malix
Member
+1 on the PX4. I have one in 9mm and the recoil is very mild.
Softest shooting semi-auto in a Significant Caliber?
- Thread starter Cards81fan
- Start date
- Status
sokygunner
Member
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2009
- Messages
- 89
Would a 3" 1911 (say, a Kimber Ultra Carry II) have less perceived recoil than an XD40 service?
I know I know... I just need to shoot one, but I am compelled to ask anyway
Uh...if you ever want to ring your bell real good, just shoot a 3" 1911 in .45acp...an XD40 service model will feel like a .22 compared to one of those compact/subcompact .45's. The .22 thing might be a bit of an exageration but you probably get the point.
I know I know... I just need to shoot one, but I am compelled to ask anyway
Uh...if you ever want to ring your bell real good, just shoot a 3" 1911 in .45acp...an XD40 service model will feel like a .22 compared to one of those compact/subcompact .45's. The .22 thing might be a bit of an exageration but you probably get the point.
I haven't fired one myself, but according to friends that have them and reviews I've read, the HK P2000, P30 and HK45 all have a recoil buffer that's supposed to absorb 20-30% of the felt recoil. One review I read of the P30 was that the pistol had very little felt recoil. My friend that has a P30 and an HK45 says the same.
Ghost Walker
Member
I used to have a 1911 pistol with a 3" barrel. I was young and strong; and I didn't mind the way that pistol beat up my gun hand. (Today would be a different story, though!)
This being said (and as you've mentioned) 40 caliber recoils, 'sharper' and is, thus, perceived as recoiling, 'harder' than the softer, 'pushing' 45 acp. This brings you down to the pistol's balance and overall weight; the lighter the gun is (especially towards the muzzle) the more it's going to kick.
I've fired both 9mm, 40, and 45 acp pistols. Each has its own, 'perceived recoil' characteristics. It's really up to you as the shooter to teach your own body how to handle different recoil among different calibers and pistols.
Me? I've tried just about everything there is to shoot up to and including 44 magnum. My own conclusion is whether it's a Glock or a 1911, give me a full-sized 45 acp, every time! Only other suggestion I might offer is for you to fondle a G-19. You might really like it; and, especially over a G-26, it'll give you more of that confident shot placement you said you're looking for.
PS: Yes, I carry a full-sized 45 acp pistol all of the time.
This being said (and as you've mentioned) 40 caliber recoils, 'sharper' and is, thus, perceived as recoiling, 'harder' than the softer, 'pushing' 45 acp. This brings you down to the pistol's balance and overall weight; the lighter the gun is (especially towards the muzzle) the more it's going to kick.
I've fired both 9mm, 40, and 45 acp pistols. Each has its own, 'perceived recoil' characteristics. It's really up to you as the shooter to teach your own body how to handle different recoil among different calibers and pistols.
Me? I've tried just about everything there is to shoot up to and including 44 magnum. My own conclusion is whether it's a Glock or a 1911, give me a full-sized 45 acp, every time! Only other suggestion I might offer is for you to fondle a G-19. You might really like it; and, especially over a G-26, it'll give you more of that confident shot placement you said you're looking for.
PS: Yes, I carry a full-sized 45 acp pistol all of the time.
Last edited:
1SOW
Member
In addition to the gun weight distribution the ammo is a big deal. Each gun's percieved recoil can be 'minimized' by shooting the right ammo.
I'm a small 62 year old and can shoot my 75b reloads weak or stronghand with fair accuracy (mostly). The felt recoil is very low. 9mm, 124gr 1060ish fps, 130 pf.
I've shot an STI 45 with 170ish PF that had less felt recoil than my 9mm CZ with my light loads.
Generally, the higher the grip, the less "flip" you'll feel, and this lowers the percieved recoil. It pushes straight back more than up and back. The same thing occurs when a .38 super with a set up muzzle brake at 1300+ fps has no flip. It pushes straight to the rear.
Stating the obvious: A heavier gun of good design will have less felt recoil than a lighter gun of the same design.
I'm a small 62 year old and can shoot my 75b reloads weak or stronghand with fair accuracy (mostly). The felt recoil is very low. 9mm, 124gr 1060ish fps, 130 pf.
I've shot an STI 45 with 170ish PF that had less felt recoil than my 9mm CZ with my light loads.
Generally, the higher the grip, the less "flip" you'll feel, and this lowers the percieved recoil. It pushes straight back more than up and back. The same thing occurs when a .38 super with a set up muzzle brake at 1300+ fps has no flip. It pushes straight to the rear.
Stating the obvious: A heavier gun of good design will have less felt recoil than a lighter gun of the same design.
earlthegoat2
Member
Recoil=subjective=perceived different by others.
Its going to be a different perspective for everyone especially if only the big 3 calibers are discussed. Maybe a Colt longslide with 9mm conversion. A Smith 52 firing mild 38 wadcutters.
Its going to be a different perspective for everyone especially if only the big 3 calibers are discussed. Maybe a Colt longslide with 9mm conversion. A Smith 52 firing mild 38 wadcutters.
gc70
Member
Weight is the factor that goes into recoil calculations. Size influences weight, but also influences grip surface, which affects perceived recoil.
Using standard ball ammo, a 10-oz. Ruger LCP .380 and a 40-oz. 1911 .45 both produce about 5.5 ft/lbs of free recoil energy. Technically, the recoil impulse is about twice as heavy for the .45 compared to the .380, but the recoil velocity of the .380 is about twice as fast. So the 1911 has a big push and the LCP has a sharp snap. Add the fact that the LCP's recoil is concentrated on a grip area that contacts maybe a third of the skin area that a 1911 grip contacts, and the LCP really stings the hand.
So, for whatever size gun fits your needs, the heaviest gun in that size will technically have the lightest recoil, although how the gun's grip fits your hand is a big factor in the way you perceive recoil.
Most people value light weight over recoil pain in sub-compacts, and even compacts, because they plan to carry them a lot more than they shoot them. There are few all-steel compacts or sub-compacts in current production; two that come to mind are the Walther PPK in .380 and Kahr MP9 in 9mm.
alfack
Member
Wow, this is one thread where I see some really good suggestions that aren't caliber war or brand loyalty motivated.
I have a 92FS and it is tame. I also have the PX4 subcompact, in 9mm, and have to say that it is the mellowest polymer framed subcompact I have ever fired. I will admit that it is large to be considered subcompact, though. I also think the Bersa Thunder .380s are very mild and fun to shoot, but they are very similar to the Beretta 84 and 85 series .380s.
I have a 92FS and it is tame. I also have the PX4 subcompact, in 9mm, and have to say that it is the mellowest polymer framed subcompact I have ever fired. I will admit that it is large to be considered subcompact, though. I also think the Bersa Thunder .380s are very mild and fun to shoot, but they are very similar to the Beretta 84 and 85 series .380s.
bottom shelf
Member
The Beretta 92 is definitely pleasant to shoot, but the gentlest I've felt is what Blakenz said:
My only experience was with the 84FS, the one they call "Cheetah" I think. It's available in both single stack and double.
My only experience was with the 84FS, the one they call "Cheetah" I think. It's available in both single stack and double.
BCRider
Member
Hmmm.... given what you said in your first post in this thread I'm not sure you'd find many of the suggestions made so far all that comfy. The folks have all posted lots of good suggestions and I've shot a fair number of them, including the .45ACP Glock, and I don't really consider any of even the bigger and heavier options given to be as smooth to shoot as you seem to be wanting from your original description.
But you also said that you're a low time/low rounds count shootist at this point. It may be that you just need to shoot more.
For example I was still catching myself flinching noticably here and there at 4 months into this sport and with around 3000 rounds down the pipes of various handguns.
Two things finally licked this for me. The first was getting a nice little .22 semi that sat beside my CZ 9mm on the shooting bench. Two magazines of .22 would be sent downrange while I concentrated on the sights, proper and CONSISTENT holding and squeezing the trigger with a proper follow through. Then I'd pick up the 9mm and shoot a magazine of that. A dozen or so sessions of this over a few weeks really helped a lot with becoming far more "accepting" of the kick from center fire handguns. The second aspect that really kicked the flinch and discomfort out the window was shooting in my first couple of competitions. These were both low key club level matches. One being a speed steel shoot and the other a club level IPSC match that let me in after my original teacher put me through a holster qualification session. The pressure to reach out and hit the targets turns your focus away from the recoil in your hands and onto the task. Recoil and flinch magically lose their importance and effect. And while a match can in no way come close to the adrenaline and pressure of a live defensive situation it DOES at least generate a little of the same pressure by demanding you perform in a short period of time. As such it's as close as we can get without attending some specialized handgun defensive training courses. Did I mention that shooting in things like club matches, IPSC and IDPA is also a complete hoot as well?
The gun options have all been well discussed in the previous 3 pages of replies but I think that you're still expecting to find something magical that is small, light and kicks softly. It ain't gonna happen. There are minor variations in how they all kick and I have to agree about those that said that the big Glock .45 is a softer option but it's still got a healthy push and it's relatively huge if you're expecting to carry it concealed. No semi I've shot, about 25'ish of them so far, has what I would call a soft recoil from what you described in your first post.
My own standard for what I consider a pleasantly soft recoil is .38Spl out of a K frame S&W revolver. Now THOSE are a delight. Try one if you get a chance. It's a big step up from .22 but doesn't have the kick or muzzle lift of any of the center fire semi pistols in 9mm and up. All the rest of the options I've got or have tried are up in recoil from that point.
But basically you just need to shoot a lot more and use "tricks" like alternating with a .22 and attending some matches so you learn to focus on the results and not the byproducts of shooting. And that comes from getting out and shooting lots. I'm not sure when it happened but likely somewhere around the 5000 to 6000 round mark and with about 4 different shooting matches under my belt I realized that I wasn't flinching anymore and that I no longer noticed the recoil except as something that just happens. I found I was actually enjoying the recoil at that point along with seeing the hole appear really close to where I aimed or hearing the DING! of the steel plate in a match.
But you also said that you're a low time/low rounds count shootist at this point. It may be that you just need to shoot more.
For example I was still catching myself flinching noticably here and there at 4 months into this sport and with around 3000 rounds down the pipes of various handguns.
Two things finally licked this for me. The first was getting a nice little .22 semi that sat beside my CZ 9mm on the shooting bench. Two magazines of .22 would be sent downrange while I concentrated on the sights, proper and CONSISTENT holding and squeezing the trigger with a proper follow through. Then I'd pick up the 9mm and shoot a magazine of that. A dozen or so sessions of this over a few weeks really helped a lot with becoming far more "accepting" of the kick from center fire handguns. The second aspect that really kicked the flinch and discomfort out the window was shooting in my first couple of competitions. These were both low key club level matches. One being a speed steel shoot and the other a club level IPSC match that let me in after my original teacher put me through a holster qualification session. The pressure to reach out and hit the targets turns your focus away from the recoil in your hands and onto the task. Recoil and flinch magically lose their importance and effect. And while a match can in no way come close to the adrenaline and pressure of a live defensive situation it DOES at least generate a little of the same pressure by demanding you perform in a short period of time. As such it's as close as we can get without attending some specialized handgun defensive training courses. Did I mention that shooting in things like club matches, IPSC and IDPA is also a complete hoot as well?
The gun options have all been well discussed in the previous 3 pages of replies but I think that you're still expecting to find something magical that is small, light and kicks softly. It ain't gonna happen. There are minor variations in how they all kick and I have to agree about those that said that the big Glock .45 is a softer option but it's still got a healthy push and it's relatively huge if you're expecting to carry it concealed. No semi I've shot, about 25'ish of them so far, has what I would call a soft recoil from what you described in your first post.
My own standard for what I consider a pleasantly soft recoil is .38Spl out of a K frame S&W revolver. Now THOSE are a delight. Try one if you get a chance. It's a big step up from .22 but doesn't have the kick or muzzle lift of any of the center fire semi pistols in 9mm and up. All the rest of the options I've got or have tried are up in recoil from that point.
But basically you just need to shoot a lot more and use "tricks" like alternating with a .22 and attending some matches so you learn to focus on the results and not the byproducts of shooting. And that comes from getting out and shooting lots. I'm not sure when it happened but likely somewhere around the 5000 to 6000 round mark and with about 4 different shooting matches under my belt I realized that I wasn't flinching anymore and that I no longer noticed the recoil except as something that just happens. I found I was actually enjoying the recoil at that point along with seeing the hole appear really close to where I aimed or hearing the DING! of the steel plate in a match.
benderx4
Member
My HK USP9 Elite feels like you're shooting a .22.
Mad Magyar
Member
Try a 9mm Largo in a Star pistol...You'll see accuracy & a mild recoil...
You can get soft shooting autos by several means.
First, assume the same caliber. A handgun is generally less punishing when:
The above a just some of the ways to find less punishing autos.
First, assume the same caliber. A handgun is generally less punishing when:
- It has a higher bore axis. The recoil rolls upward, instead of backward into the hand.
- The weight is increased. All steel handguns such as 1911's are heavier than their counter parts, and absorb recoil well. I personally don't believe polymers absorb much recoil by flexing during recoil. If they did flex enough to reduce recoil, they would do so in their weakest area (i.e. just ahead of the trigger guard). If that were so, the slide would bind in recoil due to misalignment of the steel inserts on the frame to the grooves of the slide.
- Some handguns such as HK have buffering recoil springs and guide rods. These do work, as I have 4 HKs with this type of system, and have noticed a difference.
- Increased surface area of the backstrap. This helps spread the pounds per square inch of force. Wide grips don't always make for great ergonomics.
The above a just some of the ways to find less punishing autos.
Last edited:
Delford
Member
Irfan: Not sure what you mean by your question. The 1911 recoils more but as stated in many of the posts above the size and weight of the frame may mitigate the felt recoil. The same is true in a 9mm. So the mass of the 1911 may have less perceived recoil than the CZ-75.
I have shot the RIA 1911 and the S&W M&P 1911PD and I prefer my Ruger P345 to either of them. I've also shot the S&W Sigma 9VE and the Beretta M9 (92 mil spec) and while I was equally accurate after getting used to the Sigma trigger, I really like the Beretta ergonomics as it is so similar to my Ruger in handling characteristics and DA/SA. I'm looking at a 9mm because the rounds are less expensive and marginally easier to find. My current choices are down to the Stoeger Cougar 8000, the Bersa Thunder 9mm, the Beretta 92 and possibly the Glock 19. I probably would CC IWB occasionally as I do with the P345.
I have shot the RIA 1911 and the S&W M&P 1911PD and I prefer my Ruger P345 to either of them. I've also shot the S&W Sigma 9VE and the Beretta M9 (92 mil spec) and while I was equally accurate after getting used to the Sigma trigger, I really like the Beretta ergonomics as it is so similar to my Ruger in handling characteristics and DA/SA. I'm looking at a 9mm because the rounds are less expensive and marginally easier to find. My current choices are down to the Stoeger Cougar 8000, the Bersa Thunder 9mm, the Beretta 92 and possibly the Glock 19. I probably would CC IWB occasionally as I do with the P345.
This past Friday, Lock-N-Load's R. Lee Ermey's shot a Glock and in slow mo, I was amazed to see how much flex there was. If the opening frames of the video below were just a teeny bit longer, you'd see it. Maybe someone's got a longer version. IIRC, the whole front of the gun seemed to warp under the impulse of the recoil - like it was made out of rubber. Made me wonder how they're as accurate as they are! I'm guessing it'd take a lot of hoss to make the gun warp like that, so I'm also guessing they absorb some recoil energy through the process.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp2Ig-58P_E
I can see the flex, and would like to see it in slow motion. I've been wrong before.
Edited: Or maybe not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDT8-0VlSxI
Still don't see where there is enough flex to matter. What you will see in this you tube is more vibration in the frame, once the slide has slammed to the rear.
Remember, if it flexes too much, the rails on the frame will bind with the grooves in the slide.
Edited: Or maybe not:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDT8-0VlSxI
Still don't see where there is enough flex to matter. What you will see in this you tube is more vibration in the frame, once the slide has slammed to the rear.
Remember, if it flexes too much, the rails on the frame will bind with the grooves in the slide.
Last edited:
So to add to the list of least recoiling (punishing) center fire autos, mine is an HK USP Elite in 9mm.
- It has a high bore axis.
- It has a 6" barrel, so the weight is there.
- It has a buffering recoil spring and guide rod.
- It has a wide back strap.
The standard Government 1911 will recoil more. Both are all-steel autos. Both have a moderately high-moderately low bore axis. Yet, the .45 ACP hard ball is a 230 grain bullet. What ever goes forward causes something to go backwards equally.
Last edited:
1SOW
Member
Maybe we're not talking about your objective.
What is the problem with recoil?
Is it pain, or is it sight/target acquisition that is the concern.
Our replies have touched on both of these.
The bigger calibers with faster loads hurt more and are harder stay on/reacquire the target.
The gun design and weight will make a difference for both.
The ammunition 'load'/speed will make a difference for both.
The shooter's size and strength will make a difference for mostly target reacquisition.
Proper grip and stance will make a difference for both.
Nobody here can tell you what will work for YOU. They can only tell you what works for them. The guns recommended here are good guns.
For SD you want the largest caliber and load you are comfortably able to shoot accurately.
What is the problem with recoil?
Is it pain, or is it sight/target acquisition that is the concern.
Our replies have touched on both of these.
The bigger calibers with faster loads hurt more and are harder stay on/reacquire the target.
The gun design and weight will make a difference for both.
The ammunition 'load'/speed will make a difference for both.
The shooter's size and strength will make a difference for mostly target reacquisition.
Proper grip and stance will make a difference for both.
Nobody here can tell you what will work for YOU. They can only tell you what works for them. The guns recommended here are good guns.
For SD you want the largest caliber and load you are comfortably able to shoot accurately.
Quentin
Member
I'd also have to say get a heavy all steel 9mm like those mentioned above. My Hi-Power doesn't kick bad at all. And after adding Hogue rubber grips to it, its recoil is even softer. You might want to try rubber grips on your XD.
chieftain
Member
5" barrel or Government model all steel 1911 in 9mm. Mine is almost like shooting an Air Soft with a loud bang.
My all steel Service ACE is a pretty gentle shooter too.
I am sure some of the all steel SIG's in 9mm would be very gentle too.
Good luck.
Fred
My all steel Service ACE is a pretty gentle shooter too.
I am sure some of the all steel SIG's in 9mm would be very gentle too.
Good luck.
Fred
- Status
