sub moa rifles....riiiiight

[Dr.Rob]

No matter what the group size, I don't understand showing off a group that's off centerline, (unless you had a windy day).


Ranger's targets I understand. Here's the aiming point, here's the impact. You can see him 'dialing it in.'

But CZ if you are aiming at that cross... why don't you adjust your scope to hit it? To me, sure great group but it's an inch low and 3/4 right of where I'd want it. I FULLY understand sighting in to shoot an inch high (dead on at 200 etc.).

Same thing for CDignition, if you shoot consistantly 1/2 inch right, why not move the sights?

See this thread for comparison: I cover a lot of variables like trigger weight, wind, power of the scope and the dfferences between two shooters. (Where we hold on a target etc.)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=186289

 

[cameron.personal]

it is different. one is about 1 inch. the other about 2".

My point was that 1 MOA is the same at every distance.

Regardless whether it is as 25, 50, or 500yards it is still 1 MOA.

 

[CDignition]

Same thing for CDignition, if you shoot consistantly 1/2 inch right, why not move the sights?

I shoot 8" Plates at 1K yards, so trust me, I line em up when it matters...

When I shoot a target like this for groups, I want the bullets to hit out of the area my crosshairs are. This way you don't "gravitate" towards the dot and get a bad group...I also can shoot several "Groups" at a single target without changing it out...Just drop POI 2.5" and go again....


Shooting groups isn't about hitting the exact area...its about groups,lol...

 

[YodaVader]

I consider five groups of 5 shots each to be the gold standard If on the same outing, you can shoot 5 groups of 5 and all are Sub MOA you have a sub MOA rifle

That is the exact description of what constitutes an aggregate in sanctioned benchrest. So , if at the range a shooter takes his rifle and can shoot groups in the manner as decribed above and averages an inch or less that too me would be a good indication of a MOA rifle. Hard to shoot 5 fluke groups in a row.

I agree its frustrating when people claim a rifle is SUB MOA because it once shot a sub MOA group. Even more so when it gets done "All day".

As my Savage gunsmith told me about that "all day long" line , "They must have very short days where they come from!"

My 10fp IS sub MOA, and honestly I have to be having a bad day to shoot 1MOA or more. This is with handloads off a bipod with rear bag.

Oh come on , you can't be serious!? Just kidding! But consider this - Say you fire 10 groups of 5 shots each @ 100 yards with ample time for cooling or cleaning if needed between groups. For each group that is not MOA or better you pay $10 bucks to one of the skeptics. For each group that is MOA or better they have to pay you $10. Would you take this bet with some of the doubters here? If your Savage is like mine you would more than likely be a $100 richer after the smoke has cleared.

 

[taliv]

if somebody's been shooting 3 shot groups, i'd take the skeptic side of that bet of 10 5-shot groups most of the time, although i'd qualify that by saying i'd have to be present (and i'm not driving across the country over a $100 bet) and have a neutral 3rd party measure it.

for people who claim .5 MOA, i'd take that bet almost every time.


edit: i just went through the whittington list and noticed none of the people on this list claiming to shoot sub-MOA are going. i was going to propose some bets.

 

[bluedsteel]

Ironic that this topic appeared today. My brother and I spent six consecutive hours on the bench at the range this past weekend shooting for group size with our .223's. His rifle is a Weatherby TRR with a Leupold 4.5-14X50 with the varmint hunter reticle. My rifle is a Rem 700 Varmint with a $20 Chinese scope, with chopsticks for reticles.

After about two hours of zeroing, rezeroing, and fiddling around, we competed for the best 3 shot group at 100 yards. Amazingly, I won, with a group of 9/16" against his 3/4". (He's an NRA master class shooter). However, squinting through that cheap scope gave me a migraine and severe eye strain, so I am going to find the money for a Leupold scope(6.5-20X40...gotta outdo him...). Looks like the girlfriend's diamond ring will have to be on hold again.

In any event, towards the end of the day, we each fired a five shot group. Both our groups stunk...just under 2".

We were shooting a variety of ammo. Both of us shot our best groups with Georgia Arms 52 gr. Match BTHP. The promotional Remington green box, Winchester, and PMC ammo shot relatively poorly (of course, that is what I mostly have...thought it was a "bargain".). Obviously, ammo matters...a lot.

My brother is going to relieve his barrel channel some more; I am going to get a Leupold scope (and eventually an H-S Precision stock).

So, good groups are possible, but elusive...there are a lot of variables... and you can make yourself crazy in the pursuit of consistent sub-MOA groups. I am looking at this as a learning experience about rifles and riflery...I am 50, but you're never too old to learn, right?

As far as folks claiming they always shoot into the same bullet hole at 500 yards...well...lying is somewhat endemic to the fishing and hunting crowd.

Anyway, my goal is CONSISTENT sub-MOA groups. Not there yet....but we're having fun in this quest...so far.


bluedsteel

 

[TimboKhan]

I have been keeping up with this thread and finally decided to throw in my 2/100 of a cent. Ready? Here it is: I couldn't care less about MOA. I have absolutely no problem with folks trying to get the last drop of accuracy out of their gun, and I can even derive some enjoyment from looking at someones tiny groups. It's hard to do and a worthy goal. For me, I just want to hit what I aim at. My buddy Rockstar.esq and I have a long running argument about Mini-14's, and his complaint is always that they are inaccurate. Well, that may be, but I can hit what I aim at darn near every time, and thats all I care about. So what if it is 3 moa at 100 yards? It's not a precision rifle and was never meant to be. So what if I can only shoot 2 inch groups at 300 yards? That will kill any elk that walks on earth, and thats all I care about. Accuracy is good, and fine accuracy is great, but all I care about is so-called pie-plate accuracy. If I can get shots off into that pie plate repeatedly and easily, thats all I care about. Tiny groups are swell, but I can shoot into a pie plate from any position you can name, with iron sights, at pretty decent distances all day. For me, thats good shooting. Except for prone. I am too fat and have no neck to shoot from prone, lol...

 

[Dr.Rob]

I don't think anyone was trying to start a pissing match.

The reason I dial my rifle in at the range is so that I know exactly where it's hitting when I draw down on game.

MOA and 'good enough for deer' are not exactly light years apart. To me, the smaller I get that group down it gives me more confidence to shoot at longer range. Nothing shrinks those groups like removing variables (ie shoot the same ammo all the time) and practice.

Some say shooting on the bench does nothing... I'd say it's sure better than not shooting at all. Shooting from the bench is mostly about seeing how accurate your rifle is, and partially about your form.

Shooting out in the woods is mostly about form, but it sure helps to have an accurate rifle.

 

[~z]

Uhhh, a 2 inch groups at 300 yards IS sub MOA
~z

 

[aubie515]

I agree with Doc Rob in that bench shooting will tell you what your rifle is capable of shooting. If you remove the variables out of the equation, you can focus on your rifle. Once you learn what type of groups you will produce with factory or your reloads, then it' time to practice shooting in other positions.

I also believe that one should use 5 shot groups instead of the 3 shot groups. To me, shooting 3 rounds does nothing for me and I'm not afraid if I have an off day and have a flier. It happens to the best of us and some days...you just "don't have it" to shoot a good group.

Too many wannabe's on the internet with their "claims" and there is no way to verify their information. I've seen people post pictures of "groups" that they measured incorrectly. You get both ends of the spectrum on the internet. There are some very skilled shooters to the not so talented shooters.

I disagree with the OP because I have owned a few sub MOA rifles. If there are sub MOA rifles that are older than 20 years old. What makes you think that today's modern rifles aren't as good or better than 20 year old technology?

I'm done with this thread...so you kids that want to continue the arguement...play nice.

 

[Zak Smith]

Bench? We don't need a bench!


............... Larger version of above photo.

 

[bluto]

Enjoyable thread.

Since I'm not a hunter, just a recreational target shooter (pistols mostly) MOA and sub MOA claims were a consideration when I was deciding to purchase a rifle. I did my homework and had a Harris M86 .308 built to my specifications. It came with a sub-MOA guarantee and seems to have lived up to its claims. Extremely easy rifle to shoot.

My daughter was shooting sub MOA 3 shot groups at 100 yards with it her first time using a rifle.

BTW, I've shot next to quite a few dedicated shooters who seem to produce consistently impressive groups with much less expensive equipment than mine.
I believe that off the shelf sub MOA rifles are definitely available.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

I keep trying to get sub moa groups but keep getting 2.5" to 3" groups at 200 yards. But shooting 20 shot groups I always seem to get a few flyers in that so it kills me making it. I do not know if I ever will as my eyes are getting worse with open sighted ar15's.

 

[trueblue1776]

Kir-
Your point is not lost on me, 90% of the shooters I know don't even have a decent Rem 700 (or comparable rifle). So the guys I shoot with are boasting about their SKS with a fiberforce stock and air rifle scope. Or there is the Wal-Mart Rem 710 crowd with the biggest scopes you could imagine, as long as they can get them for less than 80 bucks. To me the two shooters represent the average weekend warrior, they probably both know more about MS Excel than shooting technique. I could care less about accuracy claims as we all hunt in the bush down here, so 12 MOA is a deer killing machine in these woods.
A 3 MOA rifle is something special to me, I'll give two inches and save a grand.

If you didn't get it, compared to everybody here I am a BAD rifleman, no need to point it out, I kill pigs, deer, quail, dove, and squirrel with my horrible accuracy.

 

[Geno]

Here is an interesting website:

http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/about_the_barrels.php

They manufacture some pretty cool firearms and barrels.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Bench? We don't need a bench!

Zak, I really wish you wouldn't have posted that picture...Now I'm extremely jealous that I have nothing even close to that where I live. I have 1 crappy range and 1 decent one and thats it.:banghead:

Thats just looks like so much fun.

 

[Afy]

I want a Sako TRG 42 ... and am now seriously thinking about trading in my .222 Remmington Magnum and .300 Winchester plus adding a pile of money to get one...

Sub MOA....Sub MOA.... SUB MOA I want Sub MOA.

Trueblue: BTW my Excel Skills suck but I am pretty good at BizTalk...

 

[JonB]

[sarcasm]

EVERYONE has a sub-MoA rifle - just ask them. Seriously, haven't you read all the posts on THR, ar15com or other forums? People wouldn't LIE on the internet would they? What would be the point of that?

[/sarcasm]

 

[bowfin]

Out of 15-20 rifles, I think I have one that I could tell you would be sub MOA on any given day, and that is a custom built 7mm Rem Mag with a Shilen barrel and a Texas Magnum action.

About a third of them might be capable (The Remington 700s and the like), but since most are milsurp and deer rifles, I never pursued tweaking the rifles and loads to anything under 2 MOA for the deer rifles. Several of the deer rifles have shot less than 1" groups at times, but to me, sub MOA means that they would do that 90% of the time, and they haven't.

I would be disappointed in this day and age if I bought a fairly nice varmint rifle and it didn't shoot under 1" with at least one load. I think that is a lot more attainable than it was years ago.

 

[bowfin]

No matter what the group size, I don't understand showing off a group that's off centerline, (unless you had a windy day).

Most benchrest shooters and those testing for absolute accuracy don't want the bullseye to change from one shot to another by having holes in it, thereby changing its size and/or shape. They purposely keep the group from impacting on their aiming point by having it shoot a couple of inches off the bullseye.

Four shots from a .30 caliber rifle on a 1" bullseye can pretty much wipe it out, and then what do you use for an aiming point for that all important fifth shot to round out your group?

 

[MinnMooney]

The right ammo

I have to agree with the thread starter that everyone seems to brag too much w/o putting qualifiers on their claims.
I have sub-MOA targets for every one of my guns - both light barreled hunters and bull-barreled varminters.............BUT - The difference is that the hunting rifles can only do it 1 in 10 while my Savage LRPV (.22-250) can do it 90% of the time (sub-.5 MOA 25% of the time).
Let's set some parameters :
1.) the BEST ammo for THAT rifle
2.) reasonably calm day
3.) 5-shot groups (not those lucky 3-shot'rs like some gun writers like to brag about).
4.) I do MY part - which sometimes is just not the case and I KNOW while I'm shooting!

If I ever find a new rifle that won't shoot 1.5 MOA consistantly - I get rid of it. Even my T/C Omega blk powder shoots 3 MOA but that's open sights so it's probably just me.

 

[Erud]

I realize that this topic has just about run it's course, but I just wanted to add my $.02, and possibly brag just a little. 1MOA is definitely attainable, as is 1/2MOA - just a little harder. I have had several rifles that would shoot sub-MOA regularly. I don't tend to keep rifles for very long if they do not shoot well. My current favorite rifle is a GAP Crusader in .308 - same as CDiprecision, just with a different stock. This rifle has been fired exactly 483 times, and I have targets to show for 458 of those rounds - remainder were at improvised targets(rocks, chunks of concrete, etc). I typically shoot 5-shot groups, but there are a few larger groups(10-15 rounds) mixed in as well. All groups were fired from a wooden bench with a Harris bipod and a rear sandbag from distances from 100 - 400 yards. Of all of these groups, there are only 4 that are larger than MOA, and those not by much. To be fair, one of the over MOA groups was a 10-shot 300yd group that measured a hair over MOA(3.084" C-to-C), one was a 400 yd group shot by my Dad(not familiar with my rifle) that measured 5.678" and the last 2 were just slightly over MOA with no excuses. I have not averaged all of the groups shot with this, but I'd guess it's right around 1/2 MOA for the life of the gun so far. This rifle cost me a lot and I worked hard to pay for it. I also practice often with this gun - I would be disappointed if it did not shoot like this. In 3 more weeks I will have access to a 1000-yd range - then the real fun begins. There are many people and guns out there that can shoot sub-MOA, and you can too, with the right equipment and practice.

Erud

 

[Nhsport]

Group size can be a subject of considerable entertainment. Guys streaching the truth is one thing but it just kills me when they actully believe the BS themselves.
Back several months I was at the indoor range at my club on a cold day and another member was setting up a scope on an air rifle.
After some shots and some running of the target back and forth this guy comes around the side of the booth and shows me a target with one hole dead center in the bull. "look at that group!" says the proud owner of the air rifle. "how many shots?" I ask----The guy looks kind of confused and says "Well just the one." -----OK


To me three shot groups are as likely to be the result of luck as they are due to good shooting,ammo,and firearm. If you show me a bunch of 3 shot groups shot in a row or a couple of 10 shot groups without any flyers I will start to pay attention.

I belong to a club with 275 members,about 100 of them shooters. I do like most of these men and women but there isn't but about 5 of them that I pay any attention at all to when they start talking group size because most of them just don't grasp the concept. When someone starts to run their mouth I just say " I would like to see that on the range"

 

[~z]

Sorry, I can’t take it any more. Yes, people lie. Yes, folks think it will make them seem a better person if they tell this lie. Yes, they are trying to impress YOU.

But honestly...if they spend time with their gear, learn it, care for it, and appreciate the strengths and weaknesses of their selves and equipment, and practice for the purpose of refining the craft and not just to make noise.

Sub MOA is not difficult to achieve with modern equipment. First you must learn the craft; you will never out shoot your gear, but once you gain the proficiency to know where the flyer came from...

~z

 

[NC-Mike]

I like to put up a 8" splatter target at 100 yards and shoot a Mosin or Mauser with iron sights at it. If I stay on that 8" target, I'm more than happy.