States being considered for Libertarian utopia
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Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I've been trying to talk my wife into Wyoming and Montana for years (I love snow.) To be honest, I was under the impression that these are already good places to live away from large cities and do your own thing. I have delusions of forging knives and writing for a living.
If I moved there, I would vote my way. But I have to agree with those who've cautioned against a bunch of self-proclaimed Libertarians from Chicago, Miami, and New York rushing into these places and telling the residents, essentially, that they've been doing it wrong but it's OK because we're here to help.
(And when I was considering a move to Tennessee or Texas, I promised on a Bible never to utter the words "That's not how we do it back home.")
If I moved there, I would vote my way. But I have to agree with those who've cautioned against a bunch of self-proclaimed Libertarians from Chicago, Miami, and New York rushing into these places and telling the residents, essentially, that they've been doing it wrong but it's OK because we're here to help.
(And when I was considering a move to Tennessee or Texas, I promised on a Bible never to utter the words "That's not how we do it back home.")
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
That said, a short defense of the FSP:
People are asking about 20,000, but that's a minimum number. IF (there's that word again) the project is even somewhat successful, I assume the idea is to attract ever-more immigrants. 20,000 is the number they set to trigger the mass move to the state, probably mostly so that people would have to agree to move within a set timetable. That, of course, begs the question of what will force these people to honor their agreement. It's hard enough to get people to follow through on a phone call to their Congressman. How will they ensure that the 20,000 who promise to move will actually do so?
They seem to recognize that the fear of being the only one to uproot and move to a strange place is their main stumbling block in recruiting, but they haven't found a solution yet. I don't have one either, I'm just pointing this out.
People are asking about 20,000, but that's a minimum number. IF (there's that word again) the project is even somewhat successful, I assume the idea is to attract ever-more immigrants. 20,000 is the number they set to trigger the mass move to the state, probably mostly so that people would have to agree to move within a set timetable. That, of course, begs the question of what will force these people to honor their agreement. It's hard enough to get people to follow through on a phone call to their Congressman. How will they ensure that the 20,000 who promise to move will actually do so?
They seem to recognize that the fear of being the only one to uproot and move to a strange place is their main stumbling block in recruiting, but they haven't found a solution yet. I don't have one either, I'm just pointing this out.
dance varmint
Member
My concerns about the whole concept are (1) they may be ignoring the dynamics of politics--how will the residents of the state react to a mass influx of libertarians and anarchists, and how would that negate the FSP goal; (2) not all 20,000 or so members would be fully committed, or spouses would squelch the idea of moving; (3) would it become a cult like the Branch Davidians, the Nike-wearing poison drinkers, or assorted communist utopias, with a fanatical leader or a fatal power struggle (Lenin/Trotsky) at the top.
rock jock
Member
My biggest concern with the FSP is that when it fails (and it will, no doubt at all in my mind) it will discourage future acts of civil disobediance by patriots. The statists will hold the FSP up as an example of why big govt is necessary.
If there are 20,000 actual libertarians, I would be surprised. Probably more like about 120.
Regardless, whatever number there are, the way to make a change is right at home. Bite the bullet and work within whatever system you find yourself in. If the individual can rise (aye, there's the rub) then they can begin to steer things in whatever direction they see fit. Trying to run away and hide with like minded? (cough) libertarians smacks of timidity and faintheartedness to me.
Regardless, whatever number there are, the way to make a change is right at home. Bite the bullet and work within whatever system you find yourself in. If the individual can rise (aye, there's the rub) then they can begin to steer things in whatever direction they see fit. Trying to run away and hide with like minded? (cough) libertarians smacks of timidity and faintheartedness to me.
The point of our attitude has been discussed quite a bit - we realize that arrogance is a sure path to failure. What we have to do as a group is to bring other people to support us. We have to show them in a friendly and non-confrontational way that more freedom will make for a better community. It's really quite similar to the "get a newbie shooting" actions that so many THRers engage in.
Keep in mind that the FSP doesn't want just people who acgree with us, we want activists who agree with us. We can't just take our 20,00 members, hunker down, and try to change the system. We have to become an appealing alternative for the population of the state. The philosophy of freedom doesn't conflict with western or rural culture; freedom enhances and strengthens it. That is what we need to convey to people.
As for the economy, I'm not worried. We're a very skilled and well-rounded group. Sure, we have some members who are professional writers - Vin Suprynowicz, Claire Wolfe, Boston T Party - but most of the members have skills that will not just allow them to survive in a new state, but help that state grow and prosper.
The state research is mostly contained in the State Reports, found at the bottom of http://www.freestateproject.org/articles.htm .
rock jock and BigG - I don't think that the possibility of failure is a valid reason to give up. We will never be guaranteed success - we must take a risk if we want to get a reward.
Don - There is nothing holding people to the FSP contract besides their word. I don't think too many people will sign up who aren't actually planning to follow through. One big problem with conventional letter-writing activism is that there is no perceived benefit from it. With the FSP, we hope to produce serious, visible changes. Between that and the encouragement of 19,999 other members, I think we will be able to muster a lot of energy.
Keep in mind that the FSP doesn't want just people who acgree with us, we want activists who agree with us. We can't just take our 20,00 members, hunker down, and try to change the system. We have to become an appealing alternative for the population of the state. The philosophy of freedom doesn't conflict with western or rural culture; freedom enhances and strengthens it. That is what we need to convey to people.
As for the economy, I'm not worried. We're a very skilled and well-rounded group. Sure, we have some members who are professional writers - Vin Suprynowicz, Claire Wolfe, Boston T Party - but most of the members have skills that will not just allow them to survive in a new state, but help that state grow and prosper.
The state research is mostly contained in the State Reports, found at the bottom of http://www.freestateproject.org/articles.htm .
rock jock and BigG - I don't think that the possibility of failure is a valid reason to give up. We will never be guaranteed success - we must take a risk if we want to get a reward.
Don - There is nothing holding people to the FSP contract besides their word. I don't think too many people will sign up who aren't actually planning to follow through. One big problem with conventional letter-writing activism is that there is no perceived benefit from it. With the FSP, we hope to produce serious, visible changes. Between that and the encouragement of 19,999 other members, I think we will be able to muster a lot of energy.
BigG - The FSP is not a Libertarian venture, it is a pro-freedom venture. The Project has attracted a large number of conservative, Goldwater-esque Republicans and even a few like-minded Democrats.
At any rate, we already have nearly 3,400 members, so there are a few more of us around than you think.
Don't get me wrong. I do NOT say give up. I say you need to be a hell of a lot more subtle and above all to count the cost before you go public with some sort of scheme like this. I am not against yewt, but a 26 year-old anything will not inspire confidence in anybody. I would lose him as a spokesperson or figurehead for the movement. Even Jesus Christ was not accepted and Alexander had to crush the Thebans utterly to prove he was serious about leading the Persian Expedition. This undertaking is serious, you will have a hard time selling it, that's all I'm saying.
rock jock
Member
That's a good attitude and I commend you for it. In fact, I hope that the FSP actually comes to fruition. I forecast failure not because I don't think you can succeed in implementing the project, but rather because I think the final result will be a disaster. This is based on my belief that no society can exist long or prosper without a moral foundation. Absent a like-minded community that ostracizes the wayward and exercises pressure to ensure conformity to these moral standards, laws are the only alternative and in fact are the historically preferred form of maintaining compliance. Now, we can argue all day about the appropriateness of having any standards set by a community that restrict individual behavior or the proper role of govt. in enforcing those standards, but it really is not necessary. I know the points made by the other side of the debate and you may or may not know, or care, about mine. It basically comes down to one's individual belief-system on the nature of man. I would say, however, that a society based on a Judeo-Christian moral construct is how this country was founded and it has been very successful so far. The long-term effects of a "free" society totally devoid of any moral construct are still theoretical. Still, I would be interested in seeing this massive experiment in libertarian philosophy take place on a grand scale. If nothing else, it would really give the statists some heartburn.
longeyes
member
Great idea but remember the Fifth Law of Political Thermodynamics:
Any state that is attractive eventually turns into California.
You'll find this in the chapter on entropy.
Any state that is attractive eventually turns into California.
You'll find this in the chapter on entropy.
Y'know, what we want to do isn'y experimental any more. The Founding Fathers already proved that it can work, and have fantastic results. Unfortunately, the system they set up has drifted far from its original nature. We just want to bring back what they created. I'm not sure how this would be detrimental to a community's moral standards.
Chris Rhines
Member
I would urge anyone here with any interest in the FSP to head on over to www.freestateproject.com and check out the forums and articles. There has been a huge amount of independent research and discussion on the project, and more insight is always welcome.
- Chris
- Chris
Zander
member
Agreed. Nice analysis...
This seems to be a direct contradiction of rock jock's main point. Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles, a fact that never fails to induce palpitations in certain sub-segments of the population.
I suspect the grand experiment would have gone quite differently had it not been.
I'm all for the FSP experiment but will be observing only.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
I've always found that a person can pretty much make a decent living, any old where. The idea is to figure out what talent you can sell in some particular location. It's a lot easier for many folks, now, with the Internet than it was back forty years ago. A competent or better-than-competent worker can generally make out in "New Country".
And you don't have to be a FS activist to move to wherever they wind up going. Howsomever, life oughta be a lot more interesting in country with a buncha Claire Wolfe types moving in.
Like I say, the only thing that keeps me out of this particular game is the fact that I want my hard water from that white box in my kitchen.
, Art
And you don't have to be a FS activist to move to wherever they wind up going. Howsomever, life oughta be a lot more interesting in country with a buncha Claire Wolfe types moving in.
Like I say, the only thing that keeps me out of this particular game is the fact that I want my hard water from that white box in my kitchen.
, ArtI don't care if the kid is only 26 years old (okay, I do care a little), the premise is brilliant. Just start with one state where like-minded folk can live to escape many of the daily irritations and restrictions....it really is a cool idea. And I'd guess the "assimilation" concerns are overblown, because most of the locals in the states under discussion would share the same beliefs, and the "newcomers" philosphy would not be imposing thought control but eliminating it. My hunch is that the "job thing" will probably keep it from succeeding, but you've got my best wishes.
It's fun to think about what the liberal equivalent of such a state would be. Your health care, education, and housing would all be free, or nearly so. Unfortunately, your state income and property taxes would exceed your take-home pay. Of course, most of the residents wouldn't have a job in the first place, so what's the problem.
It's fun to think about what the liberal equivalent of such a state would be. Your health care, education, and housing would all be free, or nearly so. Unfortunately, your state income and property taxes would exceed your take-home pay. Of course, most of the residents wouldn't have a job in the first place, so what's the problem.
Scott Evans
Moderator Emeritus
Sounds like a modern crusade for holy ground.
Philosophically what sticks me with this plan is that it is nothing less then a grand surrender of the rest of the nation. Put all the salt in one spot and the entire piece of meat will rot anyway. Our influence cannot be isolated to one or two states. ALL of the US is the hallowed inheritance of liberty. I’m not willing to give any of it back.
Live where you want … because you like it there but don’t become part of a scam effort (and that is just how this would be perceived if it were to gain measurable momentum) that will leave the targeted state with no national credibility. Increase our numbers where you are. Influence the state where you are.
Philosophically what sticks me with this plan is that it is nothing less then a grand surrender of the rest of the nation. Put all the salt in one spot and the entire piece of meat will rot anyway. Our influence cannot be isolated to one or two states. ALL of the US is the hallowed inheritance of liberty. I’m not willing to give any of it back.
Live where you want … because you like it there but don’t become part of a scam effort (and that is just how this would be perceived if it were to gain measurable momentum) that will leave the targeted state with no national credibility. Increase our numbers where you are. Influence the state where you are.
stevelyn
Member
I'd be willing to go anywhere I can live freely, without govt interference, keep what I earn, and not be a slave to govt.
Tamara
Senior Member
Scott,
I think most of its participants would view it more as an exodus from the land of bondage to the promised land.
I think most of its participants would view it more as an exodus from the land of bondage to the promised land.
Scott Evans
Moderator Emeritus
“O … who will come and go with me … I’m bound for the …â€
The way I see it, Diesle, the FSP is the modern proof-of-concept for freedom. Often, when discussing politics with someone, they take the attitude of "all that libertarian stuff sounds fine, but it's never happened anywhere." If the FSP works, it will be a great answer to those people. "Look - it works here, and we're propering despite a national depression." We have to start somewhere meaningful. I think the FSP is the optimal balance between audacity and practicality. A city is too small to have much effect, and the whole nation is too much to hold on to.
Scott - It's not a surrender, more like a retreat and regrouping. Our lines, to continue the military analogy, are spread too thin to hold the whole country - we have to choose the best defensive position and concentrate there. If we succeed, then our ideas will spread of their own accord back into the other 49 states.
stevelyn - You and me both.
Scott - It's not a surrender, more like a retreat and regrouping. Our lines, to continue the military analogy, are spread too thin to hold the whole country - we have to choose the best defensive position and concentrate there. If we succeed, then our ideas will spread of their own accord back into the other 49 states.
stevelyn - You and me both.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I don't want to sound like I wish you failure, either, but do you remember the FOUP project on TFL? Remember Citizens of America?
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