So....What To do About Iran?

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Yeah...

I think it will boil down to a strike against their infrastructure with either lower yield nukes or something a little more conventional but stouter. Maybe frying a city's power plant / water supply with limited civilian losses to get the message across.

That might not be enough to effect either a reasonable response or regime change unfortunately.

The biggest problem is a large response that doesn't make the oil glow in the dark - which would have a devasating effect on the world (and certainly our)
economy.

I think a strike with neutron weapons (ie one block blast radiance but 10 mile human casualty toll) will be needed, after a bunker busting effort with nukes/conventional weapons followed up with chemical weapons against survivors.

We just have to keep in mind they'd likely do it to us first if given the chance.
 
A top cleric just referenced using them in a first strike against Israel.

It's one thing for a religious 'leader' to spout fire and brimstone from his prayer mat. It's entirely another to target a site several hundred (thousand?) miles away with a nuclear missle without hitting your allies in the same region, especially without satellite guidance or intelligence. Israel is not a wide country east/west, and I'm sure Syria, Palestine, Jordan, and Egypt would not look kindly on nuclear lawn darts launched blindfolded from Iran.

Say Israel was hit with Iran's existing tech. The strike wouldn't be precision, thus allowing retaliation by Israel, and everyone else I can think of. I think even Russia would drop Iran like a hot potato if they launched. It would unify all the UN members, and swift action would follow from a group of allies that would rival the first Gulf War.

For Iran to perform a precision strike, it would take intel that likely only we, the Chinese, or the Russians have re: targeting. What could Russia or China gain from providing intel for such a strike? Zero sum game.

Someone will come along later and school me on where I'm wrong. Either that, or the NSA will come calling, wondering how I'm such a good guesser. :eek:

It's guessing, really!

I'm also confused about why if Iran wants to go after a country persecuting Muslims that they don't go knocking on the Russian door through Chechnya. Russia is somewhat friendlier to predominantly Muslim countries than the US out of necessity, IMO. They're in Russia's back yard and they're good customers. But 200,000+ dead Chechen Muslims doesn't cause Iran to bat an eye?

jmm
 
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grimjaw said:
A top cleric just referenced using them in a first strike against Israel.

It's one thing for a religious 'leader' to spout fire and brimstone from his prayer mat....


Iran is ruled by it's religious leaders. Their President (who is a nut) is not in full control, thats not how their country is set up. They have a cleric who is actually in control.

I.G.B.
 
the Wall Street Journal:
The Radioactive Republic of Iran

By MICHAEL RUBIN
January 16, 2006

On Friday, George Bush and German Chancellor Angela Merkel stood together in the White House to condemn Iran. "Iran, armed with a nuclear weapon, poses a grave threat to the security of the world," Mr. Bush said. "We will not be intimidated," Ms. Merkel added. The press conference marks a turning point in a decade-long saga. Europe's engagement with Iran has failed. While Iranian diplomats met with their British, French and German counterparts in Vienna and Geneva, Iranian technicians toiled to ready Iran's uranium enrichment capability. European officials discussed a China model for Iran, in which they could use trade to catalyze political liberalization. Between 2000 and 2005, EU trade with the Islamic Republic almost tripled. But rather than moderate, Iranian authorities used the hard currency to enhance their military. They built secret nuclear facilities and blocked inspections. They failed to explain why there were traces of weapons-grade uranium on Iranian centrifuges, and refused to detail what assistance Tehran received from Pakistani nuclear scientist A.Q. Khan. On Sept. 24, 2005, the International Atomic Energy Agency declared Iran to be in non-compliance with the Non-Proliferation Treaty's Safeguards Agreement.

Still, diplomats and doves hold out hope. After a Jan. 12 phone conversation with Ali Larijani, Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Kofi Annan assured reporters that Tehran was interested in "serious and constructive negotiations." As Mr. Bush met Ms. Merkel, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw told the BBC that military action was "not on the agenda" and insisted that the crisis "can only be resolved by peaceful means." But while Mr. Bush and his European allies may agree to refer Iran to the U.N. Security Council, traditional diplomacy will not work for a simple reason: Iran's quest for nuclear weapons has nothing to do with the U.S. or Europe. The crisis with Tehran is ideological, not political.

* * *
Destruction of Israel is a pillar of the Islamic Republic's ideology. Soon after leading the Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini declared, "Every Muslim has a duty to prepare himself for battle against Israel." President Ahmadinejad's recent Holocaust-denial and call for Israel to be "wiped off the map," may have shocked Europe, but his statements mark only a change in rhetorical style, not ideological substance. When it comes to Israel, there is no difference between hard-liners and reformers. While Mr. Annan honored Mohammad Khatami for his Dialogue of Civilizations, the reformist president's instructions to the Iranian people were less high-minded. "We should mobilize the whole Islamic World for a sharp confrontation with the Zionist regime," he told Iranian TV on Oct. 24, 2000. "If we abide by the Qur'an, all of us should mobilize to kill." In a Dec. 14, 2001 sermon, Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, perhaps the second most powerful man in Iran and one often described as a pragmatist by Western officials and journalists alike, declared, "The use of even one nuclear bomb inside Israel will destroy everything… It is not irrational to contemplate such an eventuality." During a Sept. 22, 2003 military parade, authorities displayed a Shihab-3 missile draped with a banner reading, "Israel must be uprooted and erased from history."

The ideological venom of their leaders carries little weight among the people. While the Iran-Iraq War killed hundreds of thousands, Iran and Israel have never exchanged a single shot. Many Iranians express pride that Israeli president Moshe Katsav was born in Iran. Indeed, the real ire of ordinary Iranians is expressed toward their government, not the outside world. In a 2002 labor protest, workers demanding back pay marched through Tehran, chanting, "Forget about Palestine and think about us."

Iran's youth want no more to live under theocracy than do Americans or Europeans. Iran Institute for Democracy telephone polls sampling opinion in every Tehran neighborhood suggest that 80% of the population have lost faith in the Islamic Republic. The Iranian people have little say in their leadership. The Supreme Leader wields autocratic power and reigns for life. The Guardian Council selects who can run for office. Before the 2005 elections, this clerical council disqualified more than 1,000 candidates, allowing the public to choose from only eight, all of whom endorsed theocracy and opposed far-reaching reform. Ordinary Iranians ignore the sham: While the Iranian government claims 50% voter turnout, Iranian pilgrims in Iraq say it was less than 20%. Contrast that with Iraq, where 70% of the population braves bombs and bullets to vote.

The Iranian religious leadership recognizes that demography is against them. Reform is a slippery slope, democracy a theocrat's hemlock. For the Ayatollahs, there can be no Orange, Rose, or Cedar Revolutions. Popular will is irrelevant. Legitimacy comes not from the people, but from God as channeled through a cabal of religious leaders. While Western analysts divide Iran's politicians into hard-liners and reformists, the difference is one of style, not belief. Take Mr. Khatami: Viewed by diplomats as a reformer, he nevertheless demonstrated disdain for popular sovereignty. "Knowledge of God's commandment must be the foundation of … life," he wrote in the state-run daily Kayhan. "People are not able to comprehend God's will through the explanations contained in the Quran and Sunna. Acquiring such comprehension requires several years of studies and much effort." Democracy is fine, but only clerics should be able to participate fully. Khomeini's successor and Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called liberal democracy "the source of all human torment."

Such statements ring hollow among the Iranian people. This year marks the 100th anniversary of Iran's constitutional revolution. Many people wonder why they no longer have today rights they had a century ago. Since the 1999 student protests, they have taken to the streets with increasing frequency to demand real reform. Iranians are losing their fear of the Islamic authorities. State control is eroding. Televised confessions once broke dissidents, now they build them. A stint in Tehran's notorious Evin Prison has become a badge of honor. Last summer, dissident author Akbar Ganji shook the Islamic Republic with a two-month hunger strike that captivated his countrymen. "I have become the symbol of justice in the face of tyranny," he wrote from prison, "my emaciated body exposing the contradictions of a government which has reversed justice and tyranny."

The ideological guardians can suppress wildfires of dissent, but Iran remains a tinderbox. Demography pours fuel on the fire. The leadership is following a different China model: Only with a nuclear deterrent can the ayatollahs launch the Cultural Revolution that will ensure their survival without fear of outside interference. The Revolutionary Guards are preparing for not one, but dozens of Tiananmen Squares.

As they cleanse their home front, the theocrats may use their nuclear capability to act upon their ideological imperative to destroy Israel. The West once ignored Saddam Hussein's threats against Kuwait. But dictators often mean what they say. Even if Iran does not use its bomb, a nuclear deterrent will enable it to lash out conventionally without fear of consequence.

Diplomacy can only work when both sides are sincere. Like an abused spouse, Western policy makers blame themselves rather than understand the fault is not theirs. There is no magic formula waiting to be discovered. To Tehran, the West is naïve. More diplomacy will only give the Islamic Republic time to achieve its nuclear goal. The only solutions that can rectify the problem are those that deny the Islamic Republic its nuclear arsenal or those that enable Iranians to cast aside theocracy and its aggressive ideology and instead embrace freedom.

Mr. Rubin, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is co-author, with Patrick Clawson, of "Eternal Iran: Continuity and Chaos" (Palgrave, 2005).

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113736575780147145.html

Below, originally posted on TLF:

I spent 7 years in Iran working for their miltary, survived the revolution, and was married to an Iranian for 16 years. There's no way of knowing what they're thinking. I work with, and know many Iraninans here in Abu Dhabi. They all hate their government and are waiting for the inevitable change to come. Keep in mind, that 75% of the population is under 25 years old and they are fed up with the Ayatollahs, they see the world on the internet and satellite TV passing them by, and they are frustrated by this. This demographic time bomb worries the govenment and they know that time is not on their side. Most Iranians I know are very nice, (there are around a half million here in a total population of about 3 and a half million). When in Iran, they just try to live their lives as best they can and always find ways to do what they want even under the eyes as the gov't.

What this new president has been spouting has been for domestic political comsumption, leaders in this part of the world all have big mouths.

I say let Europe handle this, it's in their backyard and they've been kissing a** for years. This a big wake up call from them, and they better get serious about it.
 
One Nuke + One Palestinian + One Truck = No Jerusalem.

Lone_Gunman, agreed. But that's still a zero sum game. If Iran claimed responsibility for the strike, the gloves are off and they'll be neutered. If Palestine claimed responsibility they too would be annihilated, if not by Israel, then by us. Does anyone believe that Palestine is developing nuclear capability without help?

This can of nuclear worms was opened in WW2, guys. What are we going to do, take over every country in the Middle East with crazy preachers and patrol their borders? We can't even police our border, and we've got crazy preachers with their own TV networks!

I don't mean to say that an attack against Iran isn't justified if they are trying to develop WMD's. I think it does damage to the confidence the American people have in our elected leaders if we cannot prove it after the fact. I for one do not want to fund another 'nation-building' exercise, no-fly zone, or embargo. I have a nephew that wants to be something when he grows up, and it isn't drafted.

jmm
 
Lone_Gunman said:
I don't think we can do anything now that involves land troops, considering we have them tied up with Bush's folly in Iraq.

I predict a draft within months.
 
antsi said:
Pakistan and India aren't run by whack jobs who think the US is Satan.

Pakistan is not our friend. We aren't allowed to go in there and look for bin Laden. It's an uneasy peace, partly because they have nukes. We sent a cruise missile in there recently, trying to take out one of the al Quaida leaders. Pakistan protested. I thought it was pretty gutsy. Do it now and apologize later.
 
Reading this thread makes it sound like preemptive war has become pretty popular. Of course, all that will change when it becomes George Bush's plan.
 
I think it will boil down to a strike against their infrastructure with either lower yield nukes or something a little more conventional but stouter. Maybe frying a city's power plant / water supply with limited civilian losses to get the message across.

That might not be enough to effect either a reasonable response or regime change unfortunately.

Nope, but it would be enough to strengthen the resolve of the leaders to do everything possible to retaliate against the U.S., and it would be enough to turn a population that is not now anti-U.S. against us.

Think about this for a minute. How did we react when we were attacked by Al Qaeda? Did they "get the message across?" Did they make us cower in fear and change our foreign policy? Hell no. It's basic human nature to pull together against an attacker, regardless of who is right or wrong, and we're talking about human beings in Iran, not monkeys.
 
UN unification

I, too, think that if Iran launched a nuke at Isreal, the UN would be unified. My main concern is just which side they would be on. If history is any indicator, they will side with Iran and against Isreal and US. As far as I'm concerned....Our only real ally is Isreal, and sometimes they don't act like it!

Here's one pre-emptive theory. What if we pulled mostly out of Iraq and moved into Iran to take out any nuclear threat and "encourage" a regime change there too. Maybe, just maybe all the "insurgents" would follow us to Iran leaving a moderately peaceful Iraq. My main reason not to go this route is that I think there would be a civil war between the Sunnis and the Shi'ites, but most of the Sudanese and Iranian fighters will follow us to where the fight is.

It's just one possible course of action. Here's another, more likely, theory. Isreal has a small bluewater force of ballistic missle capable submarines. These subs could launch a strike against Iran from just about anywhere in the Indian Ocean. No need to penetrate any other country's airspace and therefore take the chance of alerting Iran before the strike occurs. Could this be the strike Netanyahu has eluded to if he is elected next month (or is it in March).
 
Here's one pre-emptive theory. What if we pulled mostly out of Iraq and moved into Iran to take out any nuclear threat and "encourage" a regime change there too. Maybe, just maybe all the "insurgents" would follow us to Iran leaving a moderately peaceful Iraq. My main reason not to go this route is that I think there would be a civil war between the Sunnis and the Shi'ites, but most of the Sudanese and Iranian fighters will follow us to where the fight is.

There's a plan. According to your logic, if we pulled out of Iraq we would leave a mostly-peaceful Iraq.

Good lord. After reading some of the posts on this thread, I think it's time to start buying as much stock in oil companies as possible because I see their profits skyrocketing in the near future.
 
RealGun said:
Pakistan is not our friend.

I didn't say "Pakistan is a strong, reliable ally of the U.S." I just said Pakistan is not run by whack-jobs who think the U.S. is Satan.

People seem impervious to the basic fact, this conflict is not like the US/USSR cold war, where both sides calculate their long term risks and interests before acting. In that conflict, even our enemy could be relied upon to behave in fairly predictable ways according to a semi-rational accounting of their own interests.

The current conflict is different.

grimjaw said:
But that's still a zero sum game. If Iran claimed responsibility for the strike, the gloves are off and they'll be neutered. If Palestine claimed responsibility they too would be annihilated, if not by Israel, then by us.

Grimjaw you are assuming an enemy who thinks through their actions and consequences in more or less the same way we do (albeit with different motivations). I don't think that's a safe assumption.

It's kind of like saying "that crazy guy on the water tower with the rifle won't shoot anyone, because he knows he'll be caught and prosecuted." Not a safe assumption, because he's not thinking the same way we do.

I'm not saying the Islamofacsists are clinically insane, but they sure don't think the same way we do and I don't think you can count on them to weigh actions and consequences in the logical, predictable way you are proposing.
 
Lupinus said:
We simply don't have the manpower to do an all out invasion. Maybe if we pulled all of our troops from various countries they aren't needed but that is a stretch. Our best bet is to use covert operations. A good bit of Iran is young, and while maybe not totally pro west aren't anti west either, most want to westernize and modernize a bit. So my idea would be covert ops, take out best teams give them the best rifles and equipment we have plenty of ammo, a target list, and tell them to have some target practice. Nukes like guns themselves aren't a problem, it is the people with their fingers on the trigger that can prove to be a problem. Remove the guys from power that would love to see us and Israel gone and the problem is dramatically reduced.

Option B is the option reserved for if option A doesn't have time to do anything. In short blow them into the stone age. Massive air strike against their air defense system and quick response units with cruise missiles and stealth. Follow that up with a second wave massive air strike against their command and control, nuclear program, weapons program, etc. I do NOT advocate the use of nukes. If anything very small tactical nukes for targets which conventional weapons wont be able to take out, such as some bunkers. But only as a last resort against the most important targets that absolutely need to be taken out that conventional weapons wont be able to do. I understand regime change can't be effective with air power alone. But it can be effective for destroying infrastructure and weapons.

And then they have a whole lot of martyrs, lots of footage of dead children, and recruiting for entire armies of terrorists will SKYROCKET. That'd be fighting a fire by spraying it with gasoline!

And if we EVER used a nuke of any kind, seriously, the rest of the world would look at us as if we had suddenly adopted the swastika and one-hand-high salute. We'd be finished. Period.
 
Moondoggie said:
Smaller nukes could not only knock out their facilities, but also make them unusable for a few thousand years. Since they are supposedly secret facilities I would think that they are at least somewhat isolated. Civilian casualties might be greatly reduced because of that.

And send a Chernobyl x10 fallout plume over most of Europe, depending on winds. You think allies would remain allies if their people started dying of radiation poisoning and their children started being born with horrible defects?

Even the official studies on a bunker-buster nuke allowed for "a million" civilian casualties downwind.

A MILLION?!
 
RealGun said:
I predict a draft within months.

With nudge-nudge-wink-wink easy-outs for the children of the rich and powerful, of course.

You won't see any of the precious babies of congresspeople of either party, or of the "captains of industry" being taken away from their MBA/law/med school coddling to be put in fatigues and tossed out there, for sure.

There was another system that existed for a long time where the poor fought the wars and the lords, who started the wars they fought in, lived in decadent castles. It was called feudalism.
 
Manedwolf said:
With nudge-nudge-wink-wink easy-outs for the children of the rich and powerful, of course.

You won't see any of the precious babies of congresspeople of either party, or of the "captains of industry" being taken away from their MBA/law/med school coddling to be put in fatigues and tossed out there, for sure.

There was another system that existed for a long time where the poor fought the wars and the lords, who started the wars they fought in, lived in decadent castles. It was called feudalism.

The thread might quickly become about the draft, but I will say that allowing those doing [well] in school to have a pass would be a masterful piece of social engineering. Postgraduate students should be left alone except for critical skills. What the rest need is some way to get their act together. The military is a tried and true method of providing that. It also provides weapons training and that many fewer anti-gun people.
 
I think Real Gun was being facetious with his prediction of a draft.

Neither party will ever ask for a draft, as they know it would be political suicide. Power is coveted above all things, even national security. Bush would love to wage war throughout the Middle East, but he wants to maintain power here more than even that.

I don't know how we will deal with Iran, but it will not be through the use of conscripts.
 
Grimjaw you are assuming an enemy who thinks through their actions and consequences in more or less the same way we do (albeit with different motivations).

I don't assume that Palestine or Iran think that way. I'm saying that if they attacked Israel with weapons on the order of a nuke, they would be attacked I don't think Israel would stop after six days this time, either.

Iran and Israel have never attacked each other. Iran's last major war was with Iraq, even though they'd been calling for the annihilation of Iraq for years before that.

jmm
 
Lone_Gunman said:
I think Real Gun was being facetious with his prediction of a draft.

Neither party will ever ask for a draft, as they know it would be political suicide. Power is coveted above all things, even national security. Bush would love to wage war throughout the Middle East, but he wants to maintain power here more than even that.

I don't know how we will deal with Iran, but it will not be through the use of conscripts.

I was serious, believing that no option would be off the table for lack of manpower.
 
We're under-manned now. I don't see how we could possibly fight another ground war with our present troop strength.
Biker
 
i'm telling you guys, lack of military manpower and out-of-control immigration are two problems that solve themselves. tab A -----> slot B
 
I was serious, believing that no option would be off the table for lack of manpower.

Really. I don't see it happening for the reasons I enumerated above.

Before we start a draft, I believe we will out-source our military to foreign countries (like we do all other labor) or create an amnesty program for Mexicans and Central Americans whereby they can come here, sign up in the military for 4 years, and get fast-tracked to American citizenship.

No way are we going to ask Americans to lay down their Nintendos and go to war. It is better to keep Americans here in their jobs as consumers, so the economy will stay strong, and allow us to continue funding our wars.
 
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