Six Things You Should Know Before Carrying a Gun

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Mainsail: No reasonably intelligent person needs to attend a class in order to effectively defend themselves,...

Do you really believe that "reasonable intelligence", sans training by a good instructor, is likely to somehow impart the basic skills necessary to react effectively to a sudden, violent criminal act by drawing and presenting a firearm and firing with combat accuracy, timely?

Of course, common sense says that 99.98% of the time no home invader is going to keep coming after taking a single blast from a shotgun- even if you miss,...

I was with you until you said "even if you miss".

Of course, that shotgun will likely not be with you at the service station pump or outside the big box store.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

Mainsail:

Kleanbore pretty much touched on what I wanted to say, but I did want to reiterate we're talking about carrying a firearm here, not home defense. In one's own home, by all means rely on "reasonable intelligence" if you feel that's adequate. When carrying out and about near my family, please seek proper training. Most would appreciate it if "even if you miss" wasn't acceptable while using your firearm in public.

 

[Elkins45]

A handful of books is "graduate level" and what I would consider the bare minimum for training takes up 90% of your time and effort? Being prepared doesn't take that much time or effort, and if someone isn't willing to put in the work, they probably shouldn't be carrying in the first place. There are some that spend way too much time preparing for things that are not likely to ever happen, but I don't think that's what's being advocated here.

I need to eat a certain diet to survive?

That list is closer to gecko45's holiday wish list than it is to normality.

I have a reliable draw from concealment and the ability to hit vital zone targets with 100% accuracy at reasonable handgun range. I practice situational awareness, know the legal restrictions and ramifications of deadly physical force (the KY term for shooting someone) and realize that a concealed weapon should make you LESS bold. I reject the notion that I need to give up white bread and listen to a bunch of guys in cargo pants, polo shirts and Oakley sunglasses bloviate in order to carry a gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Elkins45: I have a reliable draw from concealment and the ability to hit vital zone targets with 100% accuracy at reasonable handgun range.

What are your first actions when you see a threat? How quickly can you draw? How quickly can you hit, at the different distances? What do you do after firing?

I practice situational awareness, know the legal restrictions and ramifications of deadly physical force (the KY term for shooting someone) and realize that a concealed weapon should make you LESS bold.

Great!

I reject the notion that I need to give up white bread and listen to a bunch of guys in cargo pants, polo shirts and Oakley sunglasses bloviate in order to carry a gun.

Well, without generalizing about instructors in pejorative terms, one of the reasons that the name of this forum was expanded to include training was to emphasize the importance of the subject.

No, you don't need any training at all to carry a gun. Training comes in when you have to use the gun--in the gravest extreme.

Most of us who have availed ourselves of good defensive training have learned the difference between shooting at the range and defensive techniques. More importantly, we have had good instructors identity what we were not doing right, tell us how to improve, and told us whether we have in fact improved.

And tell us what and how to practice.

Elsewhere in the forum there is a thread containing my report on the ICE Combat Focus Shooting course. I had taken another good course before.

I have been firing handguns for something on the order of five decades, and I can tell you that I gained a lot from the CFS course.

By the way, what is taught today differs quite a bit from what was fought some decades ago.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

I need to eat a certain diet to survive?

That list is closer to gecko45's holiday wish list than it is to normality.

I have a reliable draw from concealment and the ability to hit vital zone targets with 100% accuracy at reasonable handgun range. I practice situational awareness, know the legal restrictions and ramifications of deadly physical force (the KY term for shooting someone) and realize that a concealed weapon should make you LESS bold. I reject the notion that I need to give up white bread and listen to a bunch of guys in cargo pants, polo shirts and Oakley sunglasses bloviate in order to carry a gun.

I made no mention of one's diet, and neither did you, until now. If you'd like to ignore your diet, physical fitness, training and education you are certainly entitled to do so. If you know what works for you, great. Continue doing that. Some people aren't familiar with these things, and that's why they choose to attend training or read information from guys that know what they're doing.

Reject whatever you like. Training is training. You didn't gain your legal knowledge or the ability to remove a handgun from its holster sitting in front of a television, did you? How about the ability to hit targets on a range with "100% accuracy". Most might notice I have a disdain for many of the "tactical" trainers out there. I think a lot of them are full of themselves, have no experience with what they preach and are in it to make money. More than a few of the big name guys are like that, and I say this from experience. I have received training from more instructors than I can count thanks to the Marine Corps, but now that I have to pay for that training, I'm very selective on who gets my money.

Shooting is a perishable skill, and neglecting to maintain and expand on your abilities is a mistake, in my informed, yet far from expert opinion.

 

[Fred Fuller]

What really sux about gunfights is that it's possible to do everything right and still wind up dead. It's pretty short sighted IMHO to begin carrying a gun without carefully and deliberately considering at least the major aspects of that decision.

Most of the time the statistics are in our favor - most of us will never run into a situation where using a firearm in self defense is necessary. But the liability and responsibility we assume when we go armed is always there. And one of the best lessons any of us can learn is the difference in how well we perform under even slight pressure, versus how well we think we will do in a bad situation. There is of course more than one way to learn that lesson, but good training is still one of the best.

We do the 'I don' need no steenkin' trainin'' argument every so often here. Frankly it grows wearisome after a few repetitions. No, we are not advocating that people need to be required to have professional defensive firearms training before being allowed to go armed in public. But one of our MISSIONS here in ST&T is to support, advocate, evaluate, discuss and criticize defensive firearms training as it exists in the nation today. Informing potential consumers of this training about their options is one of the reasons we are here.

And one of the options, sadly the option that most gun owners and concealed carriers choose, is NOT to take advantage of the various levels of training available to them. That is their right, of course. And that is not what any of us here would seek to change in any way other than through sharing information and offering encouragement. Anyone who has never worked with a professional defensive firearms trainer, who is saying that such training has nothing to offer them, can hardly be thought to be in a position to offer an objective opinion on the subject.

 

[Kleanbore]

For what it might be worth, Fred Fuller provided the main impetus for my having sought training in the first place.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Thanks, I think

FWIW as of a couple of months ago, I've been carrying a gun for forty years now. I've been over pretty much the same route as most folks follow. I grew up in a farm family where guns were as much tools as garden hoes. My dad ran a small country store and after a couple of burglaries had commenced carrying a handgun to and from work every day. I learned to shoot the way most boys who grew up in the 1950s and early 1960s did - at the hands of my dad, my grandfathers, my uncles and a small group of the 'old men' who took a hand in my raising.

I got a concealed carry permit at 21 and, like most folks, didn't know what I didn't know. Even though I learned a little more as the years went by, there was still a lot of terra incognita left for me. The only real option at the time I knew of for professional training was Gunsite, and though I wanted to go, circumstances conspired to keep me from making it for year after year.

As time wore on the training community changed. Itinerate trainers began bringing classes to available flat ranges all over the country, reducing the difficulty and expense of seeking good training, and one of those was former Gunsite instructor Louis Awerbuck. My first class with a professional trainer was Louis' basic shotgun class at Durham (NC) Pistol And Rifle Club, a couple of hours from where I was living at the time.

And it's been on from there... I'm not as much of a training junkie as some folks, but the experience has always been more than worth the trouble and expense for me. And even as a lifelong shooter I learned much ... not about shooting, as much as about fighting with a gun - and NOT fighting at all when possible, which is even more important.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Another point....

A point I meant to add was for any critical incident, don't assume it's fully over when a subject drops or goes down.

Scan for threats & reload your weapon. Holster it or keep it at the low ready if you feel all attacks or deadly force events have ended.

I've seen a few mall ninjas & outhouse lawyers suggest armed citizens unload the firearm & stand by for law enforcement.
Or to not do anything with the gun & wait for the PD.
I've seen news stories & heard first person accounts of citizens who were assaulted then had to deal with other bystanders or "back up". Some cops & homicide investigators call them; tailgunners.
My cousin was robbed by 2 thugs while a 3rd gang member looked on. A detective later said he was a victim of a gang crime & the thugs may have done it to prove their worth.

Rusty

 

[Mainsail]

Do you really believe that "reasonable intelligence", sans training by a good instructor, is likely to somehow impart the basic skills necessary to react effectively to a sudden, violent criminal act by drawing and presenting a firearm and firing with combat accuracy, timely?

Somehow, little old ladies with no "training" whatsoever prevail against home invaders. (Of course, I suppose you'll demand I prove that with unquestionable absolute proof)

I was with you....

 

[Fred Fuller]

Somehow, little old ladies with no "training" whatsoever prevail against home invaders.

Sure, that's true.

But then, I know of a guy who used to practice his B&E skills in order to rape women. It also happened he was a serving CAG (Delta Force) operator at the time.

Criminals are like Forrest Gump's box'o'cocolates - you never know what you'll get. So, how ready to play criminal roulette do you really need to be?

Stakes and odds, odds and stakes...

 

[Jim K]

With the exception of suggesting Ayoob's writings, this is the same old "stuff" about how to shoot a gun.

Believe me, if you ever kill or even wound someone, you have not solved a small problem, you have created a huge one; your real troubles and problems are just beginning. If anyone is stupid enough to think that he (or she) can kill someone anywhere in the U.S. and walk away whistling, he (or she) is too stupid to carry a gun. Even the killing of an intruder in one's own home might not be accepted as self defense without a long, harrowing period of questioning and police involvement.

So get real; sure shooting competence is good, but we are not in the Old West. If you blow some SOB away, the local sheriff will NOT pat you on the back and buy you a drink at the Long Branch.

Jim

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

With the exception of suggesting Ayoob's writings, this is the same old "stuff" about how to shoot a gun.

Believe me, if you ever kill or even wound someone, you have not solved a small problem, you have created a huge one; your real troubles and problems are just beginning. If anyone is stupid enough to think that he (or she) can kill someone anywhere in the U.S. and walk away whistling, he (or she) is too stupid to carry a gun. Even the killing of an intruder in one's own home might not be accepted as self defense without a long, harrowing period of questioning and police involvement.

So get real; sure shooting competence is good, but we are not in the Old West. If you blow some SOB away, the local sheriff will NOT pat you on the back and buy you a drink at the Long Branch.

Jim

If it's ever necessary to fire in self defense, I don't think I'd call that solving "a small problem", at least not if you were right in doing so. I'd also say your level of legal difficulty will greatly depend on your situation and location. Of course it's always preferable to avoid firing your weapon.

 

[Jeff22]

Everytime somebody makes a post suggesting that it's a good idea to get professional training or at least read some of the many good books on the subject in a program of self study, some people get all upset about it.

I've never understood that. But then, I'm one of those people who LIKE to read those books, and I've been going to a class or two a year since 1982 . . .

I didn't see anything in that list that was too far off base, and nothing that was particularly original, either. So it was okay.

There was one suggestion I particularly agree with:

3.Know How to Draw Your Gun Efficiently From Concealment While under Stress •This means not using a cheap floppy nylon holster.

If you're going to carry concealed in public, know the laws, buy a quality firearm, practice once in a while, and buy a decent quality belt/holster/ammunition carrier combination. Something of quality will last forever. I still frequently use a couple of concealment holsters that I bought at the beginning of my LE career in 1981.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post #36, Markus Wynn, convicts....

Id like to know more about the "CAG" operator in post #36. It's sounds far fetched but maybe the USACIDC(Criminal Investigations Div Command) got involved.

The premise was also the plot of a novel by Markus Wynn(check spelling). Wynn or Wynne is a special ops veteran & former FAA Sky Marshal.

I'd add that it's common for many new corrections officers & police cadets to see CCTV video or photos of convicts training in exercise yards. They practice disarms, choke holds, etc.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Fred Fuller: Criminals are like Forrest Gump's box'o'cocolates - you never know what you'll get.

One of the things I recently picked up (in a training class, by the way) is that top criminologists emphasize the difficulties and the "unknowables" involved in predicting the nuances of criminal behavior.

What may work in terms of de-escalation in one situation may just inflame the sensibilities of the perp in another.

I intend to follow up and do some reading.

So, how ready to play criminal roulette do you really need to be?

VERY ready!

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I am all for Study and Training with Firearms. I read, study , practice and follow Cooper' s Color code of situation awareness. YMMV. If you don't want any Training that is your call.

 

[green5594]

Exactly!

You’re not alone by any means. No reasonably intelligent person needs to attend a class in order to effectively defend themselves, and fewer need some of the “tactical” classes I see mentioned so often.

Apparently I’m on borrowed time because….

• I haven’t had tactical training on how to effectively defend myself against multiple perpetrators.
• My shotgun only holds six shells and someone heard of a guy who knew someone who had read something about seven perpetrators invading a home somewhere.
• My diet includes too many carbs.
• My reload time is two seconds- 1½ seconds too long to survive an armed encounter.

Of course, common sense says that 99.98% of the time no home invader is going to keep coming after taking a single blast from a shotgun- even if you miss, or that a mugger will feel his life is so disposable it’s worth risking it to try to take your OC handgun, or that historically a self-defender will never need to reload….

That’s not to say you don’t need to be prepared, but temper your preparedness with some real reality- not the internet or Hollywood kind.

Really?

 

[green5594]

I need to eat a certain diet to survive?

That list is closer to gecko45's holiday wish list than it is to normality.

I have a reliable draw from concealment and the ability to hit vital zone targets with 100% accuracy at reasonable handgun range. I practice situational awareness, know the legal restrictions and ramifications of deadly physical force (the KY term for shooting someone) and realize that a concealed weapon should make you LESS bold. I reject the notion that I need to give up white bread and listen to a bunch of guys in cargo pants, polo shirts and Oakley sunglasses bloviate in order to carry a gun.

Oh come on! Diet, exercise, and fitness are ideals to strive for. I'd think we would want to maximize the time our loved ones have us around...

 

[Elkins45]

I don't disagree, but the article implies this is a MUST to carry a gun.

Out of shape (or just regular shape) people have the same right to self defense as the enviably fit.

Oh, and in response to a previous reply: I never implied that training isn't a good idea, only that it need not be to the degree mandated by the list. I think it's a relatively silly list if it wastes words to specify a diet and says I need combat medicine training. Wouldn't non-gun carriers need it just as much?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

In general, I hate "(X number) of things you need to know about (subject)" lists.

Especially internet postings of such.

They usually end up being based on some subject bias or, even worse, are one of the endless, uncredited and unsubstantitated reposts by bloggers.

 

[SnowBlaZeR2]

I don't disagree, but the article implies this is a MUST to carry a gun.

Out of shape (or just regular shape) people have the same right to self defense as the enviably fit.

Oh, and in response to a previous reply: I never implied that training isn't a good idea, only that it need not be to the degree mandated by the list. I think it's a relatively silly list if it wastes words to specify a diet and says I need combat medicine training. Wouldn't non-gun carriers need it just as much?

Fitness matters!

Know some Basic Tactical Medicine

Do you disagree with these two statements? Nowhere does it say you "MUST" do these things. They are suggestions which you are free to ignore. If it stated you "MUST" do these things, you'd still be free to ignore it.

We aren't talking about someone's right to self defense, either. We are talking about preparing yourself for self defense to the best of your abilities. I don't know anyone that would seriously take issue with that.

The main issue I had with your original post was this statement:

being able to shoot is a plus

Being able to shoot should be a priority if you plan to carry a firearm in public. Any training should be a priority if you plan to carry a firearm in public.

 

[green5594]

Why expend effort justifying not being squared away when you can expend that same effort towards being squared away?

 

[Sam1911]

Why bother to justify anything? To anyone? Do what you feel you need to do, and use the advice of others as a prompt to think for yourself.

And yes, internet lists of "top XZY you should ABC" are pretty silly. Chances are, if the sentiment can be succinctly stated in a list (or written on a bumper sticker) it is lacking depth and nuance and so is pretty poor as a guiding influence.

 

[Elkins45]

The main issue I had with your original post was this statement:

being able to shoot is a plus

Being able to shoot should be a priority if you plan to carry a firearm in public. Any training should be a priority if you plan to carry a firearm in public.

I should have added a smiley---that was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.