

[sm]

Fix

You are ahead of me.

For my personal HD use, I have a bone stock gun SG , I have 5 rds of slugs. That don't work, its either the New Balance tennis shoes or the sidearm I'm transitioning to.

Okay...I going New Balance the first chance, putting to them to use as I use the 5 rds...but you get the idea...

Around my apt , or similar I like the "carbine" handiness of no add ons, I can use weak side, and heaven forbid, I can run the gun if one or the other arm/ hand is out of commisson. One of the drills we did was holding a perp at bay while dialing a phone...then having to shoot one handed because the threat started again. [ hidden gun produced by perp]

Hence the reason I suggest a 20ga 1100 for petite ladies often...I was working with the ladies quite a bit at one time.

 

[HSMITH]

Shoot slugs from your off side shoulder from a barricade position.

Now that you have done that and the buttcuff is in the trash continue learning to use a shotgun effectively.

 

[SapperLeader]

Ok, thanks everybody, the buttcuff came off tonight. That pound of ammo just makes a huge difference on the weight of the gun. Im not quite ready to ditch the sidesaddle too, as this gun does have the possible mission of going outside the house work with very little notice and I want the option of slugs. If I was in a more rural environment I would consider slugs only. I am putting together a shotgun for travel, and that one will have no carriers that are going to snag on things. I am planning on emailing Mr. Awerbuck and asking his opinions on ammo carriers and slings. I just wanted to ask my questions to the forum, get the easy ones answered, and then email him at that point.

Dave Williams - there will definitly be a AAR of the class, it just might take a while, as Ill have to play catch up with school for the few days after the classs.

MrMurphy - the pouch your describing sounds interesting, do you have a picture of it, or a company name?

Thanks again everybody for the input and advice!