Sistema with Mag Problem. Update.

[Audie]

Thanks for all the help on this one. Seems my sistema is very very mag fickle.

Modern mags seem to bind the slide. Only the old type colts with the low profile lips seem to work. The one that came with the sistema has no number on the bottom of it and was giving me FTFs but was not binding.

A freind sent me a Sistema mag and shot 200 rounds with it with no failures at all. the mag's serial number is strangely close to my pistols...pistol is 779XX and the mag is 766XX. It has the same low profile lips.

I dressed the disconnector rail with 1500 grit paper and oil to get any burrs off it and it shot very smoothly. So the disconnector is not badly worn, probably normal wear. the barrel is about 1/2 shot out I would guess, but it still shoots better than I can.

I did notice my spent cases had a dent in the middle after being ejected...but no bulges or anything else abnormal.

At anyrate OnMilo...I think you are right, mags have to be tuned for sistema's..at least for my sistema.

thanks for all the help on this one. Time to hit the gun shows looking for the low lip profile mags.

 

[Three Man]

It's more than likely that your pistol was at the bottom end of the shipping container and your frame was somehow slightly deformed (crushed) from the weight.

Then yours was one that needed to be refurbished or re-arsenaled to get it to look presentable.

I have not experienced the problem you have with your sistema with any of the ones I or my friends own.

Make sure that your disconector is not in the mag well, sometimes it's not just the corner that hangs in the mag well.

Most of these sistemas were shipped in barrels with some oil that ate up the original grips.

 

[Audie]

It is definitely not the disconnector. I detail stripped it and have looked for wear on the disconnector...there is none. I also inserted a piece of bar stock metal and pressed it against the opening at the disconnector and it still is easy to push down. the well is fine. It is easy to put in any modern mag with the slide off the frame. So it is the slide that hangs up on the modern mags.

Have your pistols seen a gunsmith since import? I don't believe mine has...I see no problem with the mag well.

the two sistema mags I have work fine. Just no modern mag seems to work.

 

[Onmilo]

While you are looking for those Systema magazines I would still recommend you be on the look out for some WW2 Contract magazines made by Scovill.

I can almost guarantee these too will work just fine in your pistol.

They are identified by the letter S stamped on the bottom of the baseplate.
Scovill also made magazines for Colt and these are stamped C-S.
Hopefully the vendors haven't decided these are "true war collectables" and priced them out of the realm of actual use,,,,,HTH

 

[Three Man]

Enclosed is a link to STI's How a 1911 works. http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

The Disconector can not be checked in steady state, then be assumed that it's OK. The disconnector rocks and goes up and down when it's functioning in the pistol.

You have to work the trigger and hammer to see if it's getting into the Frame Mag well.

Chances are that you have the tip of the disconector fitting through a large hole through the frame which will give you slop (increase it's movement) with the disconector and increase slop in the trigger operation as well. It's ok for a military type setup but can cause safety problems if it's really bad, (does not sound like your's is too bad).

Yeh magazines that are on the smaller side of the spec may work but that is only a band aid, masking the true problem which if fixed will make your pistol reliable with any quality magazine.

Just trying to help you out so Please don't take this the wrong way.

 

[Audie]

I am going to a gunshow tomorrow and will look for some mags marked S as well as sistemas.

No , don't worry about my taking anything wrong...I am no expert and appreciate all comments. the diosconnector moves down fine by pushing on it with my thumb with an offending mag in place. And because these mags bind the slide in the first 1/4 inch of movement, it seems to me the trigger and hammer isn't in play. what do you think?

 

[Audie]

That is a very cool animation. thanks for the link. I will repeat my tests while working the hammer and trigger.

 

[Audie]

Three Man.

Just looked at the problem again.

1. I agree with you. I have always felt this is a problem with the disconnector hanging up on the disconnector rail with a tight mag in the well.

2. I can't see any difference in movement into the well of the disconnector while working the hammer. the trigger has nothing to do with it as it binds while pulling back the slide.

I pushed the disconnector down with my thmb and worked the trigger back to half cock and full cock...I felt no difference in the disconnector against my thumb. Also without a mag in the frame, I could not detect any movement of the disconnector into the well.

3. This probably proves NOTHING...with the slide on and every thing snugging up differently this could still be the problem.

I guess I have two options...take it to a gunsmith and make the weapon work with all mags. OR find mags that work and merrily continue shooting.

I tend to be leaning to the last one...this is not a competition pistol...I am treating it like a combat pistol...If it holds the silhoette at 25 feet or so...thats ok with me.

So here is my question:

What are the safety issues here? Are you concerned the disconnector may wear quickly. Keep in mind this pistol was made in 1953 for the Argentine Army...I am assuming by barrel wear it has been shot...probably a good deal...but then again, who knows what happened at rearsennalling and what was replaced.

 

[Onmilo]

I didn't watch the animation and still cannot picture how a disconnector can get into the magazine well unless it is incorrectly installed behind the front of the trigger bow and that would really tie the gun up.

I can envision a bent trigger bow being a possible problem if the bend forces the trigger bow to extend into the magazine well through the clearance slot in the receiver but I don't think this is probable since Systema triggers are old style, pre stamped, and very heavily constructed parts.
Even so, a bent trigger bow would cause other, more severe, issues besides a very difficult to remove magazine.

 

[Audie]

After I detail stripped the pistol, I examined everything very closely, there are no problems I can detect. And remember, without the slide on the mags go in and out fine. they only bind with the slide pulled back about 1/4 inch.

the binding seems to be with the lips of modern mags and the slide. How the disconnector comes into this I don't know, just that it did gouge the slide. Since that first time, I have dressed the slide with 1500 grit paper to remove burrs and am only using the mags that work. ran 250 rounds through it yesterday with no problems at all. (old mags of course).

trigger bow is fine.

 

[Audie]

I think the part of the disconnector that could get in the well, is near the middle of its square hole...but again, I see no sign of this when looking into the well, even when I manipulate the trigger, hammer, and disconnector top by hand.

At any rate, I am going to use old style sistema mags....don't fix it if it aint broke right...it is functioning fine with these older type mags.

Also, the gun passes every function test. If the disconnector was in wrong, it wouldn't work at all.
Let alone the way it is suppose to.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Audie,

My Sistema came with one original mag (mismatch #'s) and I bought a Mec-Gar to use as well. I have never experienced the problem you describe with either mag but I did have a problem where the slide would not lock after the last round. I replaced the spring and follower and the problem "went away"!

BTW, the info to fix the magazine came from 1911Tuner. Perhaps he could help shed some light on this for ya. Sure can't hurt.

The magazine you got with your pistol may have been aftermarket or maybe defective when made. I didn't have to modify the lips at all on either magazine. When I first got the Mec-Gar I was a littlt skeptical at first but now I see my worries were unfounded. I hope you find out what it is.

Just out of curiosity did you measure the dimensions of the magazine that you have problems with and compare it too the good one? And does this happen when its unloaded?



HTH

CI

 

[Audie]

Tuner did help with this, but no definitive answer. the mags were colt new factory mags...both bound it. The McCormick didn't but did cause some excess friction pulling it back. Metalforms would not even get into the well.

the one that came with it is junk. A freind sent me a numbered sistema...works flawlessly. I think I am just going to try to hunt down a few more sistema mags or modify some older type 4 GIs. Scovils are on my list to find to..thank Onmilo.

Btw, the gun is great...a real colt, tight as a drum, and a great shooter. Where else can you find a 1953 Colt in the condition of some of these argie retreads for under 500 bucks? I am just going to run it with older type mags and FMJ.


btw, it seems to be a function of the lips on the mag...they have to have the low profile early lips.

 

[Audie]

like this:

 

[Audie]

hmmmm....pic didn't go through...will try again. I don't know, weird forum, can't upload pic twice...it is posted over in still confused thread...only now I am not nearly as confused.

 

[Audie]

this is the pistol btw, it is a beaut, had no wear on the park when I got it...it was also in JLDs original packaging.

 

[DnPRK]

I thought all Sistemas came from the factory blued not parkerized.

 

[Jim K]

They did. The importer had them refurbished and Parkerized.

Jim

 

[Audie]

Mine was imported by JLD.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

I had a Sistema years ago that was a beautiful dark blue and due to it having some problems I panicked and sold it! Now I realize it was a mistake. The current one I have is blued but its a bit worn. All of the markings are crisp which makes me think that this is the original finish. It doesn't have any gritty feeling either. It was imported by Interarms.

Right before I bought this one I had another Sistema that was parked from JLD . The pistol had a gritty feel to the trigger and slide, while the barrel had almost no rifling. The finish prep had been non-existent; some of the rollmarks were buffed out in places and the parkerizing was done over what appeared to be rusted areas near the muzzle.

 

[Audie]

Proabably like everything else, some were good and some weren't. Mine is really a beautiful pistol. the finish is excellent...the slide appears to be the original black bluing and is quite different in color from the frame that was parked...no pitting anywere. no signs of rust. rifling is sharp but worn...I'd say it is half shot out. all numbers match.

 

[Audie]

Pic of the pistol stripped and of the rifling. It shoots well too, just with a sistema mag...not modern ones...I have decided to just find some extra sistema mags and leave it alone...and enjoy it, why fix was isn't broke...btw, the barrel is the original finish too, not parked. You must have gotten a bad one. This one was better than I thought it would be for the price..under 500...what was the serial number roughly of your JLD? I am wondering if the later ones were more worn. this one is 1953.

 

[Audie]

Irish.

I did recall reading somewhere that JLD had three grades of these for different prices. Grade one had good rifling, very good finish and all matching parts. Grade Two had replacement barrels (not matching), and Grade Three had wear and poor rifling. sounds like you may have gotten the latter.

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Audie,

The park job was quite nice IF, you didn't pay attention to the defaced markings and noticeable rust under the park in not one but three places. When I saw the pictures before buying I was unable to see the rust and the problems with the markings wasn't that evident. It may have been a "grade five" ! lol

The gritty feeling was more like a "crunch,crunch" like you would find in a cereal commercial! LOL

I'm currently trying to sell my Sistema w/extras to fund a project but thats another story(and forum).

Although the accuracy is decent if I keep it I may have a Wilson,Kart, or Ed Brown barrel installed and buy another slide so nice sights can be put on it. It would be cheaper to use the original slide but I prefer not to mess up the originality of it with permanent mods.